Author Topic: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007  (Read 5902 times)

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Offline Simon

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Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« on: December 15, 2007, 05:18:09 PM »
Despite the foul weather, around seven thousand people converged on London on the 8th December 2007 for the Campaign Against Climate Change march and rally, timed to coincide with the international climate change talks in Bali. My (rather clever, I thought) home-made placard, pointing out that “this planet has no emergency exits”, unfortunately disintegrated in the rain before the march even started, due to my failure to include waterproofing in the design. I’d always thought it a tried and tested design, but this was the first time it had been subjected to such inclement weather conditions.

On a brighter note, I was able to secure a prime position at the rally, right in front of the middle of the stage, and am able to bring to you this video clip of excerpts from the speeches.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/3Y4S7jzulhw" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/3Y4S7jzulhw</a>

Jonathan Neil was the first speaker after Seize the day had played a few songs to welcome the marchers arriving in Grosvenor Square, and he had some numbers to share about the international aspect of this international day of action against climate change. There had been demonstrations in forty-five countries so far that day. Five thousand people in New Zealand, ten thousand in Taiwan, two thousand in Uganda and more in ten countries across Africa, plus Jordan, Gaza, Morocco, Lebanon and Dubai. More demonstrations in Bangladesh, Sri Lanka, Nepal, India, Istanbul, Athens and Berlin. And that was before the demonstrations due to happen in Latin America and in thirty three cities in Canada.

Labour MP and former environment minister Michael Meacher was next on the stage. He speculated that now that the US intelligence agencies had discovered that Iran was not actually making any nuclear weapons, maybe they would discover that mankind was causing climate change, and that the US, with less than 5% of the global population, is causing 25% of the damage. If we want the developing world to reduce their emissions, then we need to reduce our own emissions, massively and rapidly. Our record on renewable energy, he said, was pathetic. Compared to the rest of Europe, where between 15 and 50% of energy demand is being met by renewables, in this country the figure is only 4%, when we have more capacity for renewable energy than the rest of Europe put together and we’re hardly using any of it. He suggested that we need a massive programme of offshore wind energy, green tarrifs, and micro-generation in every home. On the government’s Climate Change Bill, he said that it was not enough to have a leisurely five yearly review of emissions, we need annual targets. There is not much use, he said, in having a Climate Change Bill, if in the next breath the government gives the go-ahead for a third runway at Heathrow airport, tripling of airport capacity by 2030, and annexing a million acres of seabed off Antarctica to secure the remaining oil supplies. In a hypothetical conversation with Prime Minister Gordon Brown, he said, “Gordon, if you’re so keen on renewable energy as you said in your speech three weeks ago, how come you’re undermining it by promoting nuclear energy?”

Fraser Winterbottom, one of the Christian Aid campaigners who took part in the Cut the Carbon march in October, told the rally about the three most common questions he and his fellow marchers had been asked. Firstly, why are Christian Aid involved in a political campaign? The response was that in Kenya, where the rainfall can no longer be relied upon, where there used to be lots of subsistence farmers, now 80% of people rely on aid. In the Philippines and Bangladesh, people are losing their livelihoods, their families and their lives to floods. The second question, one which Gordon Brown made the mistake of asking, was “How are your feet?”, to which one of the marchers responded, “I’m not here at the Labour Party conference to talk about my feet. I’m here because my people are dying. Please do something about it.” The final question was, what can we do about it? We can lobby our politicians much harder, he said. We need a strong climate change bill, we need 80% cuts in emissions, we need strong international co-operation in Bali.

The third speaker was Sophie Stevens from the Camp for Climate Action, with so much to talk about and only two minutes to talk about it in. She wanted to talk about the inspirational time she had at the Climate Camp next to Heathrow airport, about taking direct action at BAA, about climate change profiteers, about the fossil fuel industry who are trying to steal the debate on climate change, about the hypocrisy of a government that has climate change talks in Bali and at the same time pushes ahead with a new wave of coal-fired power stations, and widening the M1, and building a third runway at Heathrow. Talking about plastic bags, she said, is deliberately missing the point. She wanted to talk about shutting things down when we have to, even if it means shareholders losing profits, about how climate change and capitalism are intertwined, both being born in the industrial revolution, and how we cannot tackle one without tackling the other. She wanted to talk about the madness of thinking that we can have economic growth forever when the planet is finite. She wanted to talk about marching not being enough, about what might have happened if, before the invasion of Iraq, instead of marching in line, if we’d all gone to Fairford air base and occupied the runway.

Biofuels are a climate justice issue, a human justice issue and a social justice issue, said Andrew Boswell from Biofuel Watch. European policy on biofuels is driving deforestation, and if we do not stop them then everything else we do as a movement becomes irrelevant. Due to the expansion of biofuel production, he said, millions of hectares of forest in Indonesia and Malaysia are being destroyed to make way for biofuel plantations to feed European cars. The New Scientist magazine had reported the previous month that palm oil biodiesel produced in this way causes thirty six times as much carbon emission as ordinary fossil fuels.

Chris Huhne, Lib Dem environment spokesman and leadership contender, celebrated the fact that we have just seen the first democratically elected politician, former Australian Prime Minister John Howard, defeated due to being a climate change denier. This, he said, is a warning to every politician who fails to see the future and who is mired in the past. If the Bush administration, being the only developed country which failed to send a top-level delegation to Bali, fails to rise to the occasion, then we should be talking to the successors, because there is more common sense in the little toe of each of the US presidential candidates than there is in George Bush’s whole anatomy. He said that there wasn’t a single word in Michael Meacher’s speech that he disagreed with, but that Michael was a lone voice in the Labour ranks and that Gordon Brown doesn’t have a green bone in his body. He listed a number of Gordon Brown’s failings; the third runway at Heathrow, failure to introduce tolls on road freight, letting big companies off the hook in reporting their emissions, and cuts in green taxes year in year out. He demanded that the Climate Change Bill include annual targets, that shipping and aviation be included in the targets, and that greenhouse gasses other than carbon dioxide be included in the targets.

Seize the Day then played a few more numbers before Caroline Lucas took to the stage.

Green Party MEP for the South East of England and honorary vice president of the Campaign Against Climate Change Caroline Lucas said that for the past few climate change marches we’d assembled outside the US embassy, because George Bush’s refusal to act on climate change made him guilty of crimes against humanity, but that she was thinking that we should start meeting outside Downing Street as well, because Gordon Brown is a willing accomplice to those crimes. She had a message for Gordon Brown, that he cannot continue expanding aviation and reduce greenhouse gas emissions at the same time. Climate change, she said, is a much greater threat than international terrorism, and that if the government spent a fraction of the money and commitment on tackling climate change than it spent on an illegal war in Iraq, then the world would be a much better place. Railing against the government’s support for EU policy on biofuels, she said that it is unacceptable to put the desire of car drivers in the West before the before food for people in the developing world. We want crops for food, not for fuel. We urgently need a mandatory policy framework, she said, but that must be based on science, not on what politicians say is politically feasible. She welcomed the Climate Change Bill, but said that we must challenge the targets in the bill, because as they stand they will lead to four to five degrees of warming rather than keeping below two degrees of warming. (Two degrees of warming is the tipping point identified by Mark Lynas in his book Six Degrees, at which positive feedback effects come into play, causing further warming and leading to runaway climate change.) She said that we cannot tackle climate change using the same paradigm of endless economic growth that caused the crisis in the first place, but that an alternative was available, the model of Contraction and Convergence developed by the Global Commons Institute. Caroline’s closing remark was not about changing light bulbs, or about public transport, although she acknowledged how important those are. It was about what we eat. Livestock farming, she said, accounted for as much greenhouse gas emissions as the world’s transport sector. She left us with the thought, which for me was the most memorable statement of the day, that a vegan in a 4x4 does less damage to the environment than a meat eater on a bicycle.

Zak Goldsmith, environmental spokesman for the Tory party, had been due to speak at the rally but was unable to make it, sending a written statement instead. “We know the scale of the problem, and our leaders know the scale of the problem, which makes their inaction all the more unforgivable. The words are there, but it’s business as usual for government. They worry about floods, but continue building on flood plains. They worry about emissions, but want to treble airport capacity. Where’s the vision? Where’s the sense of urgency? Where are the incentives for green choices? Where are the disincentives for pollution? People want solutions, but we can’t do it on our own. We need leadership and the government has the tools. They can radically change the tax system so that environmental destruction becomes a financial liability. Government can raise the standards of our appliances at a stroke, leading to massive savings. It can cut out the multi-billion pound subsidy to the fossil fuel industry. And it can lead by example. The government spends 125 billion pounds each year on goods and services, enough buying power to flip markets. There’s no excuse for not buying the most sustainable goods and the most sustainable services. There’s one thing we can all do to make a difference. We can pile the pressure on our leaders. We can reward courage and we can punish inaction. If the ice caps don’t do it then the ballot box will.”

Tony Kearns, deputy general secretary of the Communication Workers’ Union, said he was sick and tired of the government and other governments pandering to the motor industry and building more motorways, pandering to the aviation industry and building more runways, pandering to the nuclear lobby and building more nuclear power stations and making the world a more unsafe place. He said he was sick and tired of the government spending money on illegal wars in Iraq and Afghanistan, when the money should be spend on renewable energy and sustainable housing. “Are we going to continue this fight?” he asked the rally. “Are we going to tell the politicians and big business that this is not their planet?”, to a resounding “Yes”.

Climate change is not a slow burn issue, said Tim Helweg-Larsen, of Zero Carbon Britain, a project of the Centre for Alternative Technology. The reinforcing feedbacks, like methane release, mean that climate change is much more like a time bomb, and the clock is ticking. It’s an emergency, and there are a number of ways in which we can respond to an emergency – panic, paralysis, or galvanising ourselves to plan our way out of the hole that we’ve been digging for ourselves. He said that in this planning, we need to know what we don’t want; open-cast coal mines, more Russian gas, nuclear power, SUVs or EasyJet flights. But we need to be just as clear about what we do want; zero carbon energy, zero carbon transport, to take us between out zero carbon homes and our zero carbon businesses. He quoted some of the findings of the Zero Carbon Britain report; that we could sustain our current standard of living with half the energy that we use at the moment, and that our renewable energy potential is enormous.

Phil Thornhill, national co-ordinator of the Campaign Against Climate Change, said that each successive scientific report paints a darker picture. “The arctic ice has shrunk to 60% of what it should be, and the tropics have expanded to where they shouldn’t be before the end of the century. The Amazon is drying out. The Greenland ice sheet is melting quicker than expected. The soil and oceans are not absorbing our excess carbon as they used to, and global dimming caused by sulphites in the atmosphere disguises just how bad it really is.” While the politicians are lagging behind the science, he said, the scientists are struggling to keep up with the physical reality. He pointed out that we have a government that tells us not to boil too much water in our kettles, while it builds more roads, runways and coal-fired power stations. He ridiculed the minister who said recently that obesity is as big a problem as climate change, saying that this demonstrated just how stupid the people running the country really are. In the past week of talks at Bali, he said, the US government had not negotiated in good faith, instead scheming and manoeuvring to attract allies for its mission to wreck the talks and block meaningful progress. The scale of a climate catastrophe, he said, could dwarf all the genocides of the past century put together.

George Monbiot opened by telling the rally about a new, cheap and efficient method of carbon capture and storage, requiring no new technological development, and ready for deployment straight away. It is called, he said, Leaving Fossil Fuels in the Ground. He described how while our leaders, the “pollutocracy” he called them, were prevaricating in Balie, he and some others had occupied a new open-cast mine in Merthyr Tydfil and shut it down for the day. He highlighted the way that the government was pursuing two contradictory strategies – one the one hand dissuading us from using fossil fuels, and on the other, encouraging the extraction of fossil fuels from the ground. All climate change policies currently concentrate on managing demand; there are no supply-side policies, so therefore he said, no current policies can work. If fossil fuels are extracted then they will be used. He said that between now and 2027, at current rates of growth, we will use as much resources as humanity has ever used. He went on to explain the problem with capitalism. At the heart of capitalism is the process of lending money at interest. You lend one hundred pounds, and you expect to get one hundred and five pounds back. But if you get back one hundred and five pounds then you have done one of two things; either you have increased the money supply by five percent, or you have increased the speed at which people spend by five percent. Unless that five percent increase is matched by a corresponding five percent increase in the supply of goods or services, then that five percent becomes five percent inflation. The Bank of England exists to ensure that the supply of goods and services matches the supply of money, and therefore capitalism is inherently dedicated to a growth economy. There is no such thing as green capitalism, he said. One does not need to take a political position, such as to declare oneself to be a socialist, one just needs to understand that mathematically it cannot work. Our challenge, he said, is not just to change our light bulbs or ride our bikes, or even to de-carbonise our energy supply by 100%. Our challenge is to change our entire economic system, requiring a profound ethical and philosophical shift, which can only take place within our own hearts.

Video and audio clips of the speeches in full, along with some songs performed by Seize the Day, can be found on the Swindon Climate Action Network web site.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2008, 02:55:36 AM »
Wankers.

All of them. Completely deluded and self serving.

It's about time we had a "Normal People Against Global Warming Alarmist Loonies" rally.

I would be up for it.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2008, 10:58:55 PM »
Wankers.

All of them. Completely deluded and self serving.

That's a bit of a sweeping generalisation. Have you actually met any of them?

In what way are they self-serving? What does Michael Meacher gain from criticising the government formed by his own party? What does Caroline Lucas gain from sticking to her principles rather than selling out and defecting to one of the big parties? What does George Monbiot gain by challenging the received wisdom about economic growth?

It's about time we had a "Normal People Against Global Warming Alarmist Loonies" rally.

I would be up for it.

I look forward to seeing the video...
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #3 on: February 27, 2008, 08:47:38 AM »
Good grief, Alan, you really do appear to be a charmless grumpy old man sometimes  ;) When I read your opinions, I find that I actually agree with quite a lot of what you say - but the way in which you say it oversteps mere stridency and puts you into the Alf Garnet school of etiquette... It denegrates your opinion and is in danger of looking like just another form of extremism - as bad as the blind orthadoxical acceptance of the very thing you're railing against. Frankly it makes me want to flame you, even though I share some of your views. Thats a special skill you have!

 Chill out,  have a few less cups of coffee and present an argument for 'the normal people'! (If 'normal people' were characterised by your current style, I'd feel as though the nation's be swept by a Rage style virus...)
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire
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rob-magic

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #4 on: March 23, 2008, 04:58:16 PM »
http://www.prisonplanet.com/articles/march2008/031408_warming_fraud.htm

Weather Channel Founder Wants To Sue Al Gore For Global Warming Fraud

Coleman says man-made climate change advocates would lose landmark court case

Paul Joseph Watson
Prison Planet
Friday, March 14, 2008

A landmark court case that would destroy the so-called "consensus" behind man-made global warming could be in the works after Weather Channel founder John Coleman expressed his intention to sue Al Gore for fraud.

Companies that sell "carbon credits" on the basis that they offset carbon emissions could also be in the firing line as Coleman stated his conviction that man-made advocates would lose the case if a fair debate, something that the establishment is loathe to allow, was allowed to take place.

"Since we can't get a debate, I thought perhaps if we had a legal challenge and went into a court of law, where it was our scientists and their scientists, and all the legal proceedings with the discovery and all their documents from both sides and scientific testimony from both sides, we could finally get a good solid debate on the issue," Coleman said. "I'm confident that the advocates of 'no significant effect from carbon dioxide' would win the case."

Coleman said that any degree of warming that has taken place over the last 25 years is beginning to be offset by a recent cooling trend. China, the largest emitter of carbon dioxide, has just experienced its coldest winter for 100 years.

"I think if we continue the cooling trend a couple of more years, the general public will at last begin to realize that they've been scammed on this global-warming thing," said Coleman.

Coleman questioned whether carbon dioxide caused temperature increase, a point borne out by ice core samples that show increases in carbon dioxide in the environment are a result and not a cause of higher temperatures, lagging behind by as much as 800 years.

"Does carbon dioxide cause a warming of the atmosphere? The proponents of global warming pin their whole piece on that," he said.

"The compound carbon dioxide makes up only 38 out of every 100,000 particles in the atmosphere."

"That's about twice as what there were in the atmosphere in the time we started burning fossil fuels, so it's gone up, but it's still a tiny compound," Coleman said. "So how can that tiny trace compound have such a significant effect on temperature?

"My position is it can't," he continued. "It doesn't, and the whole case for global warming is based on a fallacy."

Coleman's call for a court case to take on the global warming orthodox comes in the same week that the Carnegie Institute urged the need to reduce carbon emissions to zero within decades, a move that would devastate the third world and likely end human civilization as we know it, returning man back to the stone age.



Regards

Offline Simon

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #5 on: March 25, 2008, 06:45:28 PM »
Ah yes, that well-known source of reliable information, Prison Planet  ;D

So this guy is going to attempt to prove in court that CO2 isn't a greenhouse gas? That I'd like to see. In the mean time...

Quote from: prison planet
Coleman questioned whether carbon dioxide caused temperature increase, a point borne out by ice core samples that show increases in carbon dioxide in the environment are a result and not a cause of higher temperatures, lagging behind by as much as 800 years.


Over-simplification of the cause and effect relationship between CO2 and temperature. Increase the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere and the global temperature will rise. If the global temperature rises, this heats the oceans up and so they have less capacity to hold dissolved CO2, so more of it bubbles into the atmosphere. But this doesn't happen straight away, the oceans take a long time to heat up, hence the time-lag between the rise in temperature and the rise in CO2 levels.

See http://www.swindonclimate.org.uk/200703ggws#co2 and http://www.realclimate.org/index.php/archives/2004/12/co2-in-ice-cores/ for more on this subject.

Quote from: prison planet
"The compound carbon dioxide makes up only 38 out of every 100,000 particles in the atmosphere."

"That's about twice as what there were in the atmosphere in the time we started burning fossil fuels, so it's gone up, but it's still a tiny compound," Coleman said. "So how can that tiny trace compound have such a significant effect on temperature?


Already addressed on another thread. Rather than repeating myself, I'll just quote myself.

Somebody tell me the percentage of carbon dioxide in the atmosphere? Oh yes, it's 0.383 ppm. That is 0.383 parts per million. A "major contributor" to greenhouse gases then. Somebody tell me how much water vapour there is in the atmosphere. Also a greenhouse gas. Should we ban the oceans, seas, lakes and rivers?


<edit>

Actually that was 383 ppm. Not 0.383 ppm.

Danged those copied full stops.

Still minuscule and smaller than my mortgage.


The World Health Organisation's maximum limit for arsenic in drinking water is 10 parts per billion. If 383ppm is smaller than your mortgage then 10ppb is probably about equivalent to a round of drinks.

Following your argument, if an area had an unusually high mortality rate and turned out to have 300ppm of arsenic in its drinking water supply, you could easily dismiss arsenic as the cause of death on the grounds that it's such a small amount.

It's not just the atmospheric concentration of CO2 at one moment that's important. It needs to be taken in context with the concentration over geological timescales. Over the last 400,000 years it has oscillated between 200 and 300ppm, but since the industrial revolution has risen rapidly to a value well outside that range. That should be another sign that something's wrong.

You can't put all the blame on water vapour either. Although it's responsible for quite a large chunk of the greenhouse effect due to being the most abundant greenhouse gas in the atmosphere, you need to bear in mind that the greenhouse effect is one of the things which makes this planet habitable. Without it, the world will be 30 degrees colder than it is now. CO2 is responsible for between 9% and 26% of the greenhouse effect, so increasing the concentration to a level 30% greater than the geological maximum and nearly twice the geological minimum is going to have quite a substantial effect.

And when you consider that a rise of average global temperature to six degrees above its current level will result in mass extinction events, it's not so easy to dismiss the effect of all that CO2 we're pouring into the atmosphere at an ever-increasing rate.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2008, 11:31:01 PM »
Good grief, Alan, you really do appear to be a charmless grumpy old man sometimes  ;) When I read your opinions, I find that I actually agree with quite a lot of what you say - but the way in which you say it oversteps mere stridency and puts you into the Alf Garnet school of etiquette... It denegrates your opinion and is in danger of looking like just another form of extremism - as bad as the blind orthadoxical acceptance of the very thing you're railing against. Frankly it makes me want to flame you, even though I share some of your views. Thats a special skill you have!

 Chill out,  have a few less cups of coffee and present an argument for 'the normal people'! (If 'normal people' were characterised by your current style, I'd feel as though the nation's be swept by a Rage style virus...)


Tbh Tobes, I really have lost it when it comes to 'Climate Change' or 'Global Warming' or whatever current vogue term our lefty friends want to call it today.

I just can't believe how much the general public have been mislead and misguided by all of this fake science and propaganda.

What riles me more than anything (and yes, induces raging outbursts like the one above) is how the media is completely biased and on-board all of this rubbish. The man in the street doesn't stand a chance of forming his own opinion because it is a completely one sided show.

How about the Beeb being bullied into changing their reporting by a climate change nutter?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/08/bbc_blog_bully/

Oh, and before you get on your high horse Simon, I'm sure The Register isn't funded by American oil companies.

Face facts. No global increase in temperature for ten years. No link between man made carbon dioxide and climate.

It's all a disgusting charade by people with nothing better to do with their time. Apart from depriving developing countries from doing exactly that. Developing. How dare they pronounce on other people's lives.

Now I AM angry. They can all **** off.
'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimbal in the wabe

Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2008, 11:36:17 PM »
Incidentally I gave up tea and coffee three years ago  ;)
'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimbal in the wabe

Offline Simon

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #8 on: April 10, 2008, 09:25:49 PM »
How about the Beeb being bullied into changing their reporting by a climate change nutter?

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/04/08/bbc_blog_bully/

Oh, and before you get on your high horse Simon, I'm sure The Register isn't funded by American oil companies.


I wouldn't dream of suggesting that it is.

*mounts metaphorical high horse*

What the Register was reporting was that the Beeb published a story entitled "Global temperatures 'to decrease'" containing this:

Quote from: BBC
Global temperatures this year will be lower than in 2007 due to the cooling effect of the La Nina current in the Pacific, UN meteorologists have said.

The World Meteorological Organization's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, told the BBC it was likely that La Nina would continue into the summer.

This would mean global temperatures have not risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory.

But experts have also forecast a record high temperature within five years.


and later re-titled it "Global warming 'dips this year'" and changed the quote to

Quote from: BBC
Global temperatures will drop slightly this year as a result of the cooling effect of the La Nina current in the Pacific, UN meteorologists have said.

The World Meteorological Organization's secretary-general, Michel Jarraud, told the BBC it was likely that La Nina would continue into the summer.

This would mean global temperatures have not risen since 1998, prompting some to question climate change theory.

But experts say we are still clearly in a long-term warming trend - and they forecast a new record high temperature within five years.


The main focus of the Register article is the communications between the Beeb's reporter and a member of the public who wasn't happy with the content of the article, although they also say

Quote from: Register
The BBC provided us with this statement:

"A minor change was made to the 'Global temperatures "to decrease"' piece on our website to better reflect the science. A few people including the report's authors, the World Meteorlogical Organisation, pointed out to us that the earlier version had been ambiguous."


So the Beeb publishes an article saying something has happened that might cause some people to question climate change theory, one misguided person complains about it (in a way that I wouldn't really approve of), the authors of the report that the article was based on point out some ambiguities in the article, and the Beeb subtly alters the wording and title of the article, but in a way that still says something has happened that might cause some people to question climate change theory.

Big deal.

It doesn't change the fact that the majority of climate scientists are telling us that the climate is changing, that it is changing above and beyond the natural behaviour of such a system, and the fact that homo sapiens have spent the last couple of centuries burning fossil fuels and pouring greenhouse gases into the atmosphere at an ever increasing rate.

Quote from: Alan Hayward
Face facts. No global increase in temperature for ten years. No link between man made carbon dioxide and climate.


Erm, no, what it's saying is that we're still in the La Nina part of the El Nino Southern Oscillation. The world is a bit warmer during the El Nino part of the cycle than during the La Nina part. Apparently the La Nina part is still going after ten years this time round. This is one of the many complex processes that affects our climate, not the only one by any means.

There is absolutely nothing in that article that casts doubt on the link between homo sapiens' greenhouse gas emissions and the climate.

Quote from: Alan Hayward
I just can't believe how much the general public have been mislead and misguided by all of this fake science and propaganda.


Well give us some real science then.

I'm a scientist by education and a software developer by profession. I'm used to dealing with things so mind-bogglingly complex that no one person can understand them in their entirety, not me nor anyone else. I know that sometimes my understanding is incomplete or sometimes just plain wrong, and I can reach incorrect conclusions as a result. This happens on a regular basis at work, but then people who are better informed than me in the areas I don't fully understand challenge my conclusions, they point out where I'm wrong, and between us we work out the misunderstanding that led me to the wrong conclusion (or sometimes between us we work out that it's they who are misunderstanding). And we both end up understanding everything a bit better.

Now that's real science.

Something which, despite your assertions about being a scientist, you have failed to provide so far.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #9 on: April 22, 2008, 01:30:53 AM »
Well give us some real science then.

I'm a scientist by education and a software developer by profession. I'm used to dealing with things so mind-bogglingly complex that no one person can understand them in their entirety, not me nor anyone else. I know that sometimes my understanding is incomplete or sometimes just plain wrong, and I can reach incorrect conclusions as a result. This happens on a regular basis at work, but then people who are better informed than me in the areas I don't fully understand challenge my conclusions, they point out where I'm wrong, and between us we work out the misunderstanding that led me to the wrong conclusion (or sometimes between us we work out that it's they who are misunderstanding). And we both end up understanding everything a bit better.

Now that's real science.

Something which, despite your assertions about being a scientist, you have failed to provide so far.

Hey Simon. I'm pleased that you do Real Science.

Very heartening and I congratulate you. I am truly humbled.

So tell me about the following Not Real Science if you would. I will be delighted to be enlightened.

1)






Ah balls. I really can't be bothered to type in 500+ properly peer reviewed scientific articles that completely refute man made global warming. Instead I will go for a different tack.

You are a Greenie. What that boils down to is that you hate people. Admit it. You hate capitalism. You hate the thought that some people might actually enjoy a reasonable - nay - satisfying materialism. It's all those "wealthy people's fault" for actually being successful. So that also goes along with the "we hate the USA and everything they stand for" mentality. I'm not a great lover of our our friends over the pond I have to say but that doesn't mean I want the world to regress to living in caves and eating gruel. The Global Warming movement is a hoax and a scam. It is aimed at making us feel guilty for being comfortable.

Greenie-ism doesn't offer any solutions to world problems whatsoever. All it does is say NO. Given the option of increasing the health and welfare of the third world through advances in medicine, agriculture (including GM), or any other technological advance or breakthrough, the mentality just says "NO!". Don't develop your energy sources. Don't spray DDT to get rid of malaria. Don't do anything that might actually improve your quality of life. Oh no. You should stay living in mud huts and living a "proper lifestyle" instead of having clean water, electricity, personal transport and a growing economy. Well why don't you swap your West Swindon home for that of somebody in desperate Africa and see how you like it? Breath in that air from burning dung and disappearing-forest wood fire instead of smoking roll-ups and see how you like that, sonny.

Look at the wind farm bollocks. What is that all about? It is completely inefficient at developing electricity and can only exist in its present form through Greenie-levered public subsidies. The only useful form of wind power is to pump water. It is ridiculously expensive and nobody in their right minds would start a real business based on it. So what do we want the third world to do? Oh yes, use it. When we in the First World wouldn't touch it with a bargepole given the proper option of burning nuclear or fossil fuels. Complete bollocks.

So come clean my friend. This agenda isn't to do with "saving the planet". It is all to do with hating people. Nice one.
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Offline Mart

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #10 on: April 22, 2008, 07:14:51 PM »
You forgot biodiesel.

That was a stonking success.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #11 on: April 24, 2008, 07:30:49 PM »
Ah balls. I really can't be bothered to type in 500+ properly peer reviewed scientific articles that completely refute man made global warming.

And how many that reach the opposite conclusion? Or are the IPCC just another part of this people-hating global conspiracy?

You hate capitalism.

True.

Other than that one statement, you appear to be on completely the wrong track. I don't know where this idea of hating people comes from. If I really did hate people then I'd just gleefully sit back and watch them wipe themselves and each other out.

You appear to have taken some kind of extreme stereotype and attempted to superimpose it onto me, and it doesn't fit.


You forgot biodiesel.

That was a stonking success.

Biofuels are another horribly complicated area - some are a good idea, some are a really bad idea. And the way the government has introduced them into petrol at the pump without imposing any controls on the way they are sourced (e.g. making sure rainforests aren't being cut down to make way for palm oil plantations), is just barking mad.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #12 on: June 01, 2008, 02:46:36 AM »
Oh dear.

Decreasing global temperatures for ten years now. Yep. Even the Hadley Centre say so.

Oh. Also a 5.5% rise in CO2 in that time. Oh dear oh dear.

The game is up.

Global warming/climate change/Greenie hysteria is complete bollocks.

Funnily enough the next sunspot cycle is taking a long time to kick in. And so we had the fastest fall in global temperatures last year since records began. Funny that. I seem to remember posting a long time ago on here that the Earth's climate might just possibly - nay, probably be related to solar activity.

But what do I know? It's more likely to do with sulphates or aerosols or magic by the Grand Wizard Nim.

Yeah right.

When the pound in your pocket can't buy enough petrol or heat your home adequately, then the public will disregard the greenie bullshit.

Hey - we're at one of those "tipping points" and I am profoundly happy about it. Bring on nuclear power, GM crops, the exploitation of Alaska for oil and gas, high technology, the wisdom of the Czech President and capitalism.

Go for it mankind. You know that innovation, technology and solving problems has always been more successful than dogma, religion and cults  :)
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Offline Simon

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #13 on: June 01, 2008, 08:43:50 AM »
Oh dear.

Decreasing global temperatures for ten years now. Yep. Even the Hadley Centre say so.


http://www.metoffice.gov.uk/research/hadleycentre/obsdata/HadCRUGNS.html



Doesn't look like 10 years of decreasing global temperatures to me.
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Offline Mart

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #14 on: June 01, 2008, 10:06:20 PM »
There's some nutty Yank, who doesn't use a computer, and is about a gazillion years old who was weebling away in a dusty room somewhere. He has asked himself the question that I was going to sarcastically ask right here.

Why don't we hoover up the CO2? The technology exists (you've seen Apollo 13, they knock one up in a jiffy in space!) albeit on a somewhat more modest scale than planetary, but he has one of those moneyed philanthropist types on his side and I think there is a beautiful simplicity to the approach, I might have gone one step further and tried to flog the stuff to fizzy drink manufacturers or to car companies as the next miracle fuel, thus filling the gap left by good old biodiesel.

Anyway oop, darling and brown have f*cked over the greens in this country for a few more years, they are not singlehandedly responsible for the pickle we are in by any means, but they are profiteering to prop up shite policies of their own and the eu (£35 million to poland in child benefit), £4 - 5 billion could be coming their way apparently from our oil crisis, there will be another little pick up from gas and electric that might cover their wasted £2.7 billion tax bribe (it was about Crewe, not you), their response? A green tax that will see a Micra driver proportionally worse off than a Cayenne driver, green my arse.

I've said before I don't mind being taxed at this level if my elected employees give us our money's worth. They don't.

I distrust zealots of any hue, but I have to say the government is the greens worst enemy now they have hitched 'green stuff' up to the revenue gathering bandwagon.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #15 on: June 01, 2008, 10:27:55 PM »
Doesn't look like 10 years of decreasing global temperatures to me.

Typical warmist cherry picking. Look at the x-axis. Oh, it's the longest range of years you can find, from 1850...

Still, funny how the global temperature 'increase' hasn't shot up in the last ten years, is it? What with all the million of tonnes of CO2 that the Chinese and the Indians have been pumping into the atmosphere.

Looks like it has stopped to me. Along with the occurrence of sunspots and solar flares.

Game over.
'Twas brillig and the slithy toves did gyre and gimbal in the wabe

Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #16 on: June 08, 2008, 11:16:51 PM »
Good to see the Climate Tax Bill getting thrown out of the US Congress.

Oh yes. Democracy in action.

The beginning of the end for bulls**t CO2 legislation. Let's hope Europe comes to its senses next and repeals a load of legislative hokum, repeals the cap 'n trade fairy tale, removes all of the joke subsidies on wind generation and gets serious about going highly nuclear.

That has made my year, that has  O0
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #17 on: October 04, 2008, 01:22:30 AM »
Good to see the Climate Tax Bill getting thrown out of the US Congress.

Oh yes. Democracy in action.

The beginning of the end for bulls**t CO2 legislation. Let's hope Europe comes to its senses next and repeals a load of legislative hokum, repeals the cap 'n trade fairy tale, removes all of the joke subsidies on wind generation and gets serious about going highly nuclear.

That has made my year, that has  O0


Good to see I was right.

Germany is going in the right direction, so is the UK, even under Uber Fuhrer Brown.

Wind is dead - hooray. Kill the subsidies and let's get the Froggies on board to build our EDF nuclear pebble bed reactors.

Long live the economic "crisis". It makes the man in the street concentrate on real world problems like the cost of food and energy and less on vaporous rubbish like 'global warming' and the 'green agenda'.

Simon - if I see you in Sainsbury's again, I am going to punch your lights out you hypocrite. Wanker.  O0
 
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #18 on: October 04, 2008, 12:05:29 PM »
Alan - you tedious little man.  :o

You shout off your poisoned gob, with your pointlessly vitriolic words stinking out the forum like a virtual halitosis. Do you EVER think first?

Adding insults and actual physical threats to others simply spotlights the man behind the keyboard and reveals him or what he is. Are you as bitter a little failure of a man as you sound Alan? Are you afflicted with some sort of beer fuelled Tourettes? - Or is it simply that you don't have the intellectual or linguistic capacity to persuade or debate without descending to the level of a thug? Do the decent thing and edit your post now.

The supreme irony of you is that twice now you've thrown a petulant sulk and left the pages of TS after having been warned about your behaviour.... And yet here you are back once again, demonstrating to anyone who can be bothered to read your words, quite why you were such an abject failure when you attempted to enter the world of politics... Now it seems you have no platform for your unpleasantness, except the very place you pledged never to return. (... and to accuse others of hypocrasy is just priceless!)

Do what you promised to do Alan, go away and stay away. I know it might be lonely in your world, but we're not here to allow you to work out your inadaquacies or to wipe up your bile.
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Offline Dougal

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Re: Climate change rally, 8th December 2007
« Reply #19 on: October 04, 2008, 01:55:29 PM »
 
I've taken the very unusual step of 'muting' talkswindon member 'Alan Hayward' pending the admin teams consideration of his apparent threat, (quoted below), to fellow TS member 'Simon'.
 

Simon - if I see you in Sainsbury's again, I am going to punch your lights out you hypocrite. Wanker.  O0

 


TS is all about challenging and debating other members opinions. Discussions and debates on Talkswindon often become 'robust' very occasionally quite heated, but I think this is the first instance of one member threatening violence against another.

It's obviously not on and quite unpleasant for Simon and other members to see this.

The admin team are currently discussing this, but would welcome the opinion of other members. 

Talkswindon is a self-moderating forum so members opinions are obviously integral to the forum reaching a concensus of opinion regarding 'what to do about Alan'.

If members do not wish to comment openly, feel free to email opinion to admin@talkswindon.org 

The admin team also recognise that the forum has many, many more readers than it has members so 'Guest readers', (non TS members),  are also invited to comment via email.



   
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