Author Topic: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...  (Read 16810 times)

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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #60 on: August 05, 2007, 01:42:00 AM »
Some more fossil fuel for the fire:

Quote
Chemist says Global warming is nature's doing

In the 1970s, some climatologists warned the world about global cooling. Now it's global warming. Then it was particulates in the air blocking the sun; now it's carbon dioxide forming a greenhouse effect. Carbon dioxide (CO2) is now presented as the most dangerous greenhouse gas in the Earth's atmosphere, the primary cause of global warming. Some even call it a pollutant. With my education in physics and chemistry, I'd like to shed some light on this issue.

CO2 makes a very small contribution to the Earth's temperature. It is only 0.039 percent of the atmosphere. Nitrogen, oxygen, water vapor and argon comprise more than 99 percent of the atmosphere. Furthermore, carbon dioxide is not a particularly effective greenhouse gas. Out of the wide spectrum of radiation received from the sun, CO2 only absorbs energy from three very narrow levels.

Many people believe there is a difference between man-made CO2 and natural CO2. There is no difference. Carbon dioxide is comprised of one carbon atom and two oxygen atoms. CO2 is a natural, vital part of biological life. Ants, termites and decaying foliage account for the formation of most of the CO2. There are more than a quadrillion ants and termites. These also make a major contribution to other greenhouse gases, methane and ammonia.

CO2 is removed from the atmosphere by plant life. (The vast amount of CO2 is removed by algae in the oceans, not by land plants.) Chemists call it equilibrium. When large amounts of CO2 are created by volcanoes or forest fires, the metabolism of plant life increases and in a short time removes the CO2 from the air.

If there is less CO2 in the atmosphere, the metabolism of plant life slows down. Thus, the levels of CO2 in the atmosphere stay very close to a yearly average of 0.039 percent. Because of the dynamic nature of our atmosphere, CO2 levels are always rising or falling. Low levels follow high levels. Ice core sampling demonstrates that this equilibrium has been in place for millennia.

The gas most responsible for the Earth's temperature is water vapor, by far the most important greenhouse gas. Not only does water vapor account for 3 percent to 4 percent of the atmosphere, it also accepts energy from the sun in virtually all energy levels. Water vapor is thousands of times more responsible for temperature than CO2. Ask any climatologist; he will tell you that this is in fact the case.

The oceans control the level of water vapor in the atmosphere. Water vapor is also responsible for cooling the planet, forming the cloud layer and reflecting the sun's energy. Again, an equilibrium. True, the atmosphere may warm for a while, but this causes more water to leave the oceans and fill the atmosphere. Over time, this causes a denser cloud cover, cooling the Earth.

A common practice among climatologists is to treat the Earth as a closed system. But certain gasses do in fact leave our atmosphere. All gases of a molecular weight 18 or above tend to be held by the Earth's gravitational field. Water is molecular weight (mw)18 and CO2 is mw44. They stay on the Earth. Methane and ammonia, the predominant gases of animal life on the planet, leave the gravitational field and go off into space and out of our atmosphere because their molecular weights are 16 and 17, respectively. Presenting these as greenhouse gases does not give a complete picture of their presence in our atmosphere.

So the oceans control both the warming and the cooling of the earth. Man's contribution of these gases is almost not measurable compared to what nature produces. Humans, with all our cars and factories, account for less than 1 percent of the CO2 present at any one time. Furthermore, man does not control the water cycle. We simply are not that important. We can work to keep the Earth clean, but we cannot control the atmosphere. Many climatologists are aware of this but do not give this critical information to the public.

Global-warming activists believe mankind is altering the Earth's temperature. Although many know that man's contribution is negligible, it is not to their political advantage to reveal this fact. Climate scientists receive funding from the government to research causes of and solutions to man-made global warming. If the current warming were demonstrated to be the natural cycle, this funding would be cut.

The 1970s climatologists had incomplete data, believing we were plunging into an ice age. Predictions made now are equally apocalyptic. They again are based on climate models with incomplete data or, in some cases, deliberately withheld data.

We are now making costly political decisions based on the "fact" that human activity is causing the temperature to rise. Many politicians believe that human-caused global warming is real and that since this view is held by a "consensus of scientists," further study is unnecessary. Climatologists need to come forward without fear and give the public the truth. Carbon dioxide's contribution to global warming is minimal; water vapor is the great buffer for the Earth's temperature; the oceans control this process. Human beings have no measurable control over global temperatures.


http://www.pasadenastarnews.com//ci_6489861
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rob-magic

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #61 on: August 06, 2007, 10:06:38 AM »
George Carlin adding a little humour;

Small | Large


Some strong language.

Offline Simon

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #62 on: August 18, 2007, 04:46:14 PM »
I see there was a lot of activity on this thread while I was away, unfortunately I missed it in the sudden deluge of Fido  :-[

Here is my favourite graph at the moment.

Sunspot activity (measured by taking ice core samples in Antarctica and measuring various isotopes present) gives an accurate reading of solar activity.

More sunspots = more activity = higher solar output = higher temperatures on our insignificant (in the grand scheme of things) planet.

Well now. Ah, that will be us causing this increase then.




I don't see what that graph proves, other than that sunspot activity varies a lot over time.

No-one is saying that sunspot activity doesn't affect our climate, but that doesn't mean it's the only thing that affects the climate. May I remind you of this, from earlier in the thread?

This link is the one you're looking for: http://stephenschneider.stanford.edu/Publications/PDF_Papers/DamonLaut2004.pdf, a 2-page article entitled "Pattern of Strange Errors Plagues Solar Activity and Terrestrial Climate Data"

This graph is taken from that article, but it's very similar to one of the ones used in the film to show a correlation between sunspot activity and temperature.



That and other graphs over longer periods seem to show that there is a link between sunspot activity and temperature, and I won't argue with that. There are many factors which affect our climate, and it would be foolish to suggest that the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere is the only thing which drives it.

The important point about that graph is that the last few points on the solar activity (blue) line aren't accurate. The article says

Quote
However,close analysis of the central graphs in all of these articles reveals questionable handling of the underlying physical data. In the 1991 article, the impressive agreement of the solar curve with terrestrial temperatures during the global warming of the recent decennia had been a major factor in the article’s strong impact. But this agreement was actually an artifact: it had simply been obtained by adding, to a heavily smoothed (“filtered”) curve, four additional points covering the period of global warming, which were only partially filtered or not filtered at all.

Figure 1a shows northern hemisphere land temperatures (red asterisks) and filtered and nonfiltered solar cycle lengths (blue plus signs). The added four points are marked 1–4. The rationale for adding them without proper filtering was that the proper filtering of these points could not be performed because the observational data necessary for the filtering were not yet available in 1991. So instead of restricting the curve to the proper data that were available at the time, a curve was presented that consisted of different types of data where the agreement with global warming was due to the non-filtered data alone. Today, in the year 2004, more data have become available, and the four points can be plotted more correctly (see Figure 1c, which shows properly filtered solar cycle lengths). Now the sensational agreement with the recent global warming, which drew worldwide attention, has totally disappeared. Nevertheless,the authors and other researchers keep presenting the old misleading graph.


Here's figure 1c from that article:



So, although it looks like a safe bet that sunspot activity is a contributing factor towards the temperature on our planet, there has been a temperature rise in recent decades that cannot be explained by sunspot activity, so we must look for some other factor to account for it.


I remember in the 70's we were "headed for the next ice age" because we had a few years of cooling.


That was due to sulphate aerosols from dirty fossil fuel burning reflecting heat back out to space. Higher standards are in place now for atmospheric pollution, so sulphate aerosol emissions have gone down but the greenhouse gas emissions are still going up because we're still burning the fossil fuels at an ever increasing rate.


Ah yes, of course. I knew there would be a good reason.

I suppose that the Chinese and Russian power stations are very tightly controlled on sulphur emissions, eh?

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China is the world's biggest emitter of sulphur dioxide. Coal- and oil-fired power stations were responsible for 11 million of the 25 million tonnes discharged last year, which caused acid rain that affected a third of the country. Clean Air Initiative 2006


You can't have it both ways, see?

This is how it works. Pick the "facts" and the psedo-science results that fit the argument.


I've been looking for information about trends in those emissions over recent decades, but this seems to be the nearest I could find:



From http://www.pnl.gov/aisu/pubs/street21.pdf

Yes, China is a big emitter of both greenhouse gasses and SO2, but even there, the SO2 emissions are declining.

Now, onto that Fox News article.

Quote from: Steven Milloy on Fox News
A new study in the Aug. 2 issue of the British science journal Nature found that the solid particles suspended in the atmosphere (called “aerosols”) that make up “brown clouds” may actually contribute to warmer temperatures — precisely the opposite effect heretofore claimed by global warming alarmists.


Bearing in mind that Fox News is part of the Rupert Murdoch propaganda empire, and is notorious for its right-wing bias and spin, I don't trust it to accurately report anything. I went in search of the original article in Nature, but unfortunately it's only available to subscribers (something which has been a real  :bash: all the way through this thread, as most of the original documents aren't available online). However, I found the editor's summary of it.

Quote from: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v448/n7153/edsumm/e070802-01.html
By 2001, it was realized that the thick brown haze discovered over the Arabian Sea during the Indian Ocean Experiment (INDOEX: 1997-1999) was a persistent dry-season feature above Southern Asia. A UNEP report in 2002 raised concerns of major climate disruption if the sources of the haze, including biomass burning, were not controlled. NASA's TERRA satellite has since detected similar atmospheric brown clouds (ABCs) elsewhere. Atmospheric solar heating and surface dimming due to ABCs both drive climate change, and to quantify that change we need direct measurements like the two datasets presented this week. First, three stacked, autonomous, unmanned aircraft measured solar heating above the Indian Ocean. Second, the CALIPSO satellite tracked a 3-km-thick haze from the Indian Ocean to the Himalayas. Climate modelling with the data suggests that ABC-induced atmospheric warming resembles that induced by greenhouse gases, a possible explanation for Himalayan glacier retreat.


And this is what the BBC (not perfect by any means, but still a lot more trustworthy than Fox News) made of the article:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/science/nature/6926597.stm

Quote from: BBC
Clouds of pollution over the Indian Ocean appear to cause as much warming as greenhouse gases released by human activity, a study has suggested.

US researchers used unmanned aircraft to measure the effects of the "brown clouds" on the surrounding area.

Writing in Nature, they said the tiny particles increased the solar heating of the lower atmosphere by about 50%.

The warming could be enough to explain the retreat of glaciers in the Himalayas, the scientists proposed.

The clouds contain a mixture of light absorbing aerosols and light scattering aerosols, which cause the atmosphere to warm and the surface of the Earth to cool.

The main sources of the pollutants came from wood burning and fossil fuels, the team added.

The unmanned aircraft flew 18 missions through the "brown cloud"

Aerosols, also known as particulates, cool the land or sea below because they filter out light from the Sun.

While this process, known as "global dimming", is fairly well understood, the effect aerosols have on the surrounding atmosphere is still unclear.

The scientists, from the University of California San Diego and the Nasa Langley Research Center, said there remained a degree of uncertainty because, until now, estimates had largely been derived from computer models.


Hardly the conclusive picture painted by the Fox News article, is it?

Back to the Fox News article, and the subject of sloppy science

Quote from: Fox News
In May, researchers reported in the Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences that the rate of manmade carbon dioxide emissions was three times greater during 2000 to 2004 than during the 1990s. But while humans may be burning more fossil fuels than ever before, that ever-increasing activity isn’t having any sort of discernible or proportionate impact on global temperatures.


... conveniently forgetting about thermal inertia. The effects don't happen overnight - it takes a very long time for the oceans to warm up.

And about the author, Steven Milloy. The biopic at the foot of the article should give some cause for concern.

Quote from: Fox News
Steven Milloy publishes JunkScience.com and DemandDebate.com. He is a junk science expert, an advocate of free enterprise and an adjunct scholar at the Competitive Enterprise Institute.


An advocate of free enterprise eh? That normally translates into plain English as someone who wants to see all the barriers to the stinking rich getting even richer removed. You know, those pesky things like environmental controls and human rights.

He even seems to warrant his own factsheet at ExxonSecrets.org, which is slightly more revealing:

http://www.exxonsecrets.org/html/personfactsheet.php?id=881

Quote from: Exxon Secrets
FACTSHEET: Steven Milloy
DETAILS

Founder and Publisher, junkscience.com
Adjunct Scholar, Cato Institute Columnist, FoxNews.com Director, Advancement of Sound Science Center/Coalition.

One of the primary purposes of his website, junkscience.com, is to "debunk" environmentalism. Milloy has started a host of short-lived "organizations" to provide financial cover for his activities. These indude Citizens for the Integrity of Science, The Advancement of Sound Science Center, NoMoreScares.com, Regulatory Impact Analysis Project, Inc, and the Environmental Policy Analysis Network. Some have been registered as non-profits with the IRS, but have one employee (Milloy) and sometimes one other board member.

Milloy was once Executive Director of the defunct Advancement of Sound Science Coalition and is still the director of the Advancement of Sound Science Center, an apparently related entity. He was also Director of the National Environmental Policy Institute. Milloy's publications include "Junk Science Judo," "Science without Sense" (Cato Institute, 1995), "Science-Based Risk Assessment: A Piece of the Superfund Puzzle" (National Environmental Policy Institute, 1995) and "Silencing Science" (Cato Institute 1999) which he co-wrote with Michael Gough. Though Milloy denies ever having been a lobbyist, Milloy shows up in federal lobbying registration data for 1997 as having expenditures on his behalf, indicating his firm, the EOP Group, believed him to be an active lobbyist. The same federal records indicate Milloy represented the American Petroleum Institute, FMC Corp, Fort Howard, International Food Additives Council, and Monsanto. Interestingly, according to these records, Milloy lobbied for Monsanto on the subject of "food safety and labeling," which is lobbyist speak for "biotech foods." (Center for Responsive Politics, Lobbyist Database) According to the Washington Representatives, Milloy was still registered as a lobbyist with the EOP Group in 1999, with the American Petroleum Institute and FMC Corp listed as clients. (1999 Washington Representatives).

"Milloy earned a B.A. in natural sciences from the Johns Hopkins University, a master of health sciences in biostatistics from the Johns Hopkins University School of Public Health, a juris doctorate from the University of Baltimore, and a master of laws from the Georgetown University Law Center." (Cato website, 4/04)


I wouldn't treat someone who lobbies on behalf of the oil industry as a reliable or impartial source when it comes to climate change.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #63 on: September 01, 2007, 07:10:59 AM »
Well here's a couple of crackers for the crackers out there.

Quote
Survey: Less Than Half of all Published Scientists Endorse Global Warming Theory

Comprehensive survey of published climate research reveals changing viewpoints

In 2004, history professor Naomi Oreskes performed a survey of research papers on climate change. Examining peer-reviewed papers published on the ISI Web of Science database from 1993 to 2003, she found a majority supported the "consensus view," defined as humans were having at least some effect on global climate change. Oreskes' work has been repeatedly cited, but as some of its data is now nearly 15 years old, its conclusions are becoming somewhat dated.

Medical researcher Dr. Klaus-Martin Schulte recently updated this research. Using the same database and search terms as Oreskes, he examined all papers published from 2004 to February 2007. The results have been submitted to the journal Energy and Environment, of which DailyTech has obtained a pre-publication copy.

The figures are surprising. Of 528 total papers on climate change, only 38 (7%) gave an explicit endorsement of the consensus. If one considers "implicit" endorsement (accepting the consensus without explicit statement), the figure rises to 45%. However, while only 32 papers (6%) reject the consensus outright, the largest category (48%) are neutral papers, refusing to either accept or reject the hypothesis. This is no "consensus."

The figures are even more shocking when one remembers the watered-down definition of consensus here. Not only does it not require supporting that man is the "primary" cause of warming, but it doesn't require any belief or support for "catastrophic" global warming. In fact of all papers published in this period (2004 to February 2007), only a single one makes any reference to climate change leading to catastrophic results.

These changing viewpoints represent the advances in climate science over the past decade. While today we are even more certain the earth is warming, we are less certain about the root causes. More importantly, research has shown us that -- whatever the cause may be -- the amount of warming is unlikely to cause any great calamity for mankind or the planet itself.

Schulte's survey contradicts the United Nation IPCC's Fourth Assessment Report (2007), which gave a figure of "90% likely" man was having an impact on world temperatures. But does the IPCC represent a consensus view of world scientists? Despite media claims of "thousands of scientists" involved in the report, the actual text is written by a much smaller number of "lead authors." The introductory "Summary for Policymakers" -- the only portion usually quoted in the media -- is written not by scientists at all, but by politicians, and approved, word-by-word, by political representatives from member nations.

By IPCC policy, the individual report chapters -- the only text actually written by scientists -- are edited to "ensure compliance" with the summary, which is typically published months before the actual report itself. By contrast, the ISI Web of Science database covers 8,700 journals and publications, including every leading scientific journal in the world.


http://www.dailytech.com/Survey+Less+Than+Half+of+all+Published+Scientists+Endorse+Global+Warming+Theory/article8641.htm

Quote
Civilization Watch

By Orson Scott Card    March 4, 2007

All in a Good Cause

Here's a story you haven't heard, and you should have.

An intelligence source, working for a government agency. He's not a spy, he's an analyst. He uses computers to crunch numbers and at the end of his work, out pops the truth that was hiding in the original data. Let's call him "Mann."

The trouble with Mann is, he has an ideology. He knows what he wants his results to be. And the original numbers aren't giving him that data. So the agency he works for won't be able to persuade people to fight the war he wants to fight.

Well, that's not acceptable.

Cooking the Figures

He starts with his software. There are certain procedures that are normal and accepted in his line of work. But if he makes just one little mistake, his program does a weird little recursion and if there's any data at all that shows the pattern he wants it to show, it will be magnified 139 times, so it far overshadows all the other data.

He can run it on random numbers and it gives him the shape he wants. Unfortunately, the real-world numbers aren't random -- they have a very different shape. All the numbers. Even his jimmied program won't give the results he wants.

All he needs is any data shaped the right way. And so he looks a little farther, and ... here it is. It looks, on the surface, like all the other data that he's been working with. Other researchers working in his field, just glancing at it, will assume it is, too.

But it isn't. Because the source that gathered this batch of data had some other key information that takes it all away. The numbers don't mean what they normally mean. In fact, this number set is absolutely false.

If you use these numbers along with all the other data, however, the clever little program will pick them up, magnify them radically, and voilá! The final report shows exactly the shape he needs the numbers to have.

The trouble is, these numbers are supposed to be doublechecked. Anybody who looks closely at his numbers and at his program will see what he's done. It's not hard to find, if you have the original data sets and can examine the program. He will be exposed as a fraud. It will do his cause more harm than good, if it's made public.

But he's not afraid. He knows how this works.

He doesn't show the program or the lists of his data sources to anybody.

Second, he is given a big boost by the fact that another researcher -- we'll call him "Santer" -- had his own axe to grind. He was also the author of a questionable report and got himself appointed to a position that allowed him to get to the final report before it's published, delete all statements about how "there is no way to reach a definitive conclusion," and replace them with his own conclusion, which is absolute.

And it works. Santer's report is accepted, even though it has since been proven false. Mann's report continues to be relied on, and no one questions it. The government agency issues the report which they know has been altered to fit preconceived conclusions.

Vast sums of money are expended on the basis of what he claims to have found. People's live are put at risk.

Mann and Santer didn't do it for the money, though grants do flow in their direction.

They did it for the cause. It's a noble cause. And even though the data don't actually say what they wanted them to say -- in fact, they say the opposite -- they are untroubled by that. Because the government actions that are being taken are the Right Thing.

Santer and Mann are true believers. They don't need evidence. Evidence is just something you create to persuade other people.

Here's the amazing thing about Mann's original report: He's not the only researcher working in this field. In fact, it's the job of many hundreds of researchers to refuse to accept his data at face value. After all, his findings disagree with everyone else's. Before they accept his results, they have a duty to look at his software, look at his data, and try to duplicate his results.

But nobody does it. Not a soul.

Nor, when it goes public, does anyone in the press check the results -- because they want him to be right, too.

Steve the Canadian Businessman

Not until a Canadian businessman -- let's call him "Steve" -- took a look at the stats and got curious. Now, it happens that Steve is in the mining business; he also happened to be a prize-winning math student in college. He knows how to read number sets. He knows what good analysis looks like.

He also knows what cooked figures look like. He has seen the phony projections that companies use when they're trying to swindle people. Their results are too perfect. Mann's report looks too perfect, too.

So Steve starts digging. First, he read's Mann's original report. He finds it an exercise in obscurity. From what he published, it's very, very hard to tell just what statistical methods Mann used, or even what data he operated on.

This is wrong -- it's not supposed to be that way. Scientists are supposed to leave a clear path so other people can follow them up and replicate their research.

The fact that it's so obscure suggests that Mann does not want anyone checking his work.

But Mann used government grants in his research. Which means he has an obligation to disclose. Steve contacts him, asks for the information. He gets a runaround. He gets pointed to a website that does not have the information. He tries again, and again gets a runaround -- in fact, Mann sends him a very rude letter saying that he will no longer communicate with him.

Why should he? Steve isn't a legitimate researcher in that field. He's just a businessman.

But Steve is now sure there's something fishy going on, and he doesn't give up. He gets other people to help him. Finally they are pointed to a different website, where, to their surprise, they find that someone has accidentally left a copy of the FORTRAN program that was used to crunch the numbers. It wasn't supposed to be where Steve found it -- which is why it hadn't been deleted.

Also, there was a little more carelessness -- there is a set of data labeled "censored." Steve can't see, right away, what's significant about it, except that a score or so of data sets are left out of the censored data.

Steve looks at the program. He finds the glitch rather easily. He tries the program on random numbers and realizes that it always yields the distinctive shape that has caused all the stir.

Sorting out the data sets is much harder. He contacts a lot of people. He does what anyone checking these figures would have to do, and he realizes: If anyone had tried to check, a lot of this information would already have been put together.

He realizes: I am the first person ever to attempt to verify these astonishing, anomalous, politically hot results. Out of all the researchers in this field who had a responsibility to do "due diligence" before accepting the data, none of them has done it.

Finally he has all the original data put together. It includes more than just real numbers -- it includes "extrapolated" data, which means that sometimes, where there were holes, Mann just made the numbers up and plugged them in. This is sloppy and lazy -- but it's just the beginning.

What's crucial is that Steve now understands why the "censored" data sets are smaller than the ones Mann used. The full source data includes those misleading results that shouldn't have been used. But the "censored" data sets leave it out.

This means that Mann knew exactly what he was doing. This was not an accident. Mann ran the program on the data without the misleading numbers, and then he ran it with the misleading numbers. What he published was the results that made his ideological case.

Where's the Press?

This story is true.

Anybody who cares to can verify the story. In fact, one of the leading science journals was prepared to publish Steve's results. But then, before publication, they kept cutting back and cutting back on the amount of space they would let Steve's report take up in the journal.

Finally the space they were going to allot was so small that they concluded Steve could not tell his story in that number of words, and therefore they decided not to publish it at all.

Meanwhile, serious publications did publish Mann's savage response to what Steve was saying on the website where he was putting up his results for everyone to read.

Notice: Steve is making all his work transparent to the world -- anyone is free to check his data.

Mann is still hiding, denying, attacking -- but not providing the full information. You still have to do detective work to ferret it out.

Now, if you were a reporter -- you know, those brave guys and gals who are committed, body and soul, to "the public's right to know" -- wouldn't you smell a rat? Wouldn't you jump on the chance to expose such an obvious fraud?

After all, there are now governments all over the world basing their decisions on Mann's false report. Crucial decisions are being made. Schoolchildren are being terrorized with dire projections of what will happen if Mann's report is not believed and acted upon. Vast sums of money are being spent. People are treating Mann's cause as a crusade -- and his fake results are the chief weapon they use to prove their case.

Where's the press? Why am I able to tell you this story in full confidence that very few who are reading it will have ever heard it before?

Because Mann doesn't report to the Bush administration. The government agency for which the result was filed was a UN agency -- specifically, the Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change.

And Mann's report is the famous "hockey stick" that "proves" that global warming not only is happening, but right now we're in the warmest climate period in the past thousand years.

Ah! You've heard of that report, haven't you! The press has been all over that one! Your kids are being taught about it in school!

You have friends who look at you like an idiot or the scum of the earth if you don't get energized by it, frightened by it, determined to act on that information. Don't you care about the future of the environment?

Why haven't you joined the cause? Why doesn't the Bush administration act to save the world from the most terrible threat imaginable?

It's like the opening of the "Talk of the Town" section of the February 12th New Yorker: "Except in certain benighted precincts -- oil-industry-funded Web sites, the Bush White House, Michael Crichton's den -- no one wastes much energy these days trying to deny global warming."

This statement is not just false, it's stupidly false. It speaks of such deep ignorance at The New Yorker -- ignorance that they're actually proud of -- that it makes one despair, for this is a magazine that once prided itself on knowing what it was talking about.

"By the time the IPCC publishes an assessment, it has been vetted by thousands of scientists," says The New Yorker -- but we know that in fact nobody vetted the Mann paper, and nobody checked Santer except, of course, Santer -- while he went ahead and removed statements of some of those "thousands of scientists" (p. 27).

In other words, whoever wrote this New Yorker piece did not check. He or she just spouted.

What is really being said here is, "We believe in the IPCC and anybody else who supports Global Warming. We believe it so much that we refuse to listen to anybody who says otherwise."

The only difference between this and Jim and Tammy Baker on the old PTL Club is that nobody says "Jesus." It's all faith, no science.

They're like four-year-olds putting their fingers in their ears and chanting "La la la la" until the person talking to them goes away.

The Hockey Stick Hoax should be a scandal as big as the discovery of the Piltdown Man Hoax. Bigger, really, since so much more is at stake.

But because the media are dominated by True Believers, they are doing everything they can to maintain the hoax, to keep the public from learning the truth.

What were those bad numbers Mann plugged in to get his fake results? Modern bristlecone pine tree-ring data in which recent tree rings showed the widths that would normally mean unusually warm weather.

However, these trees were located near temperature recording stations that showed lower than usual temperatures. So instead of being a sign of warmer temperatures, the tree rings are actually responding to the increased CO2 levels.

Even the heading on this bristlecone pine study clearly stated that the wider tree rings did not indicate higher temperatures. But Mann plugged them in as if they did, producing the one dataset that showed "warmer weather" (i.e., wider tree rings) in recent years, allowing the defective software to produce its hockey-stick result.

The bristlecone pine study was real science. Mann's use of it was deliberately fraudulent.

How Can We Know What's True?

All this can be checked. I didn't even change the names. "Mann" is Michael Mann; his co-writers on that hockey stick report are Raymond Bradley and Malcolm Hughes. "Steve" is Stephen McIntyre, and the writer of the report I'm working from is Ross McKitrick, who is a climate scientist. Their report is a chapter in Shattered Consensus: The True State of Global Warming, edited by Patrick J. Michaels.

Do you know how True Believer scientists respond to this? Just like the ignorant New Yorker writer. There's no attempt to answer any specific charge. They simply dismiss any disagreement by saying, "All the smart scientists agree that global warming is happening; anybody who denies it is just a crank, and you should ignore them."

This is exactly the kind of bias that President Bush's enemies accuse him of having during the run-up to the Iraq War. They claim that Bush and his people only believed the intelligence reports that told them what they wanted to hear, and ignored the rest, claiming that "everybody knew" things that were false.

That's not what happened with Bush (but you don't actually have to prove accusations against President Bush these days). But with the Hockey Stick Hoax it can be proved -- yet the very same reporters pay no attention at all. It's "not a story."

In other words, the very people who attack Bush as a liar are actually behaving exactly as they accuse Bush of behaving.

Global Warming vs. Climate Change

If you pay close attention, you'll find that Global Warming alarmists are not actually saying "Global Warming" lately. No, nowadays it's "Climate Change." Do you know why?

Because for the past three years, global temperatures have been falling.

Oops.

The thing is, we've had twenty years since the Alarmists first raised the banner of Global Warming. They told us that "If This Goes On" by 2010 or 2020, sea levels will be rising so high that coastal cities will be flooded, famines will cover the earth, and ...

Oh, you know the list. They're still making the same predictions -- they just move the dates farther back.

It's like those millennarian religious cults in the 1800s. Religious leaders would arise who would predict the Second Coming of Christ in 1838. When Christ didn't oblige them by showing up, they went back to their visions or scripture calculations or whatever they claimed and report that they miscalculated, now it was going to be 1843. Or whatever.

Here's the raw truth:

All the computer models are wrong. They have not only failed to predict the future, they can't even predict that past.

That is, when you run their software with the data from, say, the 1970s or 1980s, and project what should happen in the 1990s or 2000s, they project results that have absolutely nothing to do with the known climate data for those decades.

In other words, the models don't work. The only way to make them "work" is to take the known results and then fiddle with the software until it finally produces them. That's not how honest science is done.

Why are so many scientists so wrong?

First of all, there aren't all that many scientists. You hear about how "everybody" agrees about global warming. But who is "everybody"?

I had somebody at a conference get very angry with me for even raising a question. "I have a friend who's a climate scientist and he says that the Everglades are definitely drying up!"

But that's not the question, I said. Global warming isn't even the question. The question is, what is causing global warming or cooling or climate change? Is it human Carbon Dioxide emissions or something else? Your friend is studying aquifers in one specific area. In what way is he qualified to speak about global climate?

The only answer I got was the answer you always get when you challenge the roots of someone's religion -- fury, dismay, and a refusal to talk about it any more.

That's what happens over and over. Who are the scientists who are qualified to speak? There aren't that many. It's the relatively few scientists who are studying paleoclimate and those who are working on contemporary data collection and collation and analysis.

And here's where it almost gets funny. Even the IPCC, which was so heavily biased in favor of Global Warming alarmism, could not get its pet scientists to agree that Global Warming in recent decades is even probably caused by human activity.

What Is Driving Global Climate?

Science isn't done by consensus. It's done by rigorous testing. When a hypothesis -- or a computer model -- fails to correspond to the actual real-world data, you throw it out.

That's what the real climate scientists are doing. They have found, in recent years, a very close correspondence between global climate and variations in the amount of radiation the Earth receives from the Sun.

The light and heat we get varies depending on the distance and position of the Earth and the amount of radiation the Sun puts out. The Earth's distance and position seem to determine the big cycles -- the Ice Ages -- and the Sun's variations seem to determine the smaller climate cycles.

We have historical data indicating several global warm periods. There was one during the heyday of the Roman Empire; then there was a global cooling during the Dark Ages (beginning about 600 a.d.) The Medieval Warming kicked in about 950, followed by the Little Ice Age beginning about 1300.

The Little Ice Age ended in about 1860. You'll notice that most reports on our modern Global Warming set that as their base point, and leave out all prior warmings.

But those warm periods are real, as are the cool periods. Ice core samples from various places around the world back it up, as do ocean floor samples. In fact, the predictions based on the 1500-year (approximately) solar cycle are borne out everywhere.

There's now at least as much real-world evidence supporting the solar cycle as the cause of climate variation -- including all of today's climate variation -- than there was for, say, tectonic plates or the asteroid-caused extinctions at the time when they were first plastered all over the media as the hottest science news of their day.

It's not that it's really a secret. The book Unstoppable Global Warming by Singer and Avery tells us what the media could easily have reported to us:

"On 16 November 2001, the journal Science published a report on elegant research, done by unimpeachable scientists, giving us the Earth's climate history for the past 32,000 years -- along with our climate's linkage to the sun" (p. 8).

They quote Richard Kerr of Science:

"... the climate of the northern North Atlantic has warmed and cooled nine times in the past 12,000 years in step with the waxing and waning of the sun."

And Kerr quotes glaciologist Richard Alley of Penn State:

"The ... data are sufficiently convincing that [solar variability] is now the leading hypothesis to explain the roughly 1,500-year oscillation of the climate seen since the last ice age, including the Little Ice Age of the 17th century" (p.8).

We're not talking about fly-by-night wackos. We're talking about leading scientists doing solid research.

And other scientists have found data that correlates closely with their findings all over the world. In other words, these solar oscillations account, completely, for the global variations.

The opposite is the case with the Global Warming alarmists. Their human-emitted Carbon Dioxide hypothesis is made ludicrous by the fact that most of the warming since the 1860s occurred before 1940, an era when human CO2 emissions were not significant. And we had significant global cooling between then and 1970, precisely the period when CO2 emissions were steeply rising.

CO2 really is rising, though. Any greenhouse heat effect seems to be dissipated by a newly discovered "Pacific Heat Vent." Moreover, CO2 emissions are provably involved in fertilizing vegetation wherever CO2 levels have risen.

Global Warming "Solutions"

We can't stop global warming or cooling. We simply don't have the power to do it. We can't heat up or cool down the sun; we can't jiggle the Earth in its orbit or change its position. We'd be idiots to try, even if such unimaginable powers came within our reach.

So we'll continue, as long as the human race persists, to have ice ages and warm periods, with relatively minor oscillations (like the Little Ice Age and our current warm period) in between.

In fact, what we have right now, while we are not yet as warm as the peak of the Medieval Warming (a fact that Mann and others have tried to deny or obscure), is a superb climate that is making life better for people all over the world. It's the cold periods that cause famines and population drops, and promote plagues and floods.

We should be grateful.

Instead we are being hit with dire warnings, every one of which is either false or a normal part of the Earth's history; our business should be to adapt to the unavoidable solar-caused warming, not to destroy the worldwide economy in order to prevent something that human activity is not causing.

Because the "solutions" proposed by the alarmists do not solve anything -- and they admit it! The drastic proscriptions of the Kyoto Protocols, even if anybody were actually following them, would not have had any effect on Global Warming, even if it had been caused by human CO2 emissions.

Do you understand that? When Al Gore goes on and on about what we must do to save the Earth, he knows -- and everybody involved with the Global Warming alarmist movement knows -- that none of their drastic proposals would have the slightest effect on Global Warming even if it worked they way their fantasies say it does.

So why do they propose it? There are many personal motives, of course, but when you look at the non-solution "solutions" they propose, the pattern is clear: They are not trying to stop global warming. They are trying to punish the Western democracies for being richer than the rest of the world.

There are solutions to that problem (and I believe it is a problem), but they involve stabilizing bad governments, increasing international trade, and making unsafe parts of the world safer so they can take part in the global boom.

Not only that, but many of the programs the alarmists advocate are actually needed for completely unrelated reasons. It is a mark of our folly and blindness that we continue to be so ridiculously oil-dependent all these years after the oil embargo of 1973.

For national security, environmental, futuristic, and personal-happiness reasons we should be working hard to change our automobile centered culture into more civilized patterns that invariably make people happier wherever they are tried.

It can't be done by cutting back on automobile emissions or even by raising taxes on gasoline -- especially because these changes are hardest on the poor and the marginal middle class.

But I'll write about how and why we need to cut back on our destructive love affair with that faithless mistress, the car, in another column.

What matters right here and now is that it is time for the world's scientists to apostatize from the Church of Global Warming. It is a false religion. It is based on lies, and its leading prophets know that it is because they're the ones faking the data or stretching it to ridiculous lengths to pretend that the real world hasn't already ruled against their claims.

It is time for our school systems to stop accepting the gospel of that false religion and start doing their due diligence. Our children should be taught about the demonstrable solar cycles; and the whole human-caused Global Warming theory, along with the Hockey Stick Hoax, should be taught only as another example, after Piltdown Man and pre-Copernican theories of planetary movement, of how science can be corrupted when ideology gets ahead of the data.

It is time for us to laugh at the ideologues who try to pretend that any criticism of Global Warming alarmism is idiotic and unscientific. They are the ones who ignore the data; they are the ones who believe on faith alone, without evidence; and, most important, they are the ones who are trying to stifle the opposition without answering it.

The Global Warming alarmists are the anti-science religion that is trying to forcibly indoctrinate and convert everyone while suppressing dissent. And the news media are their patsies, their stooges, their puppets.

Right now, let's start demanding that whenever the local newspaper or TV stations say anything about Global Warming, they back it up with actual data that takes into account the solar oscillations, the real climate history of the earth, and the facts about what CO2 actually does in the atmosphere.

It's time to stop letting them pass along other people's lies. It's time for the news media to stop doing cocktail party "research" and dig down into the science and get it right.

Read It For Yourselves

I could not possibly array all the evidence here; you must read the books for yourself. Unstoppable Global Warming is a highly accessible book written for ordinary educated readers. It's the book I recommend most highly.

Shattered Consensus, on the other hand, uses the language of various disciplines of science to a degree that makes some chapters fairly difficult for untrained readers, though the key chapter I cited here, on the Hockey Stick Hoax, is quite readable and worth looking at by everybody.

S. Fred Singer and Dennis T. Avery, Unstoppable Global Warming: Every 1,500 Years.

Patrick J. Michaels, ed. Shattered Consensus: The True State of Global Warming.. (See especially: Ross McKitrick, "The Mann et al. Northern Hemisphere 'Hockey Stick' Climate Index: A Tale of Due Diligence," pp. 20-49.)


http://www.ornery.org/essays/warwatch/2007-03-04-1.html

But undoubtedly the shrill voices of the "man made global catastrophe" brigade will say that these articles are just lies and are backed by nasty oil companies and will continue with their ash and sackcloth hysteria. Ho hum.
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rob-magic

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #64 on: September 01, 2007, 09:25:06 PM »
Well done Alan

Offline Simon

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #65 on: July 22, 2008, 10:30:37 PM »
Two new items to add to this thread, seeing as OfCom have published their response to the many complaints about the Great Global Warming Swindle.

1) OfCom's judgement: http://www.ofcom.org.uk/tv/obb/prog_cb/obb114/ (you need to scroll down a bit - the first item in this bulletin is about a completely different programme)
2) George Monbiot writing in the Guardian about OfCom's response, the "documentary" itself, and the history of Martin Durkin and Channel 4 generally on environmental programming: http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2008/jul/21/climatechange.carbonemissions1
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construct

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #66 on: July 23, 2008, 09:49:55 AM »
Here's some more fuel for the CO2 emitting fire from the The Register

Quote
One is how small the field of "experts" really is. The UN's IPCC is tasked with producing a summary of the "scientific consensus" and claims to process the contributions of some 2,500 scientists. But as Monckton writes:

"It is of no little significance that the IPCC’s value for the coefficient in the CO2 forcing equation depends on only one paper in the literature; that its values for the feedbacks that it believes account for two-thirds of humankind’s effect on global temperatures are likewise taken from only one paper; and that its implicit value of the crucial parameter κ depends upon only two papers, one of which had been written by a lead author of the chapter in question, and neither of which provides any theoretical or empirical justification for a value as high as that which the IPCC adopted." [our emphasis]

Another eye-opener is his explanation of how the believers' climate models are verified:

"Since we cannot measure any individual forcing directly in the atmosphere, the models draw upon results of laboratory experiments in passing sunlight through chambers in which atmospheric constituents are artificially varied," writes Monckton. "Such experiments are, however, of limited value when translated into the real atmosphere, where radiative transfers and non-radiative transports (convection and evaporation up, advection along, subsidence and precipitation down), as well as altitudinal and latitudinal asymmetries, greatly complicate the picture."

In other words, an unproven hypothesis is fed into a computer (so far so good), but it can only be verified against experiments that have no resemblance to the chaotic system of the Earth's climate. It is not hard to see how the scientists could produce an immaculate "model" that's theoretically perfect in every respect (all the equations balance, and it may even be programmed to offer perfect "hind-casting"), but which has no practical predictive value at all. It's safe from the rude intrusion of empirical evidence drawn from atmospheric observation.

The great British-born physicist Freeman Dyson offered an impertinent dose of reality which illustrates the dangers of relying on theory for both your hypothesis and the evidence you need to support it. Since 8 per cent of atmospheric CO2 is absorbed by the planet's biomass every year, notes Dyson, the average lifespan of a carbon molecule in the atmosphere is about 12 years. His observation leaves the "climate scientists" models as immaculate as they were before, but suggests a very different course of policy action. It suggests our stewardship of land should be at the forefront of CO2 mitigation strategies. That's not something we hear from politicians, pressure groups and, yes ... climate scientists.



The full article is here :- http://www.theregister.co.uk/2008/07/21/monckton_aps/

I am a natural sceptic when the government is concerned and using climate change as a mallet to beat us down with is very trendy. Unfortunately I also read Michael Crichton's excellent novel State of Fear which fuels my sceptisism especially after I checked some of the quoted references.

There also seems to be some discrepancy between the IPCC figures and NASA data. Is it no wonder the phrase "there are lies, damned lies and statistics" seems to be a common though in so many people these days.

I do believe the truth is out there but not when politicians get involved.

Online Geoff Reid

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #67 on: July 23, 2008, 01:36:36 PM »
 
 
I'm quickly leaning towards treating the IPCC 'Summary For Policy Makers' with extreme suspicion and am almost at the gates of completely believing that a subject which is completely worthy of our full scientific attention, has been utterly consumed by political agendas, aims and desired outcomes. Not one of which will benefit the planet significantly, but will cost each of us dearly, and some their very lives.

Hand the evidence gathering back to the real scientists, let them argue, theorize and peer review everything and then allow them to tell us what they've found, what they think will or will not happen, and let them suggest what need, or need not be done.

When politicians want to stick their damp little paws into subjects they're not mentally equipped to understand, let alone legislate upon, they should be nailed to the nearest tree with haste.

Offline komadori

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #68 on: July 23, 2008, 11:43:20 PM »

Hand the evidence gathering back to the real scientists, let them argue, theorize and peer review everything and then allow them to tell us what they've found, what they think will or will not happen, and let them suggest what need, or need not be done.


That's laudable in principle but difficult in practice. Scientists, being people, have their own political opinions. It's difficult to separate the two, especially when most are also dependent on governments (or the agents of governments) for their funding.

It is a common misconception that scientists discuss amongst themselves and ultimately come to a logical consensus. It doesn't work like that. Scientists discuss amongst themselves. The discussion creates a consensus amongst many but not all. There will be a few that hold out with opinions that are not supported by the majority of the evidence. Those few continue to hold those opinions until they retire from the argument. New researcher look at the evidence afresh and support the side with the convincing evidence. Consensus is reached not by winning over all those with unfounded opinions, but by waiting for those that cannot be convinced to die out.

On that basis there's probably 20 years to wait until the argument over global warming is settled.

Note that I'm not saying that I don't believe the conventional wisdom that global warming is primarily a consequence of human activity. (I am by training a scientist and studied this particular subject as am undergraduate student: I believe the evidence for man-made global warming is overwhelming.) I am just pointing out the difficulty and long timescale of taking the approach that Geoff suggests.
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Offline Alan Hayward

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #69 on: October 04, 2008, 01:35:30 AM »

 
I'm quickly leaning towards treating the IPCC 'Summary For Policy Makers' with extreme suspicion and am almost at the gates of completely believing that a subject which is completely worthy of our full scientific attention, has been utterly consumed by political agendas, aims and desired outcomes. Not one of which will benefit the planet significantly, but will cost each of us dearly, and some their very lives.

Hand the evidence gathering back to the real scientists, let them argue, theorize and peer review everything and then allow them to tell us what they've found, what they think will or will not happen, and let them suggest what need, or need not be done.

When politicians want to stick their damp little paws into subjects they're not mentally equipped to understand, let alone legislate upon, they should be nailed to the nearest tree with haste.

I love Geoff.

He's coming round to reality.

Hang on in there mate.  ))))
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Offline robert feal-martinez

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #70 on: October 04, 2008, 09:28:32 AM »
Global Warming: 2500 for 30,000 Against
Faced with such a massive majority of scientists now saying the planet is actually cooling not warming one would have thought the EU would have the common sense to back off this issue. But not so.

UKIP calls for open debate on climate

Wednesday, 24th September 2008

UKIP MEP Graham Booth has called for "a full and open debate" on climate change before the EU goes ahead with plans to spend billions of pounds on measures which could prove to be unnecessary.

"The whole climate change programme has given the EU yet another excuse to flex its muscles and show the world how important it is, claiming that this is an issue that nation states cannot deal with alone," Mr Booth said in a speech to the European Parliament.

"The 20-20-20 slogan is a typical example of a catchy phrase to work with – 20% of energy in the EU from renewable sources, a 20% reduction in carbon emissions, all by the year 2020. But you are missing the most important point.

"Is any of this necessary?"

Mr Booth said the International Panel on Climate Change had claimed that 2,500 scientists were all in agreement that CO2 was responsible for global warming and that we humans were the culprits. Al Gore's infamous film confirmed that view.

"However, since then, over 30,000 scientists and climatologists have signed the Oregon Petition and the Manhattan Declaration, which directly challenge the IPCC conclusions, with some very compelling evidence.

"So, while we are urged to believe the IPCC's 2,500 scientists, we are being told to completely ignore the 30,000 scientists who are painting a different picture."

Mr Booth, who will retire as an MEP at the end of September, said the EU was persuading nations across the world to spend billions of pounds of taxpayers' money at a time when the world was facing dire financial problems. That expenditure might not only be totally unnecessary but could well be counter-productive if the latest evidence of global cooling proved to be correct.

"We must have a full and open debate to prove exactly who is right. What do supporters of the IPCC's position have to fear?"

Alan Hayward noted in his piece that 'Pro' Scientists and certain vested interests simply use the mantra, that anyone who doesn't believe in Global Warming, is a 'nutter'. no matter how eminent they are. This is exactly the same mantra used about passive smoking. Despite not one shred of evidence that Passive Smoking is anything other than an irritant smoking restrictions are being rolled out world wide, communities and businesses are being devastated, non more so than the UK. Of almost 150 pieces of research those that have been independently peer reviewed reveal Relative Risks way below the levels necessary to show a causative association, and yet Governments funded by Big Drug Company money. Continue to propher the lie.

Science and Scientist are being corrupted by the biggest evil of all, MONEY.


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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #71 on: October 12, 2008, 02:19:55 AM »
"However, since then, over 30,000 scientists and climatologists have signed the Oregon Petition and the Manhattan Declaration, which directly challenge the IPCC conclusions, with some very compelling evidence."

Anyone with a BSc in a science-related subject could sign it. So for example a someone who got a D in electrical engineering at uni 20 years ago and since then has worked for the Post Office could sign the Oregon Petition.

The "Compelling evidence" he refers to is a collection of outright errors arguments using out of date and/or cherrypicked data (http://www.petitionproject.org/gwdatabase/GWPP/Review_Article.html)

Comparing the IPCC report with that pack of rubbish is possibly one of the worst comparisons I have heard.

This bit made me chuckle:
"We must have a full and open debate to prove exactly who is right. What do supporters of the IPCC's position have to fear?"

What does it even mean? Typical political cliche talking point.



Offline Mart

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #72 on: April 01, 2009, 08:26:44 PM »
I am undecided about climate change, some will nod knowingly and agree that I apossess a shrewd and incisive mind, some will splutter that I am a feckless moron. Each of you could be right on any given day. Sometimes I am both simultaneously.

On one matter I am decided. Political effort is being expended to make political capital of the global warming phenomenon, and that effort is being expended at the expense of meaningful progress, as a consequence this pleasant land could be greener.

Here is an example of what I mean, I am exasperated with the letter writer because if he is that confident he should be more vocal, marginally more exasperated with the recipient, rising to incandescent rage if what the letter implies is true.

Peter Lilley to Ed Milliband.

Dear Secretary of State

You recently slipped out, without notifying Parliament, a massive revision of the estimated costs and benefits of the Climate Change Act.

I hope that on consideration, you will agree that changes amounting to nearly £1 trillion require both discussion in, and explanation to, Parliament. This is particularly important given the extraordinary way the government treated its own original estimates of the costs and benefits of the Climate Change Bill during the Bill’s passage through Parliament.

You will recall that your original estimates of costs and benefits of the Climate Change Bill showed that its potential costs (1) at some £205 billion were almost twice the maximum benefits of £110 billion. This was embarrassing for you because the reason governments are required to publish an Impact Assessment giving estimates of costs and benefits of any Bill is to enable Parliament to “determine whether the benefits justify the costs” (2).

In this case, on the basis of your figures, they clearly did not. Moreover, your initial calculations were based on the original target of reducing emissions by 60%, which was increased to 80% during the passage of the Bill. Normally each extra percentage reduction will require increasing marginal costs and generate declining marginal benefits. So the higher target was likely to make the disparity between costs and benefits even worse.

You nonetheless ignored your own department’s figures, refused to discuss them and proceeded to drive the Bill through – surely the first time any government has recommended Parliament to vote for a Bill which its own Assessment showed could cost far more than the maximum benefits?

However, you promised to produce revised estimates though, rather bizarrely, not in time for Parliament to consider them but after Royal Assent.

Five months have passed since then. Inevitably such a lengthy delay arouses suspicions – aggravated by the scale of the changes – that the figures have had to be heavily massaged to remove the original embarrassment.

The new figures for both costs and benefits have indeed been changed dramatically. As so often in the debate on Global Warming – when the facts don’t fit the theory they change the facts.

As recently as your last departmental question time on 5th March your Minister of State, Joan Ruddock, suggested to me that the original estimate of potential costs of up to £205 billion might be too high. She said “We are likely to find that the costs, which covered a very large range, were exaggerated…” Yet despite correcting for any previous downward bias the revised figures you have now published are not lower but substantially higher. The bottom of the new range for costs is in fact £324 billion – nearly 60% higher than the highest figure I have been quoting. And the top of the range is now £404 billion.

In other words the government now estimates that the Climate Change Act will cost every household in the country between £16,000 and £20,000 each.

When it comes to your revised estimates of the benefits, however, we enter Alice in Wonderland territory. Even though costs have broadly doubled, the embarrassment of them exceeding your own estimate of the maximum benefits has been eliminated. The benefits have been dramatically increased tenfold from £105 billion to over £1 trillion. I congratulate on finding nearly £1 trillion of benefits which had previously escaped your notice.

But surely such an astounding discovery merits explanation? The one element of the revision which is mentioned appears, of itself, to justify doubling estimates based on the previous methodology. But where did the rest of the newly discovered benefits arise from?

As you know, having studied physics at Cambridge, I do not dispute the existence of a greenhouse effect, though I am sceptical about the model building which seeks to amplify it. I support sensible measures to reduce CO2 emissions, economise on hydrocarbon use and help the poorest countries adapt to adverse climate change whatever it cause – as long as the measures we adopt are sensible and cost effective. But we cannot judge what is sensible and cost effective if we do not have reliable figures, and subject them to proper parliamentary scrutiny.

When the Department slips out figures which it appears to be unable to explain, unwilling to debate and which are so flaky they vary by a factor of ten - it can only provoke scepticism.

I should be grateful if you could answer the following questions:

1) When will Parliament be given an opportunity to discuss these new figures?

2) What is the explanation of the huge revisions in costs and, more particularly, benefits?

3) Why has it taken five months to produce these revised figures?

4) What is the purpose of publishing Impact Assessments which are ignored or not available until after Parliament has considered a Bill?

5) Which minister signed off the required declaration that the original Impact Assessment “represented a reasonable view of the likely costs, benefits and impact”?

6) Can you confirm that the costs of the Climate Change Act amount to between £16,000 and £20,000 for every UK household?

7) Can you confirm that the revised cost estimates still exclude transitional costs (which could amount to 1% of GDP up to 2020), ignore the cost of driving British firms overseas, and assume that all businesses identify and immediately apply the most carbon efficient technology available?

8) Can you confirm that although the costs of the Act will fall on UK households the benefits will largely accrue to the rest of the world?

9) Can you confirm that the Climate Change Act binds UK governments to pursue the targets regardless of whether other countries follow our lead (or indeed whether the climate warms or not)?

Yours sincerely

Peter Lilley



Creative semantics is the key to contemporary government; it consists of talking in strange tongues lest the public learn the inevitable inconveniently early.

Offline Simon

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #73 on: April 01, 2009, 08:45:50 PM »
Peter Lilley, by attempting to reduce the issue to a matter of income vs expenditure, typifies precisely the sort of short-sighted capitalist thinking which got us into this mess in the first place.

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Offline Simon

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #74 on: April 01, 2009, 08:49:42 PM »
On one matter I am decided. Political effort is being expended to make political capital of the global warming phenomenon, and that effort is being expended at the expense of meaningful progress, as a consequence this pleasant land could be greener.

I'll agree with you there. Lots of people in politics and business are jumping on the global warming bandwagon, and we must be more careful than ever to sort the green from the greenwash, those who want to make a difference from those who want to turn the situation to their advantage.
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Online Geoff Reid

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #75 on: April 01, 2009, 11:25:45 PM »
 
I think I'm pretty much in the category of:

"Don't necessarily accept the global warming/climate change science as being correct but we should be far less wasteful, consume and pollute less anyway" brigade. (if that brigade exists. If it didn't - it does now.

I'm struggling to understand why consuming less, and polluting less, should cost each of us so much more though?, the figures are astronomical.....   


Speaking only for myself, I would happily never fly anywhere again provided I'm once again freed from our Government snooping in my own country. Part of the reason I do like to get away is the simple act of getting away from the pervasive stench of a government and country descending into an authoritarian gloom.

Offline komadori

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #76 on: April 02, 2009, 11:46:40 PM »
Peter Lilley, by attempting to reduce the issue to a matter of income vs expenditure, typifies precisely the sort of short-sighted capitalist thinking which got us into this mess in the first place.

No, he's doing what I would expect any good parliamentarian to do when considering spending our money. It isn't an argument of "Lets not do this at all and just screw the planet" but one of "Could we spend the money more effectively on other environmental measures." There's nothing short-sighted about trying to make the most effective use of tax-payers' money.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #77 on: April 03, 2009, 09:13:22 AM »
Simon - there's no doubting that capitalist thinking IS to 'blame' for the effects of global warming - but the extent of the sacrifice required to do anything really meaningful would be so extreme that our entire (not just using electric cars and recycling!) way of life would have to change. Those changes would require a winding back of the clock to pre-Victorian levels of existance.

Our society, its values - and even the ability to navel gaze and discuss these issues - using a fossil-fuel produced and powered pc - only EXIST because of the 'capitalist system'. To defeat global warming would require a fundamental rethinking of every element of modern life - and, sadly, require steps which would remove the vast majority of the benefits which come with it. Consequently, nothing serious of meaningful is ever going to get done. All we'll ever get is platitudes, half measures and double standards. We can see what's likely to happen - but are ultiumately, realistically, powerless to do anything about it. Blaming the bankers and industrialists is easy - but even the crusties throwing bricks through windows in London wear clothes, shoes, have dentistry, use the nhs, use public transport, claim benefits, use the internet etc. - even if they don't pay their taxes. They are as much a product of the 'system' and reliant upon it as those they derride.

Global warming is happening - and will go on happening. Realistically, logically, nothing and more importantly, nobody is going to stop it - whether its man made or natural.
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Offline Mellon

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #78 on: May 31, 2009, 11:25:16 AM »
Global warming is happening - and will go on happening. Realistically, logically, nothing and more importantly, nobody is going to stop it - whether its man made or natural.
bang on there tobes.......one thing that has always struck me odd is that water vapour (for those of you who dont know - it is a greenhouse gas) accounts for nearly 70% of greenhouse gases and no one thinks of mentioning it?! yes we have Co2 and N2 but they only account for around 25%. NOW! i have a question......each person spews out around 350 litres of Co2 each day and around 6 Billion people on the planet sow how much Co2 is being released each year? compared to the biggest polluting nations on the earth (pick any countries you like).

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Offline komadori

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Re: Carbon Dioxide & Global Warming - Case not proven...
« Reply #79 on: May 31, 2009, 11:27:57 PM »
I think the reason water vapour is usually not mentioned is because the amount of it in the atmosphere is relatively static whereas the amount of carbon dioxide is rising. There's also not much you can do to reduce the amount of water vapour in the atmosphere, given the influence that the oceans have.
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