Talkswindon

Coffee Talk & What's On => Swindon Local Media => Topic started by: Des Morgan on December 09, 2010, 10:51:30 AM

Title: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Des Morgan on December 09, 2010, 10:51:30 AM
The Adver has carried a story regarding 4 teenagers who have been made subject to an ASBO with some quite serious conditions attached. The big issue for the Adver editor is the decision of the magistrate to allow the teenagers anonymity. Dave King asks 'how can anyone know if the teenagers breach the ASBO terms, if they don't know who the teenagers are?' I have written to the adver as follows:
Quote
  Sir – The decision of a Swindon magistrate to allow anonymity to four teenagers who have been given ASBO’s is as absurd as it is improper. Mr David Rogers the magistrate concerned should today be ‘considering his position’ as his decision ignores clear guidelines from the Home Office and flies in the face of common sense. The primary object of an ASBO order is to prohibit people from undertaking specific actions in specific places, in the case reported in the Adver (SA 9 Dec) one person has also been made subject to a curfew order. It makes life for the police much more difficult when the public at large are unaware of the name or identity of the person against whom the order was made; if the public knew, it is likely that the police would be informed if there was breach of the ASBO conditions.

What Mr Rogers has done is issue an order which has no force behind it, thus making any enforcement of the order almost impossible. He has attempted to appear tough but acted weak, even worse in not allowing the Adver the opportunity to make representation to him, he has demonstrated a superior attitude more akin to that of the 19th century magistracy than the enlightened 21st century.   

The simple rule should be that anyone convicted of an offence in the courts should expect their name to be known. Whilst being the quote of a Lord Chief Justice described as the ‘worst ever’ the age old aphorism ‘it is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance, that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done’ is undoubtedly a statement which would resonate with many Adver readers. The principle that justice must be seen to be done is an essential part of the administration of justice in our legal system. It informs and energises the most fundamental aspects of our procedure and is the origin, in whole or in part, of numerous substantive rules of which the overriding obligation of a court is to deliver justice according to law.

I hope that Mr David Rogers might find it within his compass to properly embrace the principle of open justice in any court in which he sits in future.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Ringer on December 09, 2010, 12:05:21 PM
I am sure the magistrates have their reasons for not letting the people know who they are, I am sure the police do and the communities that they are being anti social in also know their identity.

In some towns police post photographs of the people given ASBOs in the area they are redacted from. I am sure the magistrates know what they are doing, I wonder what the local councillors think on this matter?

The court has made its decision and I think that may be  final?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 09, 2010, 12:07:02 PM
There is something rotten to the very core in Swindon's court rooms, of that there is no doubt whatsoever. And it's not just the criminals.

Rob Ross must thank his lucky stars, every night, to be blessed with such gullible, deluded and hopelessly misguided colleagues.

Quite why there hasn't been an investigation into the routinely unduly lenient non-sentences handed down by Judge Douglas 'I'm told you've given up drugs. Again.' Field I really do not know.

@Ringer: your apparent faith in the actions/decisions of the magistrates is at once both worrying and mystifying.




Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 09, 2010, 02:33:33 PM
I was asked by the local press for my opinion on this. As the Police and magistrates HAVE named ASBO kids in the past, they must have a very good reason for not doing it this time.

Enough to say that those who they are terrorising will know who they are, it will be very localised and could be being done to protect those that are reporting things.  It's a very brave thing to do.

Of course the press are miffed that they can't, because they do know who they are.

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 09, 2010, 03:32:08 PM
I was asked by the local press for my opinion on this. As the Police and magistrates HAVE named ASBO kids in the past, they must have a very good reason for not doing it this time.

Non-sequitor.

Enough to say that those who they are terrorising will know who they are, it will be very localised and could be being done to protect those that are reporting things.  It's a very brave thing to do.

If it's very localised and the criminals concerned are being reported, surely they already know who's reporting them? The more people that know who they are, the less likely it is they could pin the 'grassing' on anyone in particular. Not releasing the names actually puts those who are living under this terrorism under greater pressure, rather than less.

Anyway, if things are that bad (and I suspect they're actually worse), why the hell aren't these criminals in prison?

Handing out ASBOs where you're too scared of the criminals concerned to even name them essentially proves what a pointless, soft-option thpse ASBOs reall are. Not that we needed any more proof than we already have. Once again, the criminals themselves will be wetting themselves with laughter at the magistrates, police and their victims. We're so pathetic we won't even name them after they've been given their worthless little social contracts.

Of course the press are miffed that they can't, because they do know who they are.

The press are miffed because they know just what's going on in our local courtrooms, sadly.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 09, 2010, 03:39:54 PM
Came back on, because of I remembered something about one of them being too young to name (20 eyes note: I didn't make this law, not even sure if  I agree with it) 

and another why maybe they couldn't name the others is that perhaps, just perhaps proper grown up legal things are outstanding against them and naming them now might mess that up. 

This is not an opinion, just a point of (possible) information.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: DavidPayne on December 09, 2010, 04:20:46 PM
It is risible that these miscreants are allowed State-supported secrecy - never mind being named, a detailed article in the Adver. with a mug-shot would be nearer the mark.

It would be a huge step forward in the interests of justice for every bench of ‘lay’ magistrates to include a psychologist because what is manifestly missing from our Legal system is the application of human-nature based, corrective restraint.

When anti-social hoodlums were historically locked into stocks in the public square it was for ridicule and humiliation – and what better way to dispatch that one-third of our weekly fresh-food purchases we are charged with squandering to land-fill, than to lob it at the smirking gob of a recidivist.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 09, 2010, 04:25:48 PM
I'm sorry, but the quotes featured in the Adver article from Chairman of the magistrates, David Rogers, are absolutely and utterly astonishing (not to mention frightening) in their naivety and delusion. How on earth do these people ever reach, let alone maintain, such positions?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 09, 2010, 04:38:04 PM
Old boys Club?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Des Morgan on December 09, 2010, 04:54:53 PM
Oh Muggins you are such a cynic :santa_wink:
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 09, 2010, 05:37:38 PM
Old boys Club?

Indeed. It would seem that way, especially for circuit/Crown court judges.

The sooner we move to locally elected judges, the better. Although, given that the coalition seem hell bent on being even more inept over Law & Order than even New Labour were, I won't be expecting such a progression just yet.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 09, 2010, 06:24:13 PM
The Adver came late today and I have now read the article. Much as I hate to think it, I would say that if the case was fairly reported and the quotes verbatim,  and/or the lad was small for his age, then the judge/magistrate whatever, in the quote to the boy, that his parents would not love him any more and that he would fall of the cliff of growing up decent - then I have to say TOO LATE MATE Sir. 

Name and shame this boy - now, unless there is more coming to him in the way of court cases.  It's not fair to the others that have been named.  The more he does in grown up crime the sooner we'll be rid of him.

I wonder if it was him I could hear on an illegal motorcycle late this afternoon? 
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 09, 2010, 09:56:51 PM
A couple of points need to be considered here (and I am fully in favour of naming and shaming)

The Adver has carried a story regarding 4 teenagers who have been made subject to an ASBO with some quite serious conditions attached.

Quote
In the latest disgraceful episode, a 16-year-old from Penhill was handed a strict three-month interim anti-social behaviour order with a string of conditions.

Actually these are INTERIM ASBO’s not the full ASBO’s. The full ASBO’s will be granted at a full hearing when the defendants will have a full chance to have their legal representative review and challenge any evidence put forward by the Council and the Police. Basically these interim orders are like bail conditions and because of the age of those involved, as with most cases of juveniles, matters are not reported, if ever, before a full trial is heard.

Publicising Anti-social behaviour orders guidelines
Quote
  It will usually be appropriate to issue publicity when a full order is made rather than an interim order.
However, exceptions can be made, for example,where the anti-social behaviour is severe,where there has been extreme intimidation or where there is a delay between the making of the interim order and the outcome of the final hearing.
In the case of Keating v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (2004) the judge held that publicity could be used for interim orders.
In these circumstances it should be stated in the publicity that the order is temporary, that a hearing for a ‘full’ order will follow, and distribution should be extremely localised.

I am sure the magistrates have their reasons for not letting the people know who they are, I am sure the police do and the communities that they are being anti social in also know their identity.

Yes the community, particularly those who have been subjected to the Anti Social Behaviour, would have been given a copy of the interim orders. Local councillors will also have been given a copy.

What is prevented is the PUBLICATION of their names and the conditions set against the individuals in writing.
This does NOT prevent the spreading of the individual names by word of mouth, and rest assured this is happening.

And if the full ASBO’s are granted also rest assured that they will be named, along with their photo’s, and truly shamed.

p.s.
I’m sure if TalkSwindon wanted to publish the names then they could be furnished with them. However given the court’s order I doubt if they would be able to.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Des Morgan on December 09, 2010, 10:28:52 PM
The ASBO as you say is an Interim ASBO - However it is for 3 months and on a reading of Dave King's article i think it pretty clear this young person is not in trouble for the first time (apologies if i am wrong) 

I accept that some people will be aware of his conditions, indeed i dare say he will be telling his mates as for some an ASBO is worth at least 5 GCSEs.

The point the Adver is amking is twofold. The first that the youth has not been named which really does make the enforcement of the conditions a bit flakey. The second and i think the worst aspect of the whole business is the decision of the magistrate to not allow The Adver to make representation in court.

 
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 09, 2010, 10:47:25 PM
The ASBO as you say is an Interim ASBO - However it is for 3 months and on a reading of Dave King's article i think it pretty clear this young person is not in trouble for the first time (apologies if i am wrong) 

I accept that some people will be aware of his conditions, indeed i dare say he will be telling his mates as for some an ASBO is worth at least 5 GCSEs.

The point the Adver is amking is twofold. The first that the youth has not been named which really does make the enforcement of the conditions a bit flakey. The second and i think the worst aspect of the whole business is the decision of the magistrate to not allow The Adver to make representation in court.

 

You’ll find no disagreement from me.. as I said in my post

(and I am fully in favour of naming and shaming)

All I was trying to do was clear up a few points that may have been the reasons behind the decision by the magistrate and the very important difference between a full and interim ASBO.

A full ASBO will normally be for at least 2 years, the 3 months is as I said, very much like bail conditions to allow the defence and persecution to put together the full court case. As this is not a criminal matter but a civil one, bail or conditions do not apply and that is why interim orders are normally made.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Richard Symonds on December 09, 2010, 11:19:03 PM
How can anyone respect the law when it manifests itself in this way?

The law has no teeth and unless it is enforceable and backed by the society it serves it is not worth the paper on which it is written.

The worst mistakes of twelve years of Labour Government were that they thought they could legislate for anything and everything.  The truth is that more often than not existing law already covered most requirements and the problem lay with the police bringing evidence to court and the legal authorities dealing with crime in appropriate ways.

Now with Ken Clarke's new prison policies being aired I feel we are on the edge of abyce and at the point of no return.   Come back Guido Fawkes all is forgiven.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 09, 2010, 11:42:20 PM
Richard

One of the things that ASBO’s orders did (which are civil proceedings) was bring in was the ability for professional (such as Police and Council Officers etc) to give hearsay evidence on behalf of the victims. This was very important because too many victims are so frightened that without the ability to have hearsay evidence presented to the court their suffering would never be heard.

If ASBO’s were criminal proceddings (or if ASBO’s are abolished in favour of criminal proceedings for breaches of existing laws), then hearsay evidence will not be allowed, people will still not go into the witness box due to fear and gang terror will rule the streets.

ASBO's can work, they just need the proper enforcement.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 10, 2010, 08:04:15 AM
I’m sure if TalkSwindon wanted to publish the names then they could be furnished with them. However given the court’s order I doubt if they would be able to.

Agreed. There is nothing to stop anyone mentioning the names of the criminals concerned on a public forum.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Des Morgan on December 10, 2010, 09:24:43 AM
I am indebted to Bogomil for his explanations about Interim ASBOs - would he agree with me that consistency in the application of the law is as important as its transparency, if so would he not find a report in today's Adver a little odd.

At Swindon Magistrates Court yesterday a Mr Abdi Muse was given an Interim ASBO and in this case he was named and shamed. The strange thing about this action was that the Magistrate who made the order was the self same David Rogers - odd or what?

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 10, 2010, 09:59:08 AM
Firstly, have no doubt, that previous ASBO interim order receivers very soon find that it's no fun and nothing to brag about receiving an ASBO, they might be cocky at first, but the smirk is soon wiped away. their familys usually have no alternative but to move and if they allow their children to continue with ASB they are in sever dangr of losing their homes with no resourse to the borough (if in council housing) for fruther accomodation - it is considered to have made themselves homeless by their actions or lack of action.

Not only that there's not enough of them to brag to each other at any length. The ASBO affects the whole family and there is no hiding place, the longer it goes on the worse it gets. They are not dragged to court and forgotten about, due to their youth, a whole process kicks in, to try to bring this to a better end without them ending up with criminal record. I'm sure you will all agree this is the best outcome, that they should mend their ways. And live on the become contributors to TS?  :santa_grin:

When it get's to the stage of Interim ASBO, this means that there is no other way, it's a last warning. Be sure that this boy will be named at the next one and we only have 13 weeks to wait - if this doesn't make him change his ways. 

Ah, thanks Bogo for pointing out what I had missed - the Interim ASBO.

Des, maybe Mr Abdi Muse was over 18?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 10, 2010, 10:30:01 AM
Firstly, have no doubt, that previous ASBO interim order receivers very soon find that it's no fun and nothing to brag about receiving an ASBO, they might be cocky at first, but the smirk is soon wiped away.


Why? Nothing happens if they break the ASBO - as around 70% of those who receive them do.

their familys usually have no alternative but to move and if they allow their children to continue with ASB they are in sever dangr of losing their homes with no resourse to the borough (if in council housing) for fruther accomodation - it is considered to have made themselves homeless by their actions or lack of action.


You fail to mention that Councils do have a duty to re-house these people. Sometimes the families do have to move to a different Council area, but, regardless, they do have to re-house them. They are NOT left on the streets and they know that only too well.

When it get's to the stage of Interim ASBO, this means that there is no other way, it's a last warning. Be sure that this boy will be named at the next one and we only have 13 weeks to wait - if this doesn't make him change his ways.


This is the problem, these people know damn well that they have about five 'final' warnings:

1. Police caution/warning (totally meaningless non-punishment, whatever they might claim)
2. Interim ASBO (totally meaningless non-punishment, whatever they might claim)
3. ASBO (totally meaningless non-punishment, whatever they might claim)
4. Community Service (totally meaningless non-punishment, if they even complete it, whatever they might claim)
5. Suspended Sentence (the most totally meaningless non-punishment of them all)
6. Prison (you can strike this one from the list if Kenny Clarke gets his way)

The people who receive ASBOs simply laugh at how stupid we've been to actually catch them, find them guilty but then do absolutely nothing about it. ASBOs have failed, they're a waste of time and resources. About the only thing they don't do is to prevent, reduce or effectively punish crime.

Quote
ASBO effectiveness has also been questioned. In a House of Commons reply it was stated that 53.7% of ASBOs were breached in England in 2005; 69.4% in 2006; 70.3% in 2007


Pathetic.

Quote
The National Audit Office, which analysed 1,000 cases dating from 1999 to April 2006, said 35% of Asbo holders had breached their order five or more times.

Recent research by the Youth Justice Board found similar results and the study said that Asbos had become a "badge of honour" among young people.

Source: [url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6214662.stm[/url] ([url]http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6214662.stm[/url])


Pathetic.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 10, 2010, 10:34:40 AM
It was pathetic, and mostly down to the partnerships not having got their act together - or taking the subject seriously enough.  Work was done and they were given gee-ups to get it done, it was a big issue.  Seeking out a successful way to go about it was emerging.

Those figures have changed.  The kids do try it on, to breach their orders, but it doesn't ge them very far now. Luckily they don't stay 16 for long a bit of maturity does sometimes work wonders, but as we know not everyone grows up no matter how old they are.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Des Morgan on December 10, 2010, 10:38:54 AM
Just by way of advice - please do NOT be tempted to name the boy on the TS site. If you do the person naming him and Geoff Reid would be held in contempt of court for breaching the section 39 order. Christmas could be spent in chokey as contempt is treated much worse than acts of violence etc  :santa_wink:
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 10, 2010, 11:16:52 AM
Those figures have changed.  The kids do try it on, to breach their orders, but it doesn't ge them very far now.


I'm not doubting that you believe that to be the case, but I'd really have to see some evidence in order to believe that. In 2007 over 70% of people breached their ASBOs but two years later they all toe the line? Hmm.

Given that:

Quote
Just 2 per cent of ASBO breaches are currently punished by a prison sentence

[url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs[/url] ([url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs[/url])


Why would anyone bother to comply with them?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 10, 2010, 11:27:27 AM
I believe it, because , for one the problems have stooped out side my house!

There have been about four/five cases where ASB has been stopped on the estate. 

I have seen a marked improvement in the partners working together.

We attend Neighbourhood Safety Team meetings for regular updates.

I have been to Respect and Police conferences and heard this from around the country.

We held our own conference so that very local people could attend. 

I have seen and heard local people stand up an bear witness and heard their stories. One of them a remarkably brave lady, did loads of research which she shared with us and we pioneered ASBO information boxes, which were added to by the Swindon Safety Partnership and distributed to all of our local community facilites, so that anyone could have access to that info in one place and the idea was taken up and was going to be put out across the town. 

Still what do I know?

 

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 10, 2010, 11:43:33 AM
I believe it, because , for one the problems have stooped out side my house!

<snip>

Still what do I know?


I don't doubt that you know what's going on outside your house, or even in your immediate area.

I've just found that:

Quote
MOJ aim to publish data for 2009 by the end of December 2010 and data for 2010 by the end of October 2011. The ASBO publication will continue to be treated as an Official Statistics publication and precise publication dates will be pre-announced as soon as possible following the Code of Practice for Official Statistics.


http://www.statewatch.org/asbo/asbo_statistics_july_2010.pdf (http://www.statewatch.org/asbo/asbo_statistics_july_2010.pdf)

So, we'll hopefully soon have the proper evidence to hand. I very much doubt that the percentage of ASBOs breached will have dropped by much, if at all.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 10, 2010, 11:51:21 AM
Des, be assured I would not be tempted to name the boy, even if I knew his name. Iif I did know his name I would not be able to indentify him by it!

I might by description....short, tall, thin, fat, dark, fair, hoodie, stripey shirt, that type of thing.   

Anyway, I'm an upstanding (when I'm not a sitting down one!) citizen, why should I want to break an order evoked by a judge/magistrate, that would be just plain stupid.  Even if we thought the order was stupid, which in the circumstances I don't particularly.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Terry Reynolds on December 10, 2010, 03:59:10 PM
the answer to the question must be yes and questions must be asked why mr Ross is able to make a living defending this dross......
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 10, 2010, 04:09:19 PM
the answer to the question must be yes and questions must be asked why mr Ross is able to make a living defending this dross......

Rob Ross is definitely missing his true vocation. I mean, he's literally a miracle worker... within mere days of meeting him, people who have had life-long battles with serious drug addictions suddenly find themselves cured of those addictions and free from the curse of their demons.

It's truly heartening to read about these events during his summing up speeches.

There can't be a single drug addicted criminal left in Swindon, thanks to Mr Ross' intervention.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Mellon on December 10, 2010, 09:28:18 PM
They've probably moved onto coprophilia (dunno the correct spelling it maybe right) and spend all day lying on the floor outside Euclid street waiting for Bluh and Co to give them a speech.......I reckon we should dress em up in pink jumpsuits stick a sandwich board over em with something entertaining written on en  and make them stand on a roundabout all day
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 10, 2010, 10:13:21 PM
I am indebted to Bogomil for his explanations about Interim ASBOs - would he agree with me that consistency in the application of the law is as important as its transparency, if so would he not find a report in today's Adver a little odd.

At Swindon Magistrates Court yesterday a Mr Abdi Muse was given an Interim ASBO and in this case he was named and shamed. The strange thing about this action was that the Magistrate who made the order was the self same David Rogers - odd or what?

Des Thanks for the comment, even more interesting is

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8479182.ASBO_for__firebomb_threat__man__19/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8479182.ASBO_for__firebomb_threat__man__19/)

and this little angel had already been kicked off the Penhill Estate when he was younger due to his antics.

Although this might appear inconsistent I think you will find that it is down to age… the 4 on this occasion (3 on the 23/11 and a further 1 on the 7/12) are all classed as juveniles, whilst the others are classed as adults.

Just by way of advice - please do NOT be tempted to name the boy on the TS site. If you do the person naming him and Geoff Reid would be held in contempt of court for breaching the section 39 order. Christmas could be spent in chokey as contempt is treated much worse than acts of violence etc  :santa_wink:

mmmm I wish you hadn’t posted this… I bet there are a few in the know at the civic who would just love to see Geoff in the chokey :santa_wink: (Only Joking Geoff)

But would it still be a breach if the individual names became known by criptic clues and subterfuge  :santa_grin:
Firstly, have no doubt, that previous ASBO interim order receivers very soon find that it's no fun and nothing to brag about receiving an ASBO, they might be cocky at first, but the smirk is soon wiped away.

Why? Nothing happens if they break the ASBO - as around 70% of those who receive them do.

You fail to mention that Councils do have a duty to re-house these people. Sometimes the families do have to move to a different Council area, but, regardless, they do have to re-house them. They are NOT left on the streets and they know that only too well.

20Eyes
In reality what actually happens is…
Someone reports a breach of an ASBO to the Police. The response Police (quite wrongly in my opinion) as soon as they learn it is a ASBO breach pass it on to the Neighbourhood Policing Team, which is usually 1Beat Manager (a Police Officer) and a couple of PCSO’s. As the Police Officer is the only one who can follow this up, it then left to him/her to do all the work (along with all his/her other Neighbourhood Policing Duties and when he/she is not being pulled off to cover other duties which is also a regular occurrence. (I’m sure Muggins can support me in this)

When someone breaks an ASBO it becomes a criminal matter, so the person reporting the breach of the ASBO has to be prepared to
A) Make a Statement (hearsay statements cannot be made in a criminal matter)
B) Go into court if necessary.
Quite understandably, as these little angels didn’t get the ASBO in the first place for their sense of neighbourhood responsibility or kindness, very few are prepared to put their heads above the parapet for fear of reprisals. (And don’t forget before they go into court they get a copy of the statement with the witnesses name and address)

With regard to rehousing the family, this is not quite true. The council do have to temporarily house the family if they have been evicted but, subject to an appeal process, the tenant who’s been evicted because of the behaviour of their children can be deemed to have made themselves homeless and does not have to be rehoused by the council.


Muggins
Take heart according to his facebook page, at least one of your local councillors is being very vocal on the issue of naming and shaming (and publishing the photos) these kids (and adults) on ASBO’s
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Chav on December 10, 2010, 10:52:16 PM
In my opinion - I think that to make an ASBO effective - then yes the ASBOee should be named and pictured. It should be part of it !

I also think that the serial offenders which they would be to gain an ASBO in the first place should also have the input of professionals to work with them to help them break the cycle .
I also believe that part of the ASBO should include the offender being placed appropriately within the community to work as a volunteer and put something back !

That is my opinion and I would stand by this if one of my children went off the rails and ended up with an ASBO.

They would have the chance to turn themselves around and do good with the appropriate support and consistency from professionals, however, the naming and pictures should go with an ASBO regardless as this in it's self could be a deterrent to others !

I also know from personal experience, that ASBOS are not just given out for the sake of it, as it takes a lot of time, manpower (police/witnesses ) to gain the evidence to put to the court to apply for and issue an ASBO.

The people who are served ASBO'S are not just one -off offenders, they commit ASBO related offensences over a period of time and continue to do so despite warnings.

So to name and show who they are - should make them think twice as the community will know who they are and will report them if they recognise them if they break the conditions as set out with the ASBO.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 11, 2010, 08:18:20 AM
Bogo:  I can support you in what you say and yes, I know our councillor has been very active in supporting the community in this issue - once standing, with the mother, over a lad and making him clean my windows.......

Chav, In effect they and their parents do get that support, that's why it takes so long from first report to full ASBO. 

There will always be one or two that will go on to a life of crime unfortunately.   

ps. no thanks to them coming back into the community to payback.  Yes, they do need to payback, but once we are rid of them we don't want to see them again, even if they become angels.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 11, 2010, 09:45:14 AM

20Eyes
In reality what actually happens is…
Someone reports a breach of an ASBO to the Police. The response Police (quite wrongly in my opinion) as soon as they learn it is a ASBO breach pass it on to the Neighbourhood Policing Team, which is usually 1Beat Manager (a Police Officer) and a couple of PCSO’s. As the Police Officer is the only one who can follow this up, it then left to him/her to do all the work (along with all his/her other Neighbourhood Policing Duties and when he/she is not being pulled off to cover other duties which is also a regular occurrence. (I’m sure Muggins can support me in this)

When someone breaks an ASBO it becomes a criminal matter, so the person reporting the breach of the ASBO has to be prepared to
A) Make a Statement (hearsay statements cannot be made in a criminal matter)
B) Go into court if necessary.
Quite understandably, as these little angels didn’t get the ASBO in the first place for their sense of neighbourhood responsibility or kindness, very few are prepared to put their heads above the parapet for fear of reprisals. (And don’t forget before they go into court they get a copy of the statement with the witnesses name and address)


Oh, I'm sure a lot of people make a lot of pointless noise which keeps people in jobs, makes others think something's being done and costs us all a lot of wasted money... but I'll repeat it again:

Quote
Just 2 per cent of ASBO breaches are currently punished by a prison sentence

[url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs[/url] ([url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs[/url])


98% of the time an ASBO is broken, nothing of any genuine consequence happens to the indivdiual who breaks it. It's very obvious from the year-on-year rise in the percentage of people that break their ASBOs that they have been taught that breaking them makes absolutely no difference to them personally.

With regard to rehousing the family, this is not quite true. The council do have to temporarily house the family if they have been evicted but, subject to an appeal process, the tenant who’s been evicted because of the behaviour of their children can be deemed to have made themselves homeless and does not have to be rehoused by the council.


Again, I know what the theory is. In reality, these people ARE rehoused - maybe by a different Council, but they are rehoused. If they have children under 16 living in the household it's a foregone conclusion, and they know it.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 11, 2010, 09:46:53 AM
There will always be one or two that will go on to a life of crime unfortunately.   

'One or two'?!?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Mart on December 11, 2010, 11:28:47 AM
I mean, he's literally a miracle worker... within mere days of meeting him, people who have had life-long battles with serious drug addictions suddenly find themselves cured of those addictions and free from the curse of their demons.

Yeah,Pierrepoint had that gift.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Tea Boy on December 11, 2010, 05:28:40 PM
I always thought that when a magistrate passes judgement they never do it alone. Aren't there three of them? In the case of this young lad and the judgement, without being privy to the full facts as seen by the three magistrates, no one really knows the full circumstances of the case. Isn't it a bit too much to attack a single magistrate over this decision?

I was also wondering if this might be a case of the young lad glorying in the ASBO? If he's the sort who will revel in this ASBO then by naming him you aren't helping the situation. He wears it as a badge of honor and carries on. Better to keep him unknown, under watch by PC Plod and take the appropriate action if he breaks the terms of the ASBO

But then, the way Ken Clarke is going he may never need to worry as the Tories will never carry out the ultimate threat of imprisonment. Just what is the point of even applying an ASBO if the ultimte deterent allowable by law is ignored.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Ringer on December 11, 2010, 05:50:34 PM
Ken Clark is being very frank about what it means letting people out early, I wonder if the Libdem and Conservative occupiers of No10 are as impressed with Ken as Thatcher was? It is rumoured they rowed quite a bit :santa_lipsrsealed:
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 08:28:42 AM
In the case of this young lad and the judgement, without being privy to the full facts as seen by the three magistrates, no one really knows the full circumstances of the case. Isn't it a bit too much to attack a single magistrate over this decision?

If the courts wish to hide behind the snidey, 'You peasants may not comment on our decision as only we know the full facts' then I'm afraid the only way to continue the facade with any credibility is to allow us access to the full facts so that we may assess their decision in a way they'd find acceptable. But, of course, they'll never do that.

It would be like saying to your employer, 'Yes, that's right, you've noticed I'm not doing my job properly but there is very good reason for that which you are not aware of'

Employer: 'OK, so, what is that reason?'

'I'm not telling you because you're not allowed to know'

But then, the way Ken Clarke is going he may never need to worry as the Tories will never carry out the ultimate threat of imprisonment. Just what is the point of even applying an ASBO if the ultimte deterent allowable by law is ignored.

It always has been ignored. I would bet my last penny that the 2% of ASBO recipients that did finally end up in prison due to breaches (a) breached their ASBO(s) more than 5 times and (b) committed offences as part of the breach that attracted mandatory custodial sentences in any case.

ASBOs are pointless, they don't work. How can anyone claim that any system to prevent people doing something works when 70% of the people involved simply ignore it, breach the contract and continue doing what they were doing?

Ken Clarke's approach to Law & Order will be an abject failure. It would be lovely to think that criminals will simply stop committing crime because we ask the nicely, but it just doesn't work. It's well established that there is a relatively small, hardcore of serious repeat offenders in this country. Every police force in ever town knows who commits 90% of crime. All we need to do is keep these people off the streets, yet nobody has the political will to do so. It's as frightening as it is bewildering.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 12, 2010, 10:13:30 AM
ASBO'S DO WORK and saying anything else based on anecdotal information is dangerous stuff.

Try living with it for three years. 

Trouble is that the kids that got into to anti social behaviour were usually too young to go to prison.  What they did,  based on one action at a time was hardly a prisonable offence, it's the accumulative effect and harrassment that was soul destroying. Their actions were usually the sort of thing you would have gone and knocked their door and asked their parents to sort out. It was not looked on as anything of importance by the powers that be, it went on for so long that it became entrenched in some youth culture.  Because of their age and petty offences there were no laws to deal with it.

About ten years ago it became a big election issue and laws were brought it and teams to deal with it and PCSO's so that it wouldn't take up the time of the real police.  It's not out of youth culture yet, but it is certainly improving.  AND not all youth went that way, but they all sort of get lumped together.

It had knock on effects, because they were untouchable, no one would help volunteer to run youth clubs, youth were not welcome were they were before and this just spiralled down. 

Something had to be done to stop the cycle of bad behaviour being handed down, father to brother to son and even the girls had started to join in.  People had to be given rights to live in peace.  It's taken a long time to get the system right, after all nothing like it had been tried before, perhpas that system isn;t right yet. It's a good deal more than we had before.

It's not ok to make sweeping statements to say something's not working when you have no experience of the problem or any other answers.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 10:34:35 AM
ASBO'S DO WORK and saying anything else based on anecdotal information is dangerous stuff.

No, it's based on the official statistics that show 70% of them are summarily ignored, without consequence, by those who receive them.

Those are the national facts. What happens outside your house is anecdotal and, by the sounds of it, highly unrepresentative.

It is perfectly OK to say something doesn't work when it only works 3 out of 10 times.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 10:43:11 AM
By the way, if you want a direct example of ASBOs not working, may I suggest you walk up and down Victoria Road on a late afternoon/early evening. Ian David Pounds - the man in this press release - is frequently found begging, demanding cigarettes and trying to sell open/used bottles of spirits. I doubt they're all relatives or personal friends (mainly because I'm certainly not and he's tried begging/selling stuff to me on several occasions):

(http://www.challengeswindon.org.uk/ianpounds0912.jpg)

http://www.challengeswindon.org.uk/latestnews/latestnewsheader/news/newsitemdisplayv2.htm?itemid=137547 (http://www.challengeswindon.org.uk/latestnews/latestnewsheader/news/newsitemdisplayv2.htm?itemid=137547)

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 12, 2010, 10:45:58 AM
20eyes the first thing I must ask is how much personal experience you have of real Anti Social Behaviour?

Muggins is right ASBO’s do work but in as they work to varying degrees, the success, or not, is easily manipulated for the sensationalism that the press and other like to attach.

Later I will post a real life experience of where an ASBO was said to have failed but to the people who were the victims it was very much a success.

By the way, if you want a direct example of ASBOs not working, may I suggest you walk up and down Victoria Road on a late afternoon/early evening. Ian David Pounds - the man in this press release - is frequently found begging, demanding cigarettes and trying to sell open/used bottles of spirits. I doubt they're all relatives or personal friends (mainly because I'm certainly not and he's tried begging/selling stuff to me on several occasions):

Have you reported this to the Police and made a complaint statement?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 11:03:26 AM
20eyes the first thing I must ask is how much personal experience you have of real Anti Social Behaviour?

I suspect that by 'real' you actually mean, things that happen to you and people you know but not to me?

I've lived in the heart of Old Town for 19 years - trust me, I've personally experienced real ASB. Or maybe
you feel that having a breeze block thrown through your kitchen window and two people climbing in to then pick
up your kitchen knife and demand money from you is just kids being kids?

Pint glasses and bottles thrown at your door and windows every Friday/Saturday night? People vomiting and urinating on your door, your walls and your fences? People running over your car? People vandalising your property? Criminal damage on a weekly basis?

Muggins is right ASBO’s do work but in as they work to varying degrees, the success, or not, is easily manipulated for the sensationalism that the press and other like to attach.

They do not work in 70% of cases. That, to me, cannot be considered a success.

Later I will post a real life experience of where an ASBO was said to have failed but to the people who were the victims it was very much a success.

As above, they can work - maybe in as many of 3 out of 10 cases - but that's not really enough to claim the scheme 'works'. Would you buy a car that the manufacturer told you would only start on 3 out of 10 occasions?

Have you reported this to the Police and made a complaint statement?

Haha. I'm presuming that was a joke? After having lived in Old Town for the amount of time I have, you tend to get a little bored of calling the police and nothing ever coming of it. It's one reason why the officially claimed rate for ABS has gone down in the Old Town area - nobody I know that live here tends to bother reporting it anymore.

As a personal example, the first three times I had my car wing-mirror smashed off overnight I reported it. The only thing that resulted was a police issued Crime Reference Number. The excess on my car insurance policy is £250. The cost of replacing the wing mirror is £280, therefore I don't make an insurance claim and so I don't need a CRN. The last two times I've had my wing-mirror smashed off overnight I've simply booked in to the dealer to have it replaced - why bother phoning the police when even they admit there's nothing they can do and there's no point them coming out to the crime scene?

I guess a lot of my neighbours are fed up shelling out to have their wing-mirrors replaced properly, judging by the sheer amount of cars that have their mirrors affixed by Duct Tape. The irony of all this is that the people who tend to claim that ASBOs 'work' are often the first to say, 'What do you expect, living in a town area?' or the absolute classic, 'Why don't you move then?'. Two phrases that highlight just how badly ASBOs have actually failed.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Des Morgan on December 12, 2010, 11:13:06 AM
Quote
ASBO’s do work but in as they work to varying degrees, the success, or not, is easily manipulated for the sensationalism that the press and other like to attach.

And in that phrase 'they work to varying degrees' is the whole issue encapsulated.

My friend Mellon has taught me that anecdotal evidence is very interesting but it's not the same as real facts in the form of hard data. The data in terms of ASBOs as produced by the  Government and others suggests that ASBOs are not working as well as they should and that the public is not persuaded the ASBO is an effective tool in the fight against anti social behaviour offenders.

The primary issue is one of enforcement and it follows that if there are lots of people in receipt of an ASBO you need lots of support from agencies to be able to determine whether or not the offender is fulfilling their conditions.

In the immediate aftermath of the issuing of an order I suspect the positive effects are clear and obvious, but one week or one month on I'm not so sure - so Bogomill, I am confident you will be able to present a very honest account of where an ASBO achieved its given objectives, and I am sure someone else will be able to do the exact opposite (confirming your initial point)

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 12, 2010, 11:21:09 AM
Have you reported this to the Police and made a complaint statement?

Haha. I'm presuming that was a joke? After having lived in Old Town for the amount of time I have, you tend to get a little bored of calling the police and nothing ever coming of it. It's one reason why the officially claimed rate for ABS has gone down in the Old Town area - nobody I know that live here tends to bother reporting it anymore.

Not a joke… if you know this person is breaching an ASBO and doing nothing about it then it’s hardly surprising that this ASBO is failing.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 11:23:13 AM
Not a joke… if you know this person is breaching an ASBO and doing nothing about it then it’s hardly surprising that this ASBO is failing.

I know, interesting, isn't it? Maybe his ASBO is considered one of those 3 in 10 that's officially 'worked'... some food for thought.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 12, 2010, 11:35:59 AM
20 Eyes
You MUST report these breaches, and yes I know its very easy to get disheartened and disillusioned by the lack of action by the Police on these matters. IF you want a better environment to live in then FIGHT for it. I agree it’s not acceptable for people to say “why don’t you move” or “what do you expect living in town” EVERYONE has the right to the quiet enjoyment of their home but sometimes you have to fight to maintain that right.

What are your local councillors doing to help you and your neighbours with this problem? What ward do you live in?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 11:39:28 AM
Our society hasn't got the collective will for a better society, that's why it's pointless reporting these things.

The man won't end up in prison - which is where he should be - so what's the point? It's all just more wasted resources, time, effort and money.

Our local judges refuse to send even violent, convicted, repeat offenders to prison, so what hope a guy that breaks his ASBO by trying to sell a half-drunken bottle of Whiskey?

It was readily apparent even before Ken Clarke was put in charge, but it's even more obvious now that the criminals have won; we're not allowed to do anything about them, the police can't/don't do anything about them and the judges refuse to sentence them appropriately (or even according to their own Sentencing Guidelines much of the time).
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 12, 2010, 12:43:10 PM
This is a real life experience of what happened when an ASBO was granted on a youth, who along with a group of others was causing a great deal of problems on an estate in Swindon. Although some in the final analysis claimed that the ASBO had been a failure due to many breaches, what must also be judged is not whether the ASBO stops the behaviour of an individual (or whether it returns them forever more to a life on the straight and narrow) but whether those whom have been the victims of the Anti Social Behaviour feel that the ASBO has had such an impact as to have improved their quality of life.

Back in early 2000 a group of youths, led primarily by a youth whom I will refer to as Mali, were terrorising daily local residents who lived in and around the local shops. Their antics, which to some might have appeared to be merely high spirits, were seriously impacting on the quality of life of local residents to the point that many were on the verge having mental health problems due to the relentless levels of stress that it was causing. Whilst the main issue was the way in which the group led by Mali hung and misbehaved around the local shops making people feel very intimidated, other examples of their “high spirited” antics included:
Throwing things at passers by from the roof of the homes above the shops.
Graffiti and other damage on garage doors and vehicles.
Damage to the roof gardens and plants of these same residents.
Threatening and abusing behaviour to local residents, often aimed a females in the company of males to provoke a reaction.
Individual incidents that I am personally aware of included throwing a water balloon through the window of a bus at the driver whilst he was driving with passengers on board, placing a concrete block (conveniently left by the council who had been installing traffic calming build outs) in the road for vehicles to hit and trapping people inside the local Chip shop by pulling down the security shutters whilst people were inside (that also being the only exit from the shop) and the owner had to all the Police so they could get out.

Life had become so gruesome for residents that many sought to move, wouldn’t have friends or family around because of the constant problems and  due to stress even started to have problems at work because of the worry of what they would find when they got home. When home they were unable to rest due to a constant state of alertness that victims of ASB get into. Watching TV you always have an ear open to the noises outside, as you lie in bed unable to sleep as each sound from outside realerts your body to potentially what might be going on.

Eventually, and after a very long process, an ASBO was granted and widely publicised on Mali, including the restrictions on where he was allowed to go and when and who he was allowed to associate with etc.

Like most youngster his age he of course didn’t like the restrictions placed on him by the ASBO and, as fully expected, breached it’s conditions on quite a few occasions. Each time it was reported he and his family were dragged down the police station, kept hanging around before being interviewed etc. To my knowledge all of the breaches were in relation to where e should not have been as opposed to what he was doing. He actual behaviour had been very much curtailed and, with the group being broken up (the other group members wound their heads in so much it was surprising they could see above their shirt collars), ASB in the area dropped dramatically, peoples lives improved incredibly and although there were still instances of ASB in the area, nothing like the living hell that they had been suffering for years.

Mali did his ASBO and there was publicity about his having turned his life around, although many suspected that this was a stunt to get the ASBO conditions removed earlier. Unfortunately the ASBO had not set him on the straight and narrow road of life as later he was convicted of a violent assault on another youth for which Mali received a custodial sentence.

In analysis people will say that due to the breaches of the ASBO and his later assault, the ASBO system failed, and in the black and white yes or no terms of success or failure maybe the ASBO could been seen as failing. However IMHO there are two important aspects to an ASBO.
The change (or at least the desistence) of the unwelcomed behaviour of the person causing ASB but MORE IMPORTANTLY the protection of  residents who only want to have a peaceable existence.

In the case of Mali, whilst the behaviour was not completely curtailed what I consider the primary objective, the protection of others, was achieved.

Obviously other will have their own views, but one question I would ask about the data being published by varying departments on the success or not of ASBO’s. Do these figures include a success rating from local residents or just the raw YES or NO data based on the simple question  “List the number of ASBO breaches”
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Bogomil on December 12, 2010, 12:45:20 PM
20Eyes
you quoted the following article regarding the fact that only 2% of those who breached their ASBO went to prison

Quote
Just 2 per cent of ASBO breaches are currently punished by a prison sentence
[url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs[/url] ([url]http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs[/url])


The 2% figure for ASBO breaches sent to prison does not reflect how many had other sentence passed on them for breaching their ASBO, including fines, community orders, probation, curfew and tagging orders.
You must remember that prison for breaching an ASBO must be for a serious breach and not just something minor like being somewhere that you are banned from being (even if they are behaving themselves)

I would also like to point out the following from the same article

Quote
A Ministry of Justice spokeswoman said: "The fact that each order lasts a minimum of two years, they are designed to stop a pattern of behaviour that in some cases had meant years of misery day in and day out for victims.
"One, two or even three breaches over the lifetime of the order is not a sign of failure, not when that order is preventing a daily recurrence of serious abuse."


Without wanting you to feel that I am having a pop at your personally, I am honestly not, it is very simple to read headlines or quotes when you are trying to substantiate something without looking at the wider picture or whole article. I know I am also guilty of that at times so please do not see this as a personal point.

But again I will say, you must report the breaches of the ASBO, don’t give up the fight, take heart from someone locally (and a TS’er) that didn’t and won through in the end.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6869357.ece (http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6869357.ece)
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 02:01:59 PM
The 2% figure for ASBO breaches sent to prison does not reflect how many had other sentence passed on them for breaching their ASBO, including fines, community orders, probation, curfew and tagging orders.

I'm sorry, but those 'sentences' are about as meaningless non-punishments as the original ASBO itself. How many community orders are ever fully completed? How many curfew's are genuinely adhered to? It's all just one non-punishment after another and it actively teaches (maybe even encourages) the idea that Anti-Social Behaviour is actually fairly acceptable.

You must remember that prison for breaching an ASBO must be for a serious breach and not just something minor like being somewhere that you are banned from being (even if they are behaving themselves)

Then why would anyone not breach their ASBO if the end result is basically just another ASBO. It reminds me of when people who are banned from driving are caught driving and are given a sentence of... being banned from driving. It's farcical and it's why criminals laugh at the system and laugh at us.

As for your instance of 'Mali' - I'd view that as an abject failure of the system and the failure of those we contract with to protect us from criminals to do just that. As it turns out, if they'd simply put him in prison he'd not have been able to continue ruining people's lives OR violently assault somebody (and that's just the one we know about). How anyone can claim that an ASBO has worked when the person living under it then gets sent to prison for assault is beyond me. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to actually get sent to prison these days?

Using your logic, if an ASBO individual simply moves away from an area and the residents there enjoy a more peaceful lifestyle then the ASBO has 'worked'. I can't agree with that kind of logic I'm afraid.

As the case of Mali very clearly illustrates, the only way to guarantee the protection of the public is for the public to accept that some people must be put behind bars. It is an utter nonsense and myth to claim that prison doesn't work. It does, because it protects the public and public protection must always be more of a priority than fawning all over the criminal and pretending they can somehow be 'rehabilitated'.

Given the laughably high repeat offending rate by those who've passed through our illustrious rehabilitation system, it's blindingly factually obvious that it only 'works' for a minority. Although, even that's questionable, given that the figures for those who do not reoffend include released convicts who been hospitalised, died, have moved abroad or returned home once released (and are therefore physically unable to reoffend here).
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 12, 2010, 05:16:00 PM
 "It is an utter nonsense and myth to claim that prison doesn't work."

There are plenty who believe that prison doesn't work, if that is utter nonsense, so is saying that ASBO's don't either, that they don;t work is also a myth.


Having two guys break in and threaten and do damage and steal is not just  'ASB' it's break in - stealing and criminal damage.  It is a criminal not civil thing.

If you are not reporting ASB or crimal activity you are part of the problem not part of the solution.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 12, 2010, 05:50:56 PM
There are plenty who believe that prison doesn't work, if that is utter nonsense, so is saying that ASBO's don't either, that they don;t work is also a myth.

Well, no, not really, because we use facts to prove that things don't, or do, work.

100% of people in prison cannot commit further crimes against the public - therefore, in terms of protecting the public from crimes caused by people who have already been convicted of crimes, it works. People can say it doesn't, they're also free to think it doesn't, but the facts prove that it does.

70% of ASBOs are breached, plenty of them are breached more than 5 times. So, in terms of a contract that's agreed whereby the person concerned will not behave in a certain way, they are a failure for the most part.

Having two guys break in and threaten and do damage and steal is not just  'ASB' it's break in - stealing and criminal damage.  It is a criminal not civil thing.

Fair point. What do you consider pint glasses and bottles thrown at your door and windows every Friday/Saturday night? People vomiting and urinating on your door, your walls and your fences? People running over your car? People vandalising your property? Criminal damage on a weekly basis?

If you are not reporting ASB or crimal activity you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Not when the reports result in nothing ever happening you're not.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Tea Boy on December 12, 2010, 07:55:52 PM
There are plenty who believe that prison doesn't work, if that is utter nonsense, so is saying that ASBO's don't either, that they don;t work is also a myth.

Well, no, not really, because we use facts to prove that things don't, or do, work.

100% of people in prison cannot commit further crimes against the public - therefore, in terms of protecting the public from crimes caused by people who have already been convicted of crimes, it works. People can say it doesn't, they're also free to think it doesn't, but the facts prove that it does.

70% of ASBOs are breached, plenty of them are breached more than 5 times. So, in terms of a contract that's agreed whereby the person concerned will not behave in a certain way, they are a failure for the most part.

Having two guys break in and threaten and do damage and steal is not just  'ASB' it's break in - stealing and criminal damage.  It is a criminal not civil thing.

Fair point. What do you consider pint glasses and bottles thrown at your door and windows every Friday/Saturday night? People vomiting and urinating on your door, your walls and your fences? People running over your car? People vandalising your property? Criminal damage on a weekly basis?

If you are not reporting ASB or crimal activity you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Not when the reports result in nothing ever happening you're not.

I must say it's never been like that for me, I have in the past lived just off of Eastcott Hill, the occasional broken glass, some singing, perhaps but not much else. I lived in Penhill, perhaps some people's nightmare idea of ASB hell, just around the corner from the valley for 4 years, I got more hassle from the psycho girlfriend than from ASB. Sure kids hung around getting stoned and drunk, some hi-jinks etc. Even with her indoors shouting at me, it sounds like i got less hassle than you do living in old town.

You haven't upset anyone in your area have you? Sounds really bad, makes Penhill sound like a sleepy suburb in comparison.

I feel sorry for you, sounds awful, but it seems to me, that you don't want  to help yourself. Perhaps it's a matter of policing priorities and if it's not appearing on Plod's radar as an issue then its not taking that priority it should.

Bogomil is right bend the local councillor's ear and get reporting, otherwise you are not part of the solution. by not reporting the issue it is in fact doing the opposite to what you actually need , and making the statistics show a decrease in ASB. 
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Mart on December 12, 2010, 08:56:02 PM
"One, two or even three breaches over the lifetime of the order is not a sign of failure

Bit of a downer if you are the recipient of the fruits of a breach I should think.

What I struggle to come to grips with is how the feckless little sods can apparently build up a decent back catalogue of amateur crime before they get an ASBO and go professional as it were. I do wonder if the people who suffered from the attentions of the pre ASBO little angels are lesser victims that those who get a proper seeing to from an ASBO pro?

Then there's the argument that an ASBO is a 'good thing' for all concerned because it all very pink and fuzzy and sometimes turns out smashing, however the failure rate is one reservation I have

Of the 16,895 ASBOs issued, 9,247 (55 percent) were breached at
least once (tables 7 and table 11); with 6,804 (40 percent) breached
more than once (table 9)


Following on from that every failure has a victim as well as a perpetrator, seems to me that is a very high rate of failure with a very high cost and I for one lack the moral fortitude or sense of forgiveness to be comfortable paying that price. Statistically speaking I wouldn't travel on that airline.

Every failure hurts and it should not have to be tolerated.

The ASBO could be a valid tool in a more civilised society than ours generally appears to presently be. I think we need orange overalls and ditches for a year or two, then, maybe it'll be time for another go.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Chav on December 12, 2010, 11:34:32 PM
20Eyes

If you don't make a stand and report any ASB going on, then nothing will be done !
I found that the best way for me to deal with ASB was to email the local Cllrs, the Neighbourhood Policing Team (NPT's), housing officers, those above the housing officers, the local MP and anyone else who I thought that was relevant at the time !

I emailed everytime incidents happened, (A paper trail is always good !)
I attended meetings in my community and bought it up - the gang of ASBO'ees hated me, and I had threats of having my car window screen being put through etc etc !
I even caught one of the youths with the brick ready in his hand and shouted out and the gang scarpered .
I have been called all sorts of names from a distance such as 'slut, whore, slag, nark etc' , but it bothers me none. I still stood my ground and now it has paid off  :santa_afro:

I have peace and quiet since ASBO's were served on the individuals causing trouble.
My complaints were taken seriously and were just the tip of the iceburge

I still have my paper trail and if things start to slip, I will without a doubt make a noise !

So 20 Eyes, use what ever means you have to be heard, because if you do nothing, then expect nothing!  :santa_afro:
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 08:44:02 AM
Ah, dear old Ian Pounds. Just as I said above, he breaks his ASBO on a regular basis. And what happens when he's caught for doing it? A night in the cells - like he'd care, just means a nicer breakfast than he'd otherwise have had.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/)

Jesus, these ASBOs really are a complete and utter waste of time.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: bobwright on December 18, 2010, 09:14:41 AM
20Eyes - Funny how you are happy to use Ian's name but not your own?

The ASBO is not a panacea for all things however if used well it can affect some and make a difference in peoples lives. Selecting individual cases to discredit the ASBO will not reduce its value if used well with certain people. This was recognised from the beginning and that is why it also included a fast tracking element if it failed to make a difference.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 09:22:27 AM
20Eyes - Funny how you are happy to use Ian's name but not your own?

'Ian', eh? Do you know him by any chance?

I'm quite sure that the Evening Advertiser would print my name where I to appear in court. However, on an internet forum it's not yet law that people must use the name on their birth certificate.

The ASBO is not a panacea for all things however if used well it can affect some and make a difference in peoples lives. Selecting individual cases to discredit the ASBO will not reduce its value if used well with certain people. This was recognised from the beginning and that is why it also included a fast tracking element if it failed to make a difference.

ASBOs are a waste of time. 70% are breached. They are a pointless and proven FAILURE. Why people insist on pretending they're of any use, when the established evidence shows otherwise, is beyond me.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 09:24:13 AM
20Eyes - Funny how you are happy to use Ian's name but not your own?

Question: do you think Ian Pounds' latest appearance in court for breaching his ASBO will in any way influence him not to breach his ASBO in the future?

Seriously, I'm very interested in your response, it should be very illuminating.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: bobwright on December 18, 2010, 10:13:38 AM
Not as illuminating as why you hide behind a pseudonym?

No one changes until they are ready to change. Reflection and acceptance of the need to change is one way of moving things forward. You naming someone on a thread is not likely to make the difference required however good luck with that approach.

If you are saying that an ASBO is not the right tool to continue to use once it has failed to make a difference I will support your thinking.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 10:21:36 AM
Not as illuminating as why you hide behind a pseudonym?

Nice to see you answer the questions put.

By the way, you do realise that it's still commonly accepted good practice NOT to use your real name on publically accessible Internet sites?

You also seem oblivious to the quite obvious fact that I could have registered as Robert Wright, if I'd wanted to, and you'd equally have no idea whatsoever whether that was my real name or not.

No one changes until they are ready to change. Reflection and acceptance of the need to change is one way of moving things forward. You naming someone on a thread is not likely to make the difference required however good luck with that approach.

How many times do you think Ian Pounds should be allowed to breach his ASBO before we 'reflect and accept' that he's never going to adhere to it?

If you are saying that an ASBO is not the right tool to continue to use once it has failed to make a difference I will support your thinking.

It's clearly failed with Ian Pounds. I hope you agree that a custodial sentence is really the only option for such a person. As I said above, he could be arrested virtually every day on exactly the same charges/breaches. In fact, he asked a friend of mine to give him a cigarette just outside The Vic just last week.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Ringer on December 18, 2010, 12:24:56 PM
The idea of policing and ASBOs is an aspect of the more general concept of social control. Social control is itself a complex and a much debated notion policing is not only about a group of people wearing black uniforms and day glow jackets? Some parts of the world  do not have police patrolling within their midst, yet order is kept by social control. What society has done is to take its eye of its own social control and hand it over to the "police fetishists" on the basis of an ideological assumption that the police are a functional prerequisite of social order and believe that without a police force chaos would ensue. For example policing in Wiltshire is only just over 170 years old what was there before?

ASBOs are part of contemporay social control it is a mechanism to contribute to social order. I worry sometimes that ASBOs are Marxist versions of critical criminology inter alia a simple reversal of moral blame by making social control agents ‘fall-guys’  of a wider structure of power and privilege.

It appears that this thread is lurching from one side of that argument  to the other. Section 5 of the public order act is very effective at dealing with public order issues, and county court injunctions are also effective, what ASBOs did was combine the two principles along with the  idea not to criminalize young people, the criminal part kicks in when it is breached. Using Dazzer type technology to emit sounds that cause pain to young people to keep them away from shops was debated as breaching their human rights. However they should have tried mood music but that is for another thread someday!

Libertarians see social control as inextricably intertwining the maintenance of universally benefi cial order and social dominance and oppression: ‘parking tickets’ and ‘class repression’. Policing today is an omnibus of agencies, individuals, organisations and private business. That is why the issue of ASBOs as Bob refers to in his panacea comment is not 100% effective. 

Punishment has to be proportionate and rehabilatative there are many people in society who breach the rules and are named in the local and national papers.

ASBOs are breached by residivist behaviour no different to that of people who  get more than x number of points on their licence and are banned from driving. Yet these people can be leaders of our community. If a politician is banned from driving for points accumulated on their licence does that make them any less capable of doing their job? It only becomes a criminal matter if they then drive while disqualified.

What of the guardians of society the police should the names of all officers with criminal convictions be published?  (This is just one of many links on the internet). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/5317894.stm (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/5317894.stm)

Naming people may not modify their behaviour because the social control of self policing  within themselves, their families, friends, peers and community has either broken or shifted? Stigmatizing people was a method of self policing used by communities for example years ago stigmatizing single mothers was wrong stigmatizing offenders appears to have been  Ok. today stigmatizing anyone is viewed as a no no. Society is amorphous and so is its laws and punishments the birch, hanging, stocks, pillory and transportation are no longer used and soon ASBOs will be joining  that group.

Arresting someone every day because of their ASB and incarcerating them for a long period of time is costly and may not reslove the matter. What next transport them to Rockall? Or Give them drugs that render them into an automotive state like in clockwork orange? what I want to know is, if we had used just 0.1% of the tax payers money to deal with the bank bailouts would it have gone along way to dealing with ASB? 

As for using a name other than your given name is ok everyone is entitled to their privacy. People who breach  the law are named why is  that? It it  because everyone needs to  be informed so that they may protect themselves? Or do we still  think that the press are responsible for social control by naming and shaming? Maybe we are all responsible for the social control in our community and not only commentators on it?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 01:40:04 PM
I think much of what you've written makes a lot of sense.

In the case of an ASBO for somebody like Ian Pounds, it's important that as many people as possible know his name and have seen his photograph. In nobody knows who/what he is, they won't ever think to report him when he begs, harrasses and intimidates them.

One of the problems with our society is the way certain sections of it have reached a point where they believe that criminals are 'victims' and appear to take on some level of personal guilt about why criminality exists. This manifests itself in the notion that proper punishment shouldn't be used and by all but defending criminals. Often, the more heinous the crime, the quicker some people are to want to show how understanding they are about the criminal concerned.

It's all a bit perverse, really. It never ceases to amaze me how those who appear unconcerned with public safety and protection scrabble to call their approach 'enlightened'. It seems to come from the same school of 'enlightenment' that leads to the needless death of 12 year old girls:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12011868 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12011868)
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Ringer on December 18, 2010, 01:45:35 PM
Two senior immigration judges rejected a final appeal by the UK Border Agency to have him deported, saying it would infringe his human rights. Senior judges made the decision based on the law perhaps the law should be changed? However in this case  maybe we should all await the outcome of the appeal against the decision? Then see if Cameron will do something with his anger about the law if it is amazes more than it surprises?

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 02:02:38 PM
Two senior immigration judges rejected a final appeal by the UK Border Agency to have him deported, saying it would infringe his human rights. Senior judges made the decision based on the law perhaps the law should be changed?

Given that I doubt you'd be able to find more than handful of people in the entire country (Shami Chakrabarti excluded) who believe it's right and proper that this man remains in the country, yes, you would think that somebody might think about correcting a law that is so obviously poorly drawn up.

However in this case  maybe we should all await the outcome of the appeal against the decision? Then see if Cameron will do something with his anger about the law if it is amazes more than it surprises?

Cameron will claim he can't influence the judges, the judges will claim that the government makes the law etc. etc. It's the same old circle-jerk every time the law is shown to be desperately lacking.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: bobwright on December 18, 2010, 02:53:23 PM

I have learnt in a very short time that it does not matter what I want the world to be like it matters more what difference can I make? Through good fortune and good sense many of us are able to avoid and overcome the difficulties that life presents. I do not think it helps to turn this fortune on others who find life much more difficult.

In spite of many describing the supportive actions of the State and Charities as a ‘Nanny State’ there is still a glaring hole in the social fabric. We still put the emphasis on response rather than prevention. What is not in place is an organisation with expertise to help those at the beginning of personal problems. Inevitably the likes of the CAB, SWADS and the Samaritans respond to the affects and not the symptoms or cause. Ringer has outlined the benefits of Civil Society so how do we get there, by naming and shaming??

By the way bobwright is a pseudonym for Bob Wright

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 03:31:42 PM
How do you feel about the numerous people that Ian Pounds is allowed to beg from, harrass and intimidate on an almost daily basis, Bob?

You've not mentioned anything about them, or that side of the problem. You're just upset that Mr Pounds has had his name and photograph printed. Why am I not surprised?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: bobwright on December 18, 2010, 04:59:35 PM
I have agreed an ASBO is not the suitable way to help in this case and may not be suitable for others. I feel that numerous people should not be bothered and he needs help. I believe an intervention and separation from a destructive lifestyle will help him and society. I just can not see how you using his photograph and name on Talkswindon will help.

If it helps you I am not upset just curious why someone who appears to be intelligent in many ways seems to have a blind spot in this matter. Perhaps you missed Ringers point about this not just being a control issue, something has to change. Do you really think shame will be an effective tool in this case? Taking someone away from an environment to help change can be an effective method however if the root cause has not changed there is still a good chance of the return of old behaviours.

All my training indicates that an individual must want to change and have the intention to change. Quite often support is required to help the change to become effective. You are quite right people should not have to put up with the behaviour however we can help both the individual and society if an effective option is used.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 05:17:40 PM
I just can not see how you using his photograph and name on Talkswindon will help.


Admittedly, I don't know what Talk Swindon's site visitor statistics are - so it may be of little use posting up his name and photo if not many people frequent the site. However, his name and photo have been published several times on the Adver website and the Council's website, so it's hardly as if it's a secret or something. If Mr Pounds doesn't like his name and photo being published online, maybe he should consider not breaking the law/his ASBO conditions in future.

As I've said before, if people do not know what this man looks like, how would they ever be able to report him for his ASBO breaches when he approaches them to beg, harrass or intimidate them - as he does on a regular basis.

Seriously, how many more chances does this individual, who's presumably never done a day's work in his life,  deserve? How much time, effort and money has been thoroughly wasted on trying to pretend he'll ever be 'rehabilitated'? How many people's lives have been interrupted and degraded by this man, simply because the deluded authorities refuse to put him in prison (despite him being a serial offender)?

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1341985.Man_jailed_for_attack_on_OAP/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1341985.Man_jailed_for_attack_on_OAP/)

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/archive/2005/08/01/Wiltshire+Archive/7242830.Burglar_jailed_for_theft_from_friend/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/archive/2005/08/01/Wiltshire+Archive/7242830.Burglar_jailed_for_theft_from_friend/)

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/4464921.Asbo_for_man_who_hawked_stolen_goods/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/4464921.Asbo_for_man_who_hawked_stolen_goods/)

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/4801558.Asbos_given_to_offenders/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/4801558.Asbos_given_to_offenders/)

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/)
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on December 18, 2010, 05:39:53 PM
"Tony Nowogrodski, defending, said Pounds had a complicated background, which included being diagnosed with schizophrenia at the age of 16. "

This and the fact he was asking for £1 for a cup of coffee, may be a clue as to why is not being severly dealt with.

The man is sick.

Should bring back the funny farms, aye 20Eyes?

When was this Care in the Community started?

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 05:52:21 PM
Defence laywers will pull out all the usual mitigating factors until they're blue in the face. You can't just explain all of this man's crimes away by blithely saying, 'Oh well, he's sick'.

On the one hand we are forever being told that we must accept that mentally ill people are of no greater threat to law breaking than anyone else, but then as soon as someone breaks the law their defence lawyer plays the trump card of, 'Ah ha, but they're mentally ill' and we all have to just shrug and accept it? The mitigating factor is that the mental illness is the root cause of the criminality (can't have the individual ever take responsibility) and yet we're told that mental illness doesn't cause criminality - talk about cake and eating it.

A breach of an ASBO is a breach of an ASBO. The conditions of his ASBO are very clear and he broke them - just because you think it's trivial doesn't mean the person he was begging from thinks it's unimportant.

I have met this individual on the street and have been approached by him several times, as have my friends. I'm a fairly large, adult male and he comes across as unpredictable, violent and intimidating to me. I have seen him approach young girls on their way into Longs Bar during the summer months - it's not pleasant. Indeed, a friend and I were moved to 'politely' ask him to 'move along' on one occasion as he was clearly causing two girls some distress due to the way he was speaking to them and approaching them.

The thing is, he'll annoy the wrong person one day and will end up getting hurt. Surely it'd be better for all concerned if the magistrates/judges jailed him (again). His 'rehabilitation' under a community based sentence quite clearly isn't working.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 05:56:12 PM
When was this Care in the Community started?

I forgot to respond to this... yes, it's a huge problem, is an absolutely shameful Act and one of the worst pieces of legislation the Tories have ever introduced.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Steve Wakefield on December 18, 2010, 06:08:22 PM
From this link it said
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/)

"it is not a very straightforward history,” he said.

“Over the course of the last few years, he has been unwell with schizophrenia.

“In the main, his offending has always been linked with the town centre and that was the focus of the Asbo.”

Clearly prison is not working to use Ken Clark's view and he accepts that more people will be on the streets who would have been in prison. Ill people need help and a stabilty brought into their  live. Years ago I was involved in the reprovision of Mental Hospitals and people had been kept in there drugged into a stupor for decades of their lives. If people have a stability in their lives and take medication as prescribed, it goes a long way to helping their rehabilitation, and they modify their behaviour appropriately.

I have worked for 30 years with people who live on the streets or in hostels, and have mental health issues. I find we as a society are becoming  less tolerant of people with such illnesses today. I know of people who have died in winters such as we have now. A few weeks ago a great grandfather who was on the way to the GPs parked his car and in the centre of Salisbury slipped on the snow, and knocked himself out, it is claimed people walked past him as he lay there for 4 hours before someone called the police and an ambulance. Why was that?

http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/salisbury/salisburynews/8711226.Elderly_man_lies_in_street_for_four_hours_as_people_walk_by/ (http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/salisbury/salisburynews/8711226.Elderly_man_lies_in_street_for_four_hours_as_people_walk_by/)

It may have been because people stereotype the people who shall we say "live on the street"? Many of those that died on the street that I have dealt with had at one time had everyday lives and some had powerful positions in society how they came to die in the street wrapped in cardboard etc opened my eyes. Many of them were decorated ex service personnel. That is why I have so much time for the Salvation Army as they help the most destitute of people. I could tell you a many a story about a rehabilitation, but I won't.

If anyone thinks an  ASBO can solve such a complex matter then I believe hopes will be continually dashed. But then many ASBOs do work and work well one only has to look at the successes of the Swindon Youth Offending Team, one of the continually highest rated and acheiving YOTs  in the country. There are many examples I could give but confidentaility prevents me from naming them, but I can name this one because they have been named in the adver and also made national headlines  I can refer to the case:

Read the Adver

Before ASBO Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1220669.Girls__13_and_14__are_given_Asbos/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1220669.Girls__13_and_14__are_given_Asbos/)

After ASBO Rebecca Ball http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1678554.Asbo_girl_turns_over_a_new_leaf/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1678554.Asbo_girl_turns_over_a_new_leaf/)

After ASBO Hannah Bell http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/3716497.The_tiny_terror_turns_a_corner/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/3716497.The_tiny_terror_turns_a_corner/)

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 06:25:14 PM
"it is not a very straightforward history,” he said.

“Over the course of the last few years, he has been unwell with schizophrenia.

And, as I said above, defence laywers always come out with this stuff, it's their job. They don't care if the mental illness does, or doesn't, have anything to do with the offending - they just know that it makes the magistrate/judge's job easier as they can be unduly lenient without anyone being able to complain about it.

Or are they seriously suggesting that Ian Pounds has a split personality and one 'part' of him is the begging, intimidating law-breaking (who also batters pensions if they don't agree with him)?

“In the main, his offending has always been linked with the town centre and that was the focus of the Asbo.”

Ah, that's OK then, as long as his law breaking and ASBO breaches only happen in the town centre 'in the main'. Seriously, what is the quote above even supposed to mean? The defence lawyer then suggests that the town centre was the focus of the ASBO when, in fact, it applied to the entire borough of Swindon. It's all such nonsense.

Clearly prison is not working to use Ken Clark's view and he accepts that more people will be on the streets who would have been in prison.

Ken Clarke is wrong and Ken Clarke will, hopefully, be removed from his current post very shortly. As it stands, he's Labour's best hope for winning some votes.

There are many examples I could give but confidentaility prevents me from naming them, but I can name this one because they have been named in the adver and also made national headlines  I can refer to the case:

Read the Adver

Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell

I don't doubt that some people, especially very young teenagers, simply grow out of their anti-social behaviour, it's almost an aspect of simply growing up and becoming an adult. In the same way, some people simply commit one offence (for whatever reason), it doesn't prove that their 'rehabilitation' worked, it just means they may not have had the reason to reoffend any longer. For example, if somebody murders another person because that person had previously raped them, they'd be unlikely to ever kill anyone in the future - so their period in prison wouldn't have 'rehabilitated' them at all, they'd just have no reason to kill anyone again.

I sincerely hope that both Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell manage to stay out of trouble on an ongoing basis. However, just because an ASBO on two 13-year old girls may have played a part in them behaving themselves, it does not mean that an ASBO will work for the likes of Ian Pounds, who has repeatedly demonstrated, very clearly, that his ASBO does not work and likely never will work.

Although, in the case of Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell I suspect it's another case of having cake and eating it. If they stay out of trouble the pro-ASBO lobby will claim a success but if they go on to commit further offences/ASB the pro-ASBO lobby will say, 'Ah, but it's very complex and ASBOs don't necessarily always work' or they'll say (as always makes me laugh when defence laywers do it), 'Ah, yes, but it's been at least four years since they last offenced' - as if the fact that they're not offending every single hour of every single day somehow makes everything OK.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Simon on December 18, 2010, 06:35:47 PM
I just can not see how you using his photograph and name on Talkswindon will help.


Admittedly, I don't know what Talk Swindon's site visitor statistics are


According to the more stats page (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?action=stats), just over 100 thousand page views so far this month and just shy of 160 thousand page views last month. I know some of those will be search engine bots and the like, but I think it still indicates a fairly substantial readership.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Ringer on December 18, 2010, 07:04:25 PM
I wonder how many visits that other blogs in Swindon have?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on December 18, 2010, 07:09:08 PM
According to the more stats page ([url]http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?action=stats[/url]), just over 100 thousand page views so far this month and just shy of 160 thousand page views last month. I know some of those will be search engine bots and the like, but I think it still indicates a fairly substantial readership.


That's a very healthy number. Hopefully plenty of Swindonians will have read this thread and have become aware who Ian Pounds is and what his ASBO conditions forbid him from doing.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 05, 2011, 10:28:22 AM
In light of this information:

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8891587.Crime_falls_by_47_per_cent_in_man___s_absence/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8891587.Crime_falls_by_47_per_cent_in_man___s_absence/)

I'd be very interesting to hear whether Central Ward councillors helped this man stay out of prison whilst in Swindon. It seems another, very obvious, instance where the man should have been put in prison for a very long time in order to protect the public.

But he wasn't. The people of Broadgreen had to wait until the man himself decided to move to Bristol (for how long? It won't take long before they're bored of him... and certain areas of Bristol are far less, er, accommodating, than Broadgreen) before the terrorism finally ended.

Or, maybe, certain people believe that Abdi Muse has 'reflected and accepted' things and is now a law-abiding citizen  :2funny:
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Richard Symonds on March 05, 2011, 01:51:16 PM
I believe that immigrants who commit crimes in our Country should be repatriated immediately and banned from our shores for life.  Why should we tolerate other countries' criminals?

This guy should be removed today before he costs us another penny in money or further grief to the law abiding majority who live here.

I do not apologise if this offends anyone because for the life of me I don't understand why it should.

Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 11, 2011, 01:21:47 PM
EU law prevents us from employing this kind of policy for criminals from the EU states.

And the way in which our judges have decided to deliberately misinterpret the Human Rights Act means criminals from other areas of the world are also largely protected and can remain in the UK after having committed their crimes.

Indeed, evidence has been found of the 'info packs' given to immigrants from abroad that point out that the best way of  quickly securing a right to remain in the UK is to be convicted of a crime here.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Richard Symonds on March 14, 2011, 07:53:24 AM
Years ago I knew a group of immigration officers at Heathrow and they regularly gave back people they bounced back to the airlines to return them from whence they came.  These guys used to make the majority of their decisions within thirty minutes.

Sadly these are only memories but if action were taken quickly it could save us all a fortune.   

Did I hear yesterday that Yarl'swood in Bedfordshire was closing down.  I know a very happy lady who looks at it accross a field and has campaigned for years to achieve this after she witnessed it going up in flames costing £40m after being open for a mere six weeks.  It was alleged that two known terrorists escaped that night never to be recaptured but as you know that was always denied. 
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 14, 2011, 09:31:12 AM
Did I hear yesterday that Yarl'swood in Bedfordshire was closing down.

Sort of.

Another misguided LibDem policy that they seem eerily pleased about imposing. Expect every would-be illegal immigrant/asylum seeker to now arrive with children in tow. Some of them may even be theirs.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 20, 2011, 04:59:09 AM
Oh well, that didn't last long:

Quote
A NOTORIOUS troublemaker has reappeared in Swindon.

A long-term ban is now being sought on troubled Somali man Abdi Muse, after he pleaded guilty to breaching his interim Anti-Social Behaviour Order by returning to Broadgreen, a district he is barred from.

[url]http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8919990.Troublemaker_reappears_in_Swindon/[/url]


The police appear 'happy' that he's broken his interim ASBO, by entering Broadgreen, because they now have a better case to arrange a full ASBO to stop him entering Broadgreen. They don't seem to notice that he clearly doesn't give a monkeys about ASBOs or their deluded belief that he might not simply do as he pleases.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Mart on March 20, 2011, 11:53:07 AM
Yeah, but he's troubled.

Thorny subject culpability if you are troubled, I often wonder about the insanity defence, should you be punished as much as the sane man? The effect of your crime is the same, the suffering you inflict is the same.

I suppose if I went a bit doolally and did something stupid I would expect understanding, but if I was the victim of some herbert who had skipped their medication I might come over all Old Testament.

Genuinely vexed by the subject.

Back to the point, if he is'troubled' does an ASBO even register?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 20, 2011, 12:07:37 PM
Back to the point, if he is'troubled' does an ASBO even register?

Given the so-called consequences he's thus far faced for breaching the law and the various pointless bits of paper they've then waved in his face, I'd argue, 'no' - why would it?

I don't doubt that this man is 'troubled', but I also don't doubt he knows full well what he isn't supposed to being doing. He just knows full well that it doesn't make any difference what he does.

Surely this guy must be a prime example of an individual who should be deported? We know exactly where he's from and he's done nothing but be a law-breaking blight on the community that welcomed him since he arrived here.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 20, 2011, 05:24:14 PM
Are you getting muddled between being a 'trouble maker' and being 'troubled'. I'm a bit troubled at present.  But I don't walk the streets at night trying to make a nuisance of myself.

As to the interim and full ASBO, it's not the Police fault that that is the way the law is written.  We all should be given a chance to stop what we are doing before the full force of the law comes down on us.

An interim ASBO has probably been used in the past to take a problem past it's juvenile stage into an adult one when the law kicks in in a grown up criminal way.  I.e. better that it going on to a full ASBO, they get done for grown up stuff with longer, harsher sentences etc.

There is quite a lot of difference between the interim, and the full ASBO  they soon find out that difference, a few of them have tried it out and found out.  Not that many! 
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 20, 2011, 06:22:06 PM
We all should be given a chance to stop what we are doing before the full force of the law comes down on us.


I agree. I reckon 3 chances is fair.

But 31 chances in less than a year seems, how can I put it...  :censored: ridiculous.

Quote
He had 31 arrests to his name in just 11 months, until he was jailed in December for common assault and abusive behaviour.

[url]http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/local/8891587.Crime_falls_by_47_per_cent_in_man___s_absence/[/url]


Why the system allows this man to continually and repeatedly blight other people's lives is beyond me. He needs to be put in prison for a significant number of years.

Everyone seems collectively over the moon that he'd left to go and live in Bristol (nice way to simply move the problem elsewhere) but, as I suspected, he's obviously not been tolerated quite so accommodatingly down there, so within three weeks he's back in Swindon causing problems and breaking the pointless interim ASBO (which has obviously failed).
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 21, 2011, 08:53:11 AM
Quite right 20, why if he is a grown up and into big boy crime, is he being given an ASBO?  seems to me that as he was arrested and apparently ot charged then he is also wasting Police time.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 11:12:38 AM
What an absolute farce. Watching this video is like a Monty Python sketch or something:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12813963 (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-12813963)

Quote
A man who has spent eight years in and out of prison for repeatedly defying an anti-social behaviour order (Asbo) is seeking to have it overturned.

Simon Frodsham made his 44th appearance in court on Monday for breaching the order, which has banned him from the Lytham St Annes area since 2003.

But he says the Asbo breaches his civil rights and is applying to Blackpool Magistrates' Court to have it lifted.

His solicitor estimates that enforcing the Asbo has cost taxpayers about £2m.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 22, 2011, 01:56:33 PM
Something wrong here, farily sure that ASBO's have not been about as long as 2003.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Alligator on March 22, 2011, 02:04:23 PM
Something wrong here, farily sure that ASBO's have not been about as long as 2003.


Muggins, according to Wikipedia, "ASBOs were first introduced in England, Scotland and Wales by the Crime and Disorder Act 1998."  but later legislation (2003) strengthened them further.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-Social_Behaviour_Order
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 02:11:38 PM
Something wrong here, farily sure that ASBO's have not been about as long as 2003.

That was the only part you found a bit questionable??
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 22, 2011, 02:21:13 PM
20, No 'course not,  just wondered how he had got an ASBO so long ago.   Just had a quick swat up and had forgotten what small but totally annoying actions you could get an ASBO for. I thought I must have nodded off for a few years.

I think they really began to bite here

http://www.csas.org.uk/Respect%20Agenda

Certainly it was after this time that we attended conferences and meetings about ASBO's and we actually saw them start to work around here.

I know we felt that there was a lot of work that had to be done between the then new Crime and Disorder Act and the mind set of the Police and the other partnerships they had to forge to be effective.  If I remember rightly a few things were tested out and found to be wanting before  they became more routine.  I can't account for every one, but they certainly seem to do the trick around here after 2005, although it's not a quick procedure by any means. 
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 22, 2011, 02:25:42 PM
A reminder of ASBO's

The Purpose of an ASBO
According to the United Kingdom's Home Office web site, ASBOs are issued against an individual for a minimum of two years. The order can be extended if need be. The purpose of the order is "to protect specific victims, neighbours, or even whole communities from behaviour that has frightened or intimidated them, or damaged their quality of life."

Because anti-social behaviour as the law is written is a violation of civil order, not a violation of a criminal statute, there is no criminal record for those who obey the order. Disobeying the restrictions set out in the order is a crime. Individuals over 10 years old who violate an anti-social behaviour order can face a fine and/or a penalty of up to five years in prison.

Behaviours Deemed Anti-Social
Anti-social behaviour orders can be issued for a wide range of behaviours. The behaviour itself may not be illegal. An order is issued if the behaviour is deemed to have a significant negative impact on another person or on the community. ASBOs can be issued for spitting, intimidation, fare jumping, begging, stealing, mugging or shoplifting, abandoning cars in public places, drunken behavior in public, illegal trash dumping, not cleaning up after your pet, vandalism, noise pollution or performing in a public place for tips without a license.

How Orders Are Issued
Before an order is issued victims of anti-social behaviour must contact their local anti-social behaviour team, neighborhood policing team or local police station directly and file a complaint. Evidence has to show the behaviour is occurring and is having a negative impact. Police sometimes ask a complainant to keep a diary recording specifies of the accused person's behavior. All complaints are kept confidential.

The evidence is presented in civil court. If the presiding judge issues the order there are a variety of avenues open to the police to persuade the offending individual to cease the anti-social behaviour



Read more: Introduction to ASBO | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/about_5465207_introduction-asbo.html#ixzz1HL2S9AJU
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 02:33:38 PM
Disobeying the restrictions set out in the order is a crime. Individuals over 10 years old who violate an anti-social behaviour order can face a fine and/or a penalty of up to five years in prison.


And according to official figures, a pathetic 2% of those who break their ASBOs actually face a prison sentence and yet over half of all ASBOs issued are broken, usually repeatedly.

It brings to mind the knife crime statistics that were issued a few weeks ago - the coalition is as bad as Labour on this, they must reform the judiciary, urgently. As far as I'm concerned, judges/magistrates who flout sentencing guidelines are really no different to criminals who break the law:

Quote
Only one in five people caught carrying a knife is being jailed, figures show.

The number of offenders put behind bars fell from almost 1,600 two years ago to a little over 1,000 in the final three months of last year, despite guidelines saying the starting point for the lowest level of knife possession should be 12 weeks in jail.


http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5h11JMl5I_Y9Cab6f46i16BCSXVrg?docId=N0277991299158584195A (http://www.google.com/hostednews/ukpress/article/ALeqM5h11JMl5I_Y9Cab6f46i16BCSXVrg?docId=N0277991299158584195A)
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 22, 2011, 03:36:07 PM
I would have thought that anyone carrying a knife was well out of the range of ASBO's and well into grown up crime.
We would all agree that knife carrying is bad, but using is a whole lot worse.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 04:10:02 PM
I would have thought that anyone carrying a knife was well out of the range of ASBO's and well into grown up crime.
We would all agree that knife carrying is bad, but using is a whole lot worse.

And you'd be right. The Sentencing Guidelines are very clear... it's just that magistrates and judges routinely ignore their own rules, with impunity.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 22, 2011, 04:49:45 PM
I can't say that, on account of I have never studied the subject, nor have I any experience of it.  I proabably wouldn't make sweeping statement if I had.  Surely they are not all bad?

Who is it that judges the judges?  Wher eis the scrutiny?  When and to whom do you make a complaint?  there must be some sort of Ofjudge.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 05:07:21 PM
I can't say that, on account of I have never studied the subject, nor have I any experience of it.  I proabably wouldn't make sweeping statement if I had.  Surely they are not all bad?

I'm sure they're not all bad, just a large percentage of them who ignore their own guidelines.

Who is it that judges the judges?  Wher eis the scrutiny? 

Precisely. Basically, they're not monitored and there is no scrutiny unless somebody demands a decision is looked into - which, of course, hardly ever happens - mainly because hardly anyone ever knows about the majority of them.

When and to whom do you make a complaint?  there must be some sort of Ofjudge.

All anyone can do is make a representation that a judge has made an unduly lenient, or harsh, sentence. It then may or may not be looked into.

Basically, they are virtually unaccountable. The only people who ever do judge judges are, other judges. It's a terrible system that is set up to protect itself.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Chav on March 22, 2011, 06:41:57 PM
Breaches of ASBO's, Injuctions and Undertakings are usually dealt with if enough people come forward and are prepared to give evidence concerning the breach.

Most ASBO's, injunctions and undertakings come with conditions.
ASBO's and injuctions if breached - usually with power of arrest and undertakings if breached would literally be a breach of Court and come with a hefty fine or prison sentence.

I do understand why people are worried about coming forward and giving evidence in court as it is not a nice experience and can be very intimidating especially if you are just one witness on your own giving evidence against a group of Anti- Social people be they youths or adults, male or female because no one else will come forward for being too petrified to do so.
I know this because I have experienced it.
It was not not nice, but I would do it again if I had to.

I bear no animosity or grudges and I believe in second chances, and some people do learn by it. However there are those who do not and sometimes people do cross a line where it is difficult to do anything to pull them back from taking the wrong path for most of their lives.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 07:00:20 PM
ASBO's and injuctions if breached - usually with power of arrest and undertakings if breached would literally be a breach of Court and come with a hefty fine or prison sentence.

Why do people keep saying this when the factual, documented evidence show it's simply not the case?

Only 2% of those who breach their ASBOs ever receive a custodial sentence. That percentage is so low as to make such 'threats' completely laughable, hence the reason the majority of ASBOs are broken.

Hardly anyone who breaches an ASBO gets a 'hefty fine' because the people concerned rarely have any money with which to pay any fine they might receive.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Chav on March 22, 2011, 07:16:45 PM
ASBO's and injuctions if breached - usually with power of arrest and undertakings if breached would literally be a breach of Court and come with a hefty fine or prison sentence.

Why do people keep saying this when the factual, documented evidence show it's simply not the case?

Only 2% of those who breach their ASBOs ever receive a custodial sentence. That percentage is so low as to make such 'threats' completely laughable, hence the reason the majority of ASBOs are broken.

Hardly anyone who breaches an ASBO gets a 'hefty fine' because the people concerned rarely have any money with which to pay any fine they might receive.

I hear what you are saying 20 and yes sometimes it may not be the case, but then again sometimes it is the case !

Would you give evidence in court 20' against an ASBO breacher ?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 07:36:06 PM
I hear what you are saying 20 and yes sometimes it may not be the case, but then again sometimes it is the case !

A 98% chance of not going to prison is pretty good odds, especially for those who've already shown they're more than happy to simply do as they please.

Would you give evidence in court 20' against an ASBO breacher ?

I don't see why not, other than that the evidence shows it's almost pointless because the judges always come down on the side of the criminal in any case. If Mr Field was hearing the case, I really don't think I'd bother wasting my time as he'd have already made up his mind not to do anything about the breach.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Chav on March 22, 2011, 08:10:43 PM
I hear what you are saying 20 and yes sometimes it may not be the case, but then again sometimes it is the case !

A 98% chance of not going to prison is pretty good odds, especially for those who've already shown they're more than happy to simply do as they please.

Would you give evidence in court 20' against an ASBO breacher ?

I don't see why not, other than that the evidence shows it's almost pointless because the judges always come down on the side of the criminal in any case. If Mr Field was hearing the case, I really don't think I'd bother wasting my time as he'd have already made up his mind not to do anything about the breach.

Not all Judges are the same 20  :)

If you are having trouble where you live - have you:
* contacted your neighbourhood policing team ?
* Emailed the ASB team at the Borough ?
* Emailed your local ward Cllr(s)
* Emailed the Borough Solicitor
Copy everyone in stating facts, the date, the time of the ASB etc.
Keep a folder with all the emails that you send and recieve re: ASB , keeping a paper trail is vitally important.

Have you heard of Street Watch ?  www.street-watch.org.uk



I would suggest
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 22, 2011, 08:39:43 PM
Not all Judges are the same 20  :)

Maybe not, but, unfortunately, the judge who oversees the majority of cases in Swindon is a problem. His peers in the town really aren't much better at all.

If you are having trouble where you live - have you:

There's always trouble where I live, it's par for the course. I don't have a problem with the police, who almost always do a fine job. My problem is with the judges who then allow the arrested and convicted criminals to walk free to reoffend. Until that stops, all other crime prevention measures are simply playing around the edges.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Chav on March 22, 2011, 08:52:02 PM
Not all Judges are the same 20  :)

Maybe not, but, unfortunately, the judge who oversees the majority of cases in Swindon is a problem. His peers in the town really aren't much better at all.

If you are having trouble where you live - have you:

There's always trouble where I live, it's par for the course. I don't have a problem with the police, who almost always do a fine job. My problem is with the judges who then allow the arrested and convicted criminals to walk free to reoffend. Until that stops, all other crime prevention measures are simply playing around the edges.

20' have you written to the 'said Judge', to say how you feel and how this is affecting you ?
I would - a Judge will have a snap shot of the offender , but if you are living a life of hell everyday because of a serial offender/ASBO'er then you need to show them the impact it is having on your life.

This is where being a witness is important and giving evidence in front of the offender and the Judge as this is an opportunity to show exactly how the behaviour of the offender is affecting not only your life, but that of your family.

Right - off to bed now 20', but I do understand how you feel and believe me the frustration it causes also has an impact on ones well-being.

Chav  :wink:
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on March 23, 2011, 09:08:12 AM
20 "Only 2% of those who breach their ASBOs ever receive a custodial sentence."

Thats because mostly (not always) what the ASBO offender does is not grown up crime, it's just a  blasted nuisance.  Sometimes the ultimate punishment is that the family of the offender lose their home, with no chance of getting another rented from any authority.  Having deemed to behave in a way that they deliberately made themsleves homeless.

I didn't expect that the kids outside my house throwing mud at my house and sitting on my front wall swearing and catcalling and generally making a nuisance of themselves, would get a custodial sentence, neither would I have wanted them to. I just wanted them to stop.

Luckily for me the street was 'all in it together' and the combined proof of harassment and aggravation built up and after them ignoring several methods to bring them into the 'decent human being' sector, the inevitable happened and their family lost their home and were banned from the area.   

ASBO's are to tackle that low level crime which intruded into our daily lifes, not to tackle real grown up crime that would get them custodial sentences, that was already in place, not covering the really young ages of some of the pests. 

At first the youths did try to push the boundaries, less so now, when they realised that there is no long term hiding place.  It's getting into the youth culture (and theri families) that they might as well stump up sooner into the process.  Telling them that ASBO's don't work is encouraging them to kick against them, when eventually the ASBO will stop their behaviour. Unless of course they get into the big boy crime before then.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on March 23, 2011, 10:10:43 AM
20 "Only 2% of those who breach their ASBOs ever receive a custodial sentence."

Thats because mostly (not always) what the ASBO offender does is not grown up crime, it's just a  blasted nuisance.

The behaviour that generates the ASBO may just be 'annoying', but the behaviour that breaches that ASBO becomes a criminal offence in that breaching the ASBO is a criminal offence - and one that is supposed to attract either a significant fine or a custodial sentence.

If you are aware that 98% of breaches don't result in a custodial sentence, where's the incentive not to breach it? Get another ASBO on top of the one you've already got and then breached? It reminds me of when judges hand people who've been found guilty of driving while banned another driving ban... er, hello?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Dougal on March 26, 2011, 07:59:55 AM

Admittedly, I don't know what Talk Swindon's site visitor statistics are


According to the more stats page ([url]http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?action=stats[/url]), just over 100 thousand page views so far this month and just shy of 160 thousand page views last month. I know some of those will be search engine bots and the like, but I think it still indicates a fairly substantial readership.


Administrator Comment Site visits by bots and spiders are routinely excluded from those statistics although every once in a while a new type of bot or spider is released into the wild and TS will be briefly deluged.

We're quite good at keeping them under control usually.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on June 07, 2011, 12:35:18 PM
Here's dear old Abdi Muse again. Getting an ASBO again. For the same thing again. Only, this time, the ASBO banning him from entering Broad Green contains a specific clause allowing him to enter Broad Green:

Quote
Abdi Muse, 45, has been barred from possessing any alcohol in any public place in Swindon, and from entering the Broadgreen area at all.

But after hearing all the arguments, magistrate David Rogers agreed to grant the order – but amended it so Muse can access the drop-in facility in Carfax Street and the bus station, both of which are in Broad Green.

[url]http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/9068557.Man_banned_from_Broadgreen_area/[/url] ([url]http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/9068557.Man_banned_from_Broadgreen_area/[/url])


The word 'farce' just isn't good enough anymore.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: Muggins on June 07, 2011, 03:49:47 PM
What else would you expect to happen to him 20? - it looks like he's a blessed nuisance.

Should he be slapped in jail at Her Majesty's pleasure?
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: 20Eyes on June 07, 2011, 04:02:29 PM
What else would you expect to happen to him 20? - it looks like he's a blessed nuisance.


So much of a nuisance that they've again issued an ASBO to stop him entering Broadgreen, just like the last ASBO they gave him in December 2010 - which he broke, apart from the fact that, this time, his ASBO specifically allows him to enter Broadgreen.

Should he be slapped in jail at Her Majesty's pleasure?


As he clearly very much intends to continue hanging around Broadgreen (and will definitely do so seeing as he's allowed to go into Broadgreen under his ASBO of not going into Broadgreen) and that this is the result of him not being in Broadgreen:

Quote
Crime falls by 47 per cent in man’s absence
9:40pm Friday 4th March 2011

ANTI-SOCIAL behaviour has halved in one part of the town centre – thanks to the departure of a single man

[url]http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8891587.Crime_falls_by_47_per_cent_in_man___s_absence/[/url] ([url]http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8891587.Crime_falls_by_47_per_cent_in_man___s_absence/[/url])


I would have thought the answer to that particular question would be obvious.

Given activities of late, in that area, it really wouldn't surprise me to pick up the Adver one day to find this chap's been killed by someone who's simply had enough of him. And then it'll be the usual "How could we have known?" hand-wringing by the authorities.
Title: Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
Post by: itspavagain on June 07, 2011, 04:23:49 PM
If he now lives in Bristol can't we ban him from entering Swindon?