Talkswindon

Elections => Swindon Council Elections & AV Referendum 2011 => Topic started by: Geoff Reid on April 11, 2011, 02:07:10 AM

Title: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 11, 2011, 02:07:10 AM

Blogged Here: http://www.geoffreid.com/?p=1050 (http://www.geoffreid.com/?p=1050)

(http://www.geoffreid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Stan_Pajak_lib_dem_pinnochio.png)

We're just a few weeks away from the 2011 local elections in Swindon and, as usual, the political rhetoric between opposing candidates is making for some interesting reading but,  unlike previous years, Swindon's residents can keep themselves better informed of the various claims and counter claims being made by election candidates via Talkswindon's Political Leaflet Library (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?board=238.0).

What I find particularly useful about having so many of Swindon's political leaflets easily accessible in one place is the ability to read what's been claimed by one candidate or councillor and then wander around the internet looking for evidence which either backs up or contradicts the claim.  With modern search engines, freedom of information services and easier-than-ever access to council officers getting at the truth gets easier, and quicker, all the time.  Which is why I find it so surprising that some politicians are still prepared to lie with impunity. Perhaps they think their lies won't be noticed, or if they are, no one will investigate and comment on them.

Although there are Borough-wide incidents of political-porkies being told by all parties, one Swindon ward in particular is being subjected to a concentrated bombardment of political lies.  Eastcott Ward.  The last bastion of the Liberal Democrat Party in Swindon.

Eastcott ward has long been known as the Liberal Democrat stronghold in Swindon and, until recently, the 3 Eastcott seats in the Council Chamber were considered so 'safe' that other parties fielded  'paper candidates' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_candidate) in Eastcott at elections.  Outside of Eastcott ward Swindon's Lib Dems hold only one other council seat - Andy Harrison in Penhill ward.   Eastcott's current crop of Lib Dem councillors are: Cllr Dave Wood, Cllr Martin Wiltshire and Cllr Stand Pajak.  Cllr Wiltshire is standing down this May but we'll return to the Lib Dems choice of replacement candidate later in the blog.

I spend some time talking to residents of Eastcott and although it is true to say that many of the people I've spoken to said that they felt the Lib Dems have been 'doing a good job' and that they felt well represented, when questioned as to why they believed that to be the case, and asked if they had any personal experience of the Lib Dems doing something for them, almost all of them said that they thought it to be true based on what the Lib Dems themselves had been telling them via leaflets and doorstep canvassing.

But what would Eastcott residents think if they were to learn that the Lib Dems haven't been exactly honest with them on their own doorsteps, have lied deliberately in their leaflets and even, (in at least one instance I can identify),  lied about who they are in an attempt to 'knobble' a rival candidate?  If the Eastcott Lib Dems 'reputation' within the ward, and records of 'delivery' for the ward are as good as they claim, why do they feel the need resort to such shitty tactics and what does it say about their moral compasses once they have done so?

I think 'Political Fear' of Chris Watts, this years Labour candidate for Eastcott, is one reason the Lib Dems have lied and another would be:  'This is how we've always done things'.  Neither of these is easy to prove to a sceptical readership, but I'll spit out a few easy-to-verify tit-bits and readers will be able to draw their own conclusions from them.

So lets start with Chris Watts:  Chris first 'appeared' on Swindon's political radar in late 2009 when he put his analytical mind and determined temperament to good use scrutinising Swindon's now infamous 'Wifi' scheme.  It is no exaggeration to say that Chris's investigative efforts exposed several serving Borough Councillors as abject and habitual liars,  uncovered systemic incompetence at Directorship levels within the Borough Council and last, but definitely not least, that his own Liberal Democrat ward Councillors, were nowhere near as good at representing their residents as they say they were.  Chris didn't go out of his way to make the Lib Dems look bad, it just became obvious in passing that they were really not as good as they look in their own leaflets.

A bitter-sweet day arrived for the Eastcott Lib Dems in  2010 when Chris announced he had joined the labour party.  Bitter for the Lib Dems in that they realised that Chris, an Eastcott resident of 14 years, was no longer just a well informed and well intentioned member of the public intent on exposing and talking about various public issues, but now seemed likely to take the next step towards seeking a mandate from his fellow residents to represent them formally in council.  Sweet for the Lib Dems in that they could now begin 'officially' attacking and undermining the person that had, just by doing what they should of been doing, exposed them as ineffectual by comparison.  For the first time, the publicity suits worn by Eastcotts three 'Emperors' were seen for what they are - transparent.

Having decided that he might run stand for election to Swindon Borough Council, Chris turned his attention to several long running issues within Eastcott ward, and a couple more which are of concern to the entire town (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/fairfares4swindon-com-launched/), and it didn't take long before the observational skills he'd honed scrutinising wifi detected that things in Eastcott were often not quite, if at all, as the Lib Dems described them and, even more surprising to him,  it quickly became apparent that the Lib Dems, worried that Chris might succeed where they have so long failed to make any progress, had begun saying things about Chris which were, and are, demonstrably untrue.

One instance of Eastcott's Lib Dems promoting a deliberate lie is the curious case of the 2nd Kingshill Crossing (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/kingshill-road-2nd-crossing-lib-dem-fantasy/).   Cllr's Pajak and Woods have long used the prospect of a 2nd pedestrian crossing on Kingshill Road as a convenient campaigning device.  They know that, (as things stand now), the case for a second crossing on Kingshill Road is thin - in fact it was rejected again by the Council cabinet (http://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=24237&J=1) as recently as 2009 - but that did not stop Cllr Woods giving residents false-hope, (and the impression he was actually doing something useful), by asking them to sign his petition during his election campaign which, once he had been elected,  didn't seem to be submitted to the council. In fact I've never heard of it again.

Later, when it became apparent to them that Chris Watts was also having a realistic and holistic look at the chronology and geography of the 2nd Kingshill Crossing, the Lib Dems realised that Kingshill residents were about to learn that, despite 13 years of Liberal Democrat campaign 'noise' on the issue, they had nothing to show for it apart from 3 very polished seats in the council chamber.  Urgent action would be needed to limit the potential damage to Eastcotts lib dems and, by copying what the Conservatives do elsewhere in Swindon,  they quickly formed KARA, the Kingshill Residents Association (http://karaswindon.wordpress.com), thus moving themselves expediently away from the specific issue of the 2nd Kingshill Road crossing and stealthily trying to widen their political influence within the community.

KARA was created in September 2010 and its 'About' page (http://karaswindon.wordpress.com/about/), written by Nicky Sewell, chair of the Association,  says:


Quote
In August 2010 a group of a dozen residents met together to  discuss the possibility of forming a Residents’ Association to represent  the Kingshill area in Swindon. At that meeting we talked about an  organisation that can campaign and lobby on behalf of local residents,  an organisation that can strive to enhance local community cohesion and  an organisation made up of neighbours who care about the Kingshill area  and want to make it an even better area in which to live. Following that  meeting, we leafleted local streets and held a meeting at the Clifton  Inn (thank you!) in September where we formally adopted our constitution  and elected our Committee and Road Representatives. It was suggested at  that meeting that we should expand to include Radnor Street, Shelley  Street and Fairview and they were adopted into KARA – welcome! At that  meeting was a representative from Swindon Borough Council, a local ward  Councillor, Neighbourhood Watch Co-ordinator and members of the  Neighbourhood Policing Team. Around 40 local residents attended and  raised issues effecting them at a very local level. We look forward to  KARA growing bigger and stronger and really making a difference for the  local Kingshill area. Thank you for your ongoing support and we look  forward to working with you!

Nicky Sewell, Chair



The ward councillor present at this meeting was none other than Nicky's boyfriend - Cllr Dave Wood.   Their relationship is never mentioned in lib dem leaflets, which shouldn't be an issue in itself, except that they seem to go to particular trouble to omit ever mentioning it in their printed literature or on the doorstep and, readers of Lib Dem leaflets will notice, how Nicky is described varies between leaflets - sometimes she is Nicky Sewell Chair of KARA and sometimes Nicky Sewell is a 'Local campaigner' - it all depends what 'image' they hope to project to residents.  Just to be clear here though,  Nicky Sewell is the Chair of KARA and her boyfriend is Cllr Dave Wood, who also happens to be the vice chair of KARA.

This is all well and good I hear some readers say, 'but when are we going to get to the lies?' - so here they are.  Once the Eastcott Lib Dems had set up KARA, they turned their attention to dealing with Cllr Martin Wiltshire's decision to step down from council, and who might replace him.  It didn't come as any real surprise when Cllr Stan Pajak introduced (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2001%2010%20Lib%20Dem%20Stan%20Pajak%20Eastcott.pdf) Nicky Sewell, Cllr Wood's girlfriend and Chair of the newly formed KARA as the Lib Dem 2011 candidate for Eastcott, and the first lie we're going to discuss wasn't long in coming .

Two months after Stan Pajak introduced Nicky Sewell as the Lib Dem candidate for Eastcott she appeared alongside him in a glossy A3 leaflet but is oddly referred to as "Local campaigner Nicky Sewell".  There is no mention that she is the Chair of KARA, presumably because as chair of KARA she would be expected to know that the following statement made in this, her introductory leaflet, was a deliberate lie:


Quote from: Cllr Stan Pajak
"You always know when there is an  election coming up when Swindon Labour start coming to the door.  Normally  they harmlessly copy the FOCUS Team’s issues, but this time they nearly  wrecked the campaign for a second Kingshill crossing".  Cllr Stan Pajak said:   â€œLabour’s candidate went in like a bull in a china shop and likely made  the Council dig its heels in, undoing months of influence and  persuasion. We must not let Labour’s party politics point scoring wreck the  Crossing Campaign for another generation.”



A freedom of information request to Gwillam Lloyd (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/kingshill_crossing#incoming-159704) (Head of Highway Management at Swindon Borough Council), confirmed that Councillor Pajak was telling Eastcott residents something that was demonstrably untrue.  Mr. Ceri Stephens, Performance Officer at Environment Regeneration & Community of Swindon Borough Council said:

Quote from: Ceri Stephens
"I can confirm that we can find no evidence of any correspondence or other communication with Christopher Watts on either the topic of Kingshill Crossing or any other topic"



In addition to publishing bare faced bullshit and confirming to residents that he had been running the Kingshill Crossing 'campaign' for an awfully long time with no result, (13 years), Cllr Pajak compounded his gaffe by accusing Chris Watt's of  "party politics point scoring".   I think the only point scored here was the own-goal scored by Stan when he decided that publishing a lie was preferable to telling the truth.  Perhaps he thought he could just explain it away if challenged or, as he's done at least once before, try to divert blame for his own untrue statements onto his intended target.  Stan has 'previous' for this, and the public record shows that even when a priest objected to something Stan claimed about him in a May 2003 election ,  Stan simply implied that the priest was lying.

At the time the Swindon Advertiser reported:

Quote from: The Swindon Advertiser
In the Liberal Democrat publication, Focus, Coun Dickinson, who was  elected as a Central ward councillor on May 1, used a picture of St  Luke's Parish Priest Father Leslie Pinfield under the   headline "I'm backing Michael".

The publicity material quoted the priest praising the work of Coun  Dickinson in the fight to clean up prostitution in the area. Father  Pinfield denies saying this. But because Coun Dickinson was   only a candidate at the time when the material was distributed, his  agent is being held responsible.

Les Horn, chairman of Broad Street Community Council, was so amazed at what he read that he wrote a letter to Father Pinfield.

Part of the priest's reply read: "We did indeed have a discussion  about the problem of prostitution in the neighbourhood, as I have done  with many other people of all political persuasions. I am  afraid that the rest of it is made up."

But Coun Pajak said: "This is not something that worries me. I believe  Father Leslie said what he did we met him on the corner of the street  and he sanctioned Michael.

"This is nothing untoward it's just the interpretation and the fact we won the seat.

"As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to worry about because people are making a mountain out of a molehill."



Stan may not be worried by a mere trifle like the truth, but even a molehill will occasionally trip the daintiest of fork-tongued political tap-dancers.

Almost inevitably though, we must now take a quick look at what Cllr Dave Wood, Nicky Sewell's boyfriend and Vice Chairman of KARA, has been up to as he tries to hide his girlfriends election campaign activities, or lack of them, from the scrutiny of Chris Watts.   It seems that late in 2010 the issue of replacing the long-gone post box in the wall of the long-gone Old Post Office in Clifton Street was raised by a Kingshill resident at a KARA meeting.

Oddly, (or maybe it's only odd if you don't already know who is pulling the strings at KARA), the subject of the Clifton Street Post Box then featured prominently in an Eastcott Liberal Democrat leaflet in which they claimed credit for lobbying the Royal Mail to have the post box re-instated.   On the basis of this leaflet Eastcott residents were left in little doubt that the Lib Dems were already 'fighting hard against tiers of institutionalised bureaucracy' at the Royal Mail to make it happen.  Unfortunately, it seems that the Lib Dems hadn't bothered to actually bother contacting the Royal Mail (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2002%2001%20Labour%20Eastcott%20Matters.pdf) and the Royal Mail therefore remained, (until Chris Watts contacted their Collections Delivery Manager to find out how the re-instatement was progressing), blissfully unaware that the issue even existed.

Political translation: The issue of the Clifton Street Post Box was being treated as a handy one for the Eastcott Lib Dems to whip out just prior to local elections, but was then to be left, unresolved, until it became electorally useful again.  Just like the 13 year old Kingshill Crossing Campaign.

Residents of Clifton Street might have faced a similar decade+ of 'campaigning' had Chris Watts not begun a phone and email conversation with the Royal Mail Collections Performance Manager in Reading and genuinely got the ball rolling and, in early March 2011, Chris received the following message from the Royal Mail:


Quote
Chris,

I  have had a call from Dave Ward who tells me he works from Swindon  Borough Council and have arranged to meet him at the site Monday at  10:00. You are welcome to come along if you wish.

Regards



Chris was pleased to announce in a leaflet (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2005%20Labour%20Eastcott%20Matters.pdf) that he had been invited to a site meeting in Clifton Street with the Collections manager and a 'representative' from Swindon Borough Council to discuss the re-instatement of the post box, but the good news was soon eclipsed by bad.

Chris then received another email from the Royal Mail which cancelled the site visit.  He telephoned the collections manager and discovered that 'Mr Ward' was actually Councillor Dave Wood who had, after reading a copy of Chris Watt's leaflet, contacted the Royal Mail manager and put the verbal boot into her, suggesting forcefully that she had nothing to do with Chris Watts because, "as the Labour candidate for Eastcott,  his interest was purely political".   I believe that Cllr Woods, even at this stage of the game and whilst expending  considerable effort in denouncing Chris Watts for being an election candidate, still omitted to mention that he was a serving Liberal Democrat Councillor for Eastcott.  Bad boy Dave.

Thanks to Cllr Woods party political masquerade, the site meeting remains cancelled, and the issue of the Clifton Street Post Box is, for the time being, dead in the water.   Royal Mail managers are notoriously wary of becoming embroiled in politic scandal, (for good reason), and when politicians start lying about who they are to get one up on each other,  then a scandal is not going to be far behind.

In summary then, residents of Eastcott might wish to ask any Lib Dems who knock on their door prior to next months local elections the following questions:

Why is Kingshill Road still without a 2nd pedestrian crossing after 13 years of Lib Dem campaigning?

Why haven't the Eastcott Lib Dems come clean about who runs KARA?

If Eastcott's Lib Dems are so sure of their electoral support within the ward, why do they feel the need to lie about Chris Watts in their leaflets?

Why did Lib Dem Cllr Dave Woods make the Royal Manager believe that he worked from Swindon Council but chose not to tell her that he was actually an Eastcott Lib Dem Councillor?

What happened to the 200 signature '2nd Kingshill Crossing' petition Cllr Wood was promoting during his 2009 election campaign? - it seems that it was never deposited with or presented to the Borough Council after Cllr Woods was re-elected.



Personally, I would not reward a candidate with my vote if I knew, or thought that they had lied to me.  Neither would I do so if I thought their colleagues had lied for their joint electoral benefit and I take particular exception to political lies being pushed through my letterbox and repeated to my face on my doorstep.  I expect many residents of Eastcott might well feel the same way which is why I'm happy to spend a Sunday evening sharing my knowledge with them.

Having got to know Chris Watts a little whilst scrutinising the wifi, I know he is honest, thorough and determined.  I have little doubt that he will do exactly what it says on the tin if given the chance and Eastcott would be well served by him if it chooses to elect him.

Having observed Eastcotts Lib Dems in action, through the media and the public record I find increasing amounts of evidence, (some of it even authored by them), which suggests that they're nowhere near as good as they say they are and that their moral compass points towards 'selfish' instead of 'selfless'.  I'm of the opinion that a Lib Dem pledge in Eastcott is as trustworthy as one from their leader, Nick Clegg, and their claim that they are "Not in a coalition locally but are able to influence" is risible but, changing the position of just one word makes this phrase: "In a coalition locally but are not able to influence" - more believable.

I am not surprised that Eastcotts Lib Dems are terrified of residents getting a proper look at Chris Watts in action, because they might decide that they want a couple more just like him.

Make your own minds up.  Have a look at Chris's 600+ postings on the www.talkswindon.org forum (http://www.talkswindon.org), see what his own blog (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com) says and learn how he's approaching the 2nd Kingshill Crossing issue on the Kingshill Area Road Safety Campaign (http://karscam.wordpress.com/) website.

Whatever you do though,  please don't just take a liberal Democrats word at face value.   Remember that these are exactly the same people who thought it was okay to tell lies about St  Luke's Parish Priest Father Leslie Pinfield and then call him a liar when he challenged what they'd said about him...

...so, if you feel inclined to believe what Eastcott Lib Dems say about Chris Watts, why not ask Chris directly so you can hear his answer for yourself.

It's your vote, and you're entitled to use it with a clear conscience.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Drone on April 11, 2011, 06:24:09 AM
The Lib Dems habitually conduct dishonest, petty and cynical local election campaigns. I remain unconvinced that the Lib Dems have any kind of political belief system at a party level, which leaves local camapigners to present any opinion as party policy. At the doorstep and in local literature, Lib Dems will manipulate facts and promise just about anything to get elected. In fact, their campaigns to hold on to local safe seats is one of the resasons I'm not surprised by Nick Clegg's actions as leader of the party - they are a shower of dishonest b*stards who will say and do anything to gain and keep power.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 11, 2011, 07:12:02 AM
The Lib Dems habitually conduct dishonest, petty and cynical local election campaigns. I remain unconvinced that the Lib Dems have any kind of political belief system at a party level, which leaves local camapigners to present any opinion as party policy. At the doorstep and in local literature, Lib Dems will manipulate facts and promise just about anything to get elected. In fact, their campaigns to hold on to local safe seats is one of the resasons I'm not surprised by Nick Clegg's actions as leader of the party - they are a shower of dishonest b*stards who will say and do anything to gain and keep power.

In other words Drone - All things to all people and nothing to anyone!
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Jarvis on April 11, 2011, 08:22:23 AM
 
I was told only yesterday that Chris Watts is being blamed for wrecking the Clifton Street Post Box campaign.  I don't know if this is just word of mouth or is also being claimed in a leaflet. 
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Drone on April 11, 2011, 08:34:10 AM
The Lib Dems habitually conduct dishonest, petty and cynical local election campaigns. I remain unconvinced that the Lib Dems have any kind of political belief system at a party level, which leaves local camapigners to present any opinion as party policy. At the doorstep and in local literature, Lib Dems will manipulate facts and promise just about anything to get elected. In fact, their campaigns to hold on to local safe seats is one of the resasons I'm not surprised by Nick Clegg's actions as leader of the party - they are a shower of dishonest b*stards who will say and do anything to gain and keep power.

In other words Drone - All things to all people and nothing to anyone!

 :agreed:

I think that's why they always look so surprised when they do get into power!
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Jarvis on April 11, 2011, 08:54:33 AM
What happened to the Eastcott Community Council which CooT mentions here ?

I received quite an intersting leaflet through the door introducing the Eastcott Community Council and asking our views on what issues they should be engaging on and noticed the name of our very own Dave Wood in the "design".  This is exactly the sort of involvement we should have and in the process of doing the feedback questionnaire.

My only quibble is that they have their meetings on a Tuesday (which is fairly inpractical for me) and the website they  quoted was slightly wrong it should be [url]http://www.eastcottcc.btik.com/p_Home.ikml[/url] ([url]http://www.eastcottcc.btik.com/p_Home.ikml[/url])

Good luck with this


I've found http://www.eastcottcc.btik.com/Home (http://www.eastcottcc.btik.com/Home) but this site seems to be as empty of content as a liberal leaflet is of truth and Open Charities indicates the Eastcott Community Council (http://opencharities.org/charities/279487) hasn't filed any accounts for the last 6 years  ??
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 11, 2011, 09:03:03 AM
Did Chris approcah the Liberal councillors and ask them to assist him with his wi-fi questions right at the beginning and they fobbed him off?  If they did it now appears that they are reaping what they sow by their indifference. 

Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 11, 2011, 09:07:34 AM
The Website Jarvis refers us to is more than bare and begs the question is it as empty as the Liberals themselves and Ringer if my memory serves me correctly there was the usual amount of Liberal speak on Wi-fi but no questions of either substance or desire to gain information.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Muggins on April 11, 2011, 09:14:31 AM
It is ironic that in the picture Stan is holding a picture of Jiminy Cricket – he, who sang,

“Always let your conscience be your guide”
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Up The Crossing on April 11, 2011, 05:16:28 PM
What happened to the Eastcott Community Council which CooT mentions here ?

I've found [url]http://www.eastcottcc.btik.com/Home[/url] ([url]http://www.eastcottcc.btik.com/Home[/url]) but this site seems to be as empty of content as a liberal leaflet is of truth and Open Charities indicates the Eastcott Community Council ([url]http://opencharities.org/charities/279487[/url]) hasn't filed any accounts for the last 6 years  ??


I think the Eastcott Community Council on the Charities Commission website was disbanded and a new group set up a couple of years ago.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 11, 2011, 05:58:41 PM
I think the Eastcott Community Council on the Charities Commission website was disbanded and a new group set up a couple of years ago.


Do you mean the Queens Park Community Council (http://www.queens-park.co.uk/membership.html)?

Funnily enough, Stan Pajak just happens to be the chairman of the QPCC, it's latest newsletter (http://www.queens-park.co.uk/QPCCNewsletter0910.pdf) was edited by Stan Pajak and designed by Dave Wood.....

....which would explain it's striking similarity to Eastcott Lib Dem political leaflets  :wink:


A quick game of Waddingtons anyone?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 11, 2011, 07:34:32 PM
Good to see that the Queens Park Community Council meet at the Civic Offices
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: concerned_of_Old_Town on April 11, 2011, 09:35:50 PM
I get minutes to the Eastcott community meeting monthly minutes various subjects raised such as Dixon street steps, Rubbish collection, Savernake Park

The next meeting is this Tuesday 12th April from 7.00 Savernake Hall (as mentioned previously cannot do Tuesdays)

If anyone interested I can give you the contact details of the secretary so hopefully you can be added to d-list
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 11, 2011, 09:38:43 PM

To the Eastcott Community Council CooT?

Could you shed any light on how the ECC is constituted, what's its structure is, who runs it, whether it has a website and is still a charity etc?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: concerned_of_Old_Town on April 11, 2011, 09:54:44 PM
Geoff I have send you a pm with the e-mail of the Eastcott community council secretary.

I can't comment on structure etc as only went to one meeting approx 2 years ago!

Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Weebleman on April 12, 2011, 08:34:58 AM

To the Eastcott Community Council CooT?

Could you shed any light on how the ECC is constituted, what's its structure is, who runs it, whether it has a website and is still a charity etc?


Geoff,
They've got a facebook page here:
http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61341894467&v=wall&viewas=0 (http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61341894467&v=wall&viewas=0)
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 12, 2011, 09:01:01 AM

[url]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61341894467&v=wall&viewas=0[/url] ([url]http://www.facebook.com/group.php?gid=61341894467&v=wall&viewas=0[/url])


I see our very own Tobes contributes!
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 12, 2011, 04:17:15 PM
I see our very own Tobes contributes!

No surprise there though, Tobes is committed to, and very much involved with his community. Something the Eastcott Lib Dems lost no time in latching onto and exploiting for whatever political capital they could get.

Less than one month ago Tobes himself said:

Thank you for your eloquent and well considered responses Chris - much appreciated.

I have usually voted LibDem for my ward (though once I voted for Hughes of the Greens as he was the only one to bother door knocking to find out what I actually wanted as a resident!).

I have to say, I have become a little disillusioned with the Lib Dems. I had hoped to possibly stand as a Lib Dem for the ward at one stage  (and was indeed encouraged by party members to do so) - but not being part of the inner circle, it seems that whilst they were happy to use me in Focus and in several campaigns as an active resident, despite my interest, I was not considered (or even asked if I'd like to be considered) when Martin 'retired'. This means that Nicky Sewell, Dave Wood's partner, has been *selected* for the vacant slot. Make of that what you will. I hope she does a good job, as I guess her election would seem pretty much a foregone conclusion.

I'm not sure what this all means for the future and my political allegiances. I shall more than likely abstain from voting this year, as I don't really feel I'm being given a proper democratic choice: No conservative candidate and no core reason to vote for you Chris. Whilst I think Dave's actions are laudable enough, I'm not sure the Libs are dynamic enough of a force at council or media level to effect anything much - and I'm afraid I still feel personally disappointed not to have been given the chance to work for the ward.



'Laudable'.  Not a word which sits well with 'Eastcott' or 'Lib Dem'.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Drone on April 12, 2011, 05:27:20 PM
In case my earlier post wasn't clear enough, I'll reiterate: I bloody hate the Lib Dems. They conduct the worst and most dishonest politicking, while maintaining an air of insufferable smug superiority.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 14, 2011, 07:48:16 AM
In case my earlier post wasn't clear enough, I'll reiterate: I bloody hate the Lib Dems. They conduct the worst and most dishonest politicking, while maintaining an air of insufferable smug superiority.

Drone you are so subjective, actually  they are jolly green giants walking amongst the mere mortals of the political world and look down on the rest of us as nothing more than people who misunderstand their true intentions ::)

Personally for me Simon Hughes MP typifys their ilk.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Mart on April 14, 2011, 10:11:27 AM
I think that there is an alternative route.

I would campaign for a crossing in Clifton Street and a postbox in Kingshill thus catching political adversaries off guard. I'd fit a slide to the Dixon Street steps which I prefer to think of as the Stafford Street steps. Or a canal.

Another example of politics actually being bad for people.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: I Could Do That on April 14, 2011, 12:50:54 PM
A canal on Stafford steps?
That would be a cascade.
Perhaps we could incorporate Swindon's answer to Caen Hill Locks.
They could be made of cardboard and corrugated iron.
I've got a piece of left over pond liner to start the project/vision/sustainable feature
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 14, 2011, 04:53:10 PM
A canal on Stafford steps?
That would be a cascade.
Perhaps we could incorporate Swindon's answer to Caen Hill Locks.
They could be made of cardboard and corrugated iron.
I've got a piece of left over pond liner to start the project/vision/sustainable feature

A Pissoir-Plus :)
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Spectre on April 14, 2011, 05:22:00 PM
A canal on Stafford steps?
That would be a cascade.
Perhaps we could incorporate Swindon's answer to Caen Hill Locks.
They could be made of cardboard and corrugated iron.
I've got a piece of left over pond liner to start the project/vision/sustainable feature

A Pissoir-Plus :)


When I lived on Dixon St some 40+ years ago, that was the normal use for the steps Geoff.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 14, 2011, 06:14:26 PM
 
Oh dear. It seems that the Eastcott Lib Dems are at it again, spinning yarns and claiming credit for things they have no right to.  At this rate Stan & Dave will need a flock of Woodpeckers to peck their noses back down to size.

May take me a few days to corroborate and verify what I'm hearing but I don't doubt my sources.

In the meantime, if you live in Eastcott and want to let Swindon know anything in confidence, remember that you can use leaks@talkswindon.org to drop Swindon Lamplighters (http://www.talkswindon.org/lamplighters/lamplighters.htm) a line.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Drone on April 15, 2011, 06:53:15 AM
 :popcorn:
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 20, 2011, 02:34:19 PM
 
Yep, the Lib Dems have now put out their latest leaflet in Eastcott:

(http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2004%2018%20Lib%20Dem%20Nicky%20Sewell%20-%20Eastcott_thumbnail.jpg) (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2004%2018%20Lib%20Dem%20Nicky%20Sewell%20-%20Eastcott.pdf)

It looks to me like a desperate hodge-podge of half-truths & outright lies.

I don't want to make this too easy for observers   :wink: so I'll invite comments as to what, and where, the bullshits are on this leaflet before adding my 2p's worth.



Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: 20Eyes on April 20, 2011, 04:28:37 PM
Yep, the Lib Dems have now put out their latest leaflet in Eastcott:

One thing's for sure, there's a gem of a typo on the first/front page  ;D

Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Drone on April 20, 2011, 05:06:00 PM
(http://www.cbc.ca/arts/images/pics/league2.jpg)

This is a local election for local people! 10 mentions of the word 'local' by my count.

I do like Stan Pajak's comment: "I ask you to trust Icky Sewell" - no one available to spell check the leaflet before it went to print?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 20, 2011, 05:26:24 PM
I don't want to make this too easy for observers   :wink: so I'll invite comments as to what, and where, the bullshits are on this leaflet before adding my 2p's worth.



The gate? That cannot be any party held responsible it was a planning committee decision.
Quote
However the committee were advised by officers not to impose the gate on the application as it would result in a rejection of the proposed plans and the developers could pull out of the process.

Committee member Coun Martin Wiltshire (Lib Dem, Eastcott), said: “This is a very welcome development and comes after years of work. Although this it isn’t an ideal proposal it will greatly improve this area.”

 


Maybe the adver article is missing something?  It clearly states officers advice not to impose the gate and Cllr Dave Wood Martin wiltshire are quoted.
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8447600.Former_college_site_development_approved/ (http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8447600.Former_college_site_development_approved/)

It says Majority Vote on a not partisan committee. 13 to 1 and I am betting  that the 1 was not a Liberal councillor?   >:D
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: A Mole on April 20, 2011, 05:58:41 PM
Well the bit about dog fouling sounds like bullsh*t to me (no pun intended).  I have made several complaints to the Council about dog-fouling over the years and most recently had a discussion with the Head of the relevant department.  He told me - unequivocally - that the Council do not enforce dog fouling due to problems with the law and that they do not have the relevant powers to do so.  He said that this was most unlikely to change unless the law was reformed and that could take years.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 20, 2011, 07:09:11 PM
What I'm finding interesting about the campaign is that it features Stan in just about every photo, as though his endorsement might be an asset to the campaign - whereas perhaps the opposite is more likely these days.  ???

What exactly has Stan done for the residents in recent times? Its been noted and commented by many people in my part of the ward that he appears to have little or no engagement with residents. Photo opportunities for Focus aside, when was the last time anyone witnessed him out on the street canvassing support or opinion? Outside of ward issues, what has happened to the incisive voice of opposition to things like the proposed Coate development or WiFi? When he does make a rare local appearance, unfortunately he gives many people the impression of somewhat aloof disinterest. The cynics down the Beehive have nicknamed him 'Stan Pay-cheque'. Perhaps Stan is not an ideal poster boy anymore ('complacent' is a word I've heard several times). Regarding local action, it was Dave did the campaigning about the gate*. Dave and Nicky did the donkey work regarding the residents parking survey**. Consequently, Stan appearing in photos relating to those subjects might look mildly ridiculous to some.

Again, the campaigns rather clumsy avoidance of the locally obvious fact that Nicky is Dave's cohabiting other half isn't helpful either. I'm sure their position is that it shouldn't matter one way or the other what their relationship is - but that's actually precisely the point as to WHY it should have been acknowledged right from the off. To do be mealy mouthed and surreptitious about the issue will make them look naive in the eyes of many and as though they have something to hide. Its an obvious gift to the opposition.


* - Note, whilst I have decided not to stand as an independent (after being passed over for consideration by the Libs in favour of Nicky), I'll just record for prosperity here that the compromise idea of the gate at the college site was my idea. I'd also like it noted, that whilst the Lib Dems have made quite a lot of mileage regarding the proposal of the gate, it was I, as local resident who first spotted the issue of the new cut-through (after they had missed it - Martin was even on the planning committee at the time!). It was also I who started campaigning about it a full year before they did.
** Working back a few years, it was also I who started publicly campaigning regarding the proposed changes to residents parking. The topics and the coverage are all logged here on TS and on the original TS.TV report.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 20, 2011, 09:37:52 PM
Well well what an interesting leaflet!  Aren't the Liberals wonderful and extremely cuddly?

I know a few old dears who live on Kingshill who have been patiently talking to 'that very nice Councillor Pajak' about the Kingshill crossing and absolutely nothing has been done or more importantly is now not even expected to be done it has been going on so long.

So along comes Chris Watts who takes an interest in this issue and miraculously as if by magic it becomes a Liberal election promise 'action to change the way the council makes decisions on crossings.  Well you have had years to do this Stan so why should Greenhalgh take any notice of you now just because you promise it in a leaflet?

Finally if they can't even be bothered to proof read their leaflets and make two glaring mistakes should they be trusted to continue to handle the complex issues that are to be found in this ward? 

It is time for a change, pity you did not stand Tobes.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on April 20, 2011, 11:22:10 PM
Again, the campaigns rather clumsy avoidance of the locally obvious fact that Nicky is Dave's cohabiting other half isn't helpful either. I'm sure their position is that it shouldn't matter one way or the other what their relationship is - but that's actually precisely the point as to WHY it should have been acknowledged right from the off. To do be mealy mouthed and surreptitious about the issue will make them look naive in the eyes of many and as though they have something to hide. Its an obvious gift to the opposition.

I think it should be noted that Chris Watts hasn't sought to exploit the above.


* - Note, whilst I have decided not to stand as an independent (after being passed over for consideration by the Libs in favour of Nicky), I'll just record for prosperity here that the compromise idea of the gate at the college site was my idea. I'd also like it noted, that whilst the Lib Dems have made quite a lot of mileage regarding the proposal of the gate, it was I, as local resident who first spotted the issue of the new cut-through (after they had missed it - Martin was even on the planning committee at the time!). It was also I who started campaigning about it a full year before they did.

** Working back a few years, it was also I who started publicly campaigning regarding the proposed changes to residents parking. The topics and the coverage are all logged here on TS and on the original TS.TV report.


Yep. Tobes is absolutely correct on this.  The Eastcott 'Focus 'team' mislead residents when they claim credit for the above.  Similarly, Icky, Dave and Stan are claiming credit for removing expiry dates on residents parking visitors permits, but wasn't this actually achieved by the CP2 Central cluster group?


Well well what an interesting leaflet!  Aren't the Liberals wonderful and extremely cuddly?

Residents are beginning to see them for what they are: Politically dishonest magpies lazily feathering their nests with achievements and aspirations appropriated from others.




Finally if they can't even be bothered to proof read their leaflets and make two glaring mistakes should they be trusted to continue to handle the complex issues that are to be found in this ward? 


I reckon 'Icky Sewell' will stick.  That'll learn 'em.



It is time for a change, pity you did not stand Tobes.

2012 is the better year for Tobes to stand as an independent candidate and, should he do so, I think he would do very well.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Des Morgan on April 21, 2011, 08:36:38 AM
Quote
He told me - unequivocally - that the Council do not enforce dog fouling due to problems with the law and that they do not have the relevant powers to do so.  He said that this was most unlikely to change unless the law was reformed and that could take years

The Council has powers a plenty to take action against irresponsible owners who allow theire dogs to foul public spaces and refuse to clear uip the mess their pets leave.

Indeed in 2007. Coun Wren talking about dog fouling said: "We are going to target areas where there are concerns. The officers will be on the ground, they will be fully trained and looking at all aspects of enviro-crime. They will be walking the beat and they will be visible.'' Coun Peter Greenhalgh, also talking about dog fouling said: "I think it's a really positive step for Swindon, having people out there with the power to deal with these issues. The only questions to ask are where ‘the officers on the ground’ are and where are the ‘people out there’

What has changed since 2007?

We now have a supine Council who believe 'education' is more effective than 'enforcement' - sadly they can provide no proof to support such a view as they have not 'enforced' dog fouling by a single prosecution in the past 12 months.

As SCS is the newly appointed contractor responsible for clearing the bins it will be interesting to monitor their performance
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 21, 2011, 09:28:14 AM
What has changed since 2007?

Well we got Wi-fi and an award for it and its inception Des, what more could you possibly want?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Des Moffatt on April 21, 2011, 10:10:35 AM
Three years ago I produced a leaflet where I spelt Jim Grant’s name as Gant, our proof reader being unavailable to me she being on Mayoral duty.
When the media trained Tory opposition candidate got the entire leaflet reproduced in the Adver I was extremely distressed to start with. As the evening wore on and the canvassing returns were unaffected I realised that the Adver had done us a favour, they had reproduced the whole page of our leaflet on page three the text being clearly visible. By the end of the canvassing session I was chuckling quietly to myself. Kevin though it was funny too but we never did convince Jim. I still have that Adver page stuck on my office wall to reminding not to make that mistake again. Thanks Sue for keeping us right.
The element of their leaflet on dividing houses for multi occupation is completely wrong. When this relaxation of the planning rules was announced by the ConDem Government at my instigation some research was undertaken on the Labour Groups behalf. Meanwhile the association of Local Councils mounted a legal challenge to the change in defence of communities like Rodbourne and the Town centre. That decision has gone against us. There is another way we can seek to defend our communities but that depends on the Secretary of state accepting a designated area as being of special planning consideration. We intend to pursue that directly after the election. I have spoken to officers on this, no Liberal Democrat Councillor had spoken to them when I last spoke to the relevant officers.
Dog Fowling. To give that to the Traffic Wardens is quite wrong in law and in practice. Jim Grant and I put a resolution to full Council a couple of years ago to give the power of spot fines to the Police/Police Support Officers but the Tories voted it down without real consideration it seemed, going on at length about by-laws without coherence. Many Council’s have done just that, given the police powers to spot fine the owners who permit their dogs to fowl the pavement and not removing the excrement. Hopefully we can get some research done on how successful that approach has been and revisit the issue this summer.
This Liberal leaflet is not worth the paper it written on and Chris would be well advised to dismiss it as irrelevant to his electoral success. Devout Liberals will applaud it but others will see it for what it is, without substance. Its not as bad as one the Tories produced in Pinehurst though, it has to be seen to be believed. Everything the Ballamns fought for is claimed by the Tories including the Tories having funded the Academy.
Leaflet designers can be relied to continue to mistake good graphic design a substitute for truthful information.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 21, 2011, 04:51:21 PM
Quote
2012 is the better year for Tobes to stand as an independent candidate and, should he do so, I think he would do very well.

Thank you  :) Hopefully, AV may also serve to act to encourage more independents as well.

I'm keeping my options open, as I have always felt it important to stand in the ward in which I live. The option of playing the game of wasting time running as a paper candidate underling in distant wards for x number of years doesn't really interest me. As things stand, the Lib Dems still represent the party with which I have least ideological/personal disagreement (despite the national party managing the biggest piece of electoral betrayal in recent history regarding student fees). If I were to stand under any collective banner, they would still be my party of choice, at a local level at least. However, if there's no opening for me and as I was not even judged worthy to be judged against the other candidates (if indeed there was more than one), despite my open expression of interest, then no one should be surprised if I go it alone. Mark my words,if I do in 2012, it'll be with 100% effort).

Disgruntlement aside, I have to say, in the last couple of years, Dave seems to have been very approachable - and has picked up and run with everything either me or my neighbours have suggested. He certainly deserves his salary at least on the basis of being a pretty good local ward councillor, despite his apparent reticence to slug it out in the chamber. What I'm less clear on though is the 'club' politics which takes place back behind closed doors with the rest of the Lib Dems. The suspicion remains that private quid-pro-quo deals have been done between senior party members, rather than challenging some of the worst excesses of the current council administration. If so, it doesn't serve them, the citizens of Swindon - or even, ironically, the complacent conservatives (who ought to be being effectively and publicly challenged on a daily basis to show some intellectual and ethical rigour.) My recent experiences suggest the Libs are rather closer to the established scenarios within the labour and conservative groups: an aspirant must go through a long weaning process in which one has to prove party loyalty as the paramount measure before one might be considered worthy (or safe?) to act as a representative under the party banner. Again, I think this only goes to discredit the party political process, especially when we see how much expedient floor crossing goes on anyway. Party and manifesto allegiance for a councillor ought to be very very secondary to someone's passion and ability to deliver for the ward and reflect the interests of the residents. It seem insane to me that this system mitigates between 'ordinary' active campaigners and doers within a community: they are essentially ostracised from being an active participant in local politics as anything except an ordinary bi-annual voting citizen, placard waver or a make-weight on a petition. For me, the leaflet rather emphasises that point.

Lets see what happens. In terms of it being straight fight between Nicky and Chris, I think my withdrawal will make it a much less muddied issue. I have to say, Chris's main weapon would have been to refer to the wider issues which cause disappointment with SBC, as he hasn't found a core local issue to clobber the Libs. He's simply offering a change of face - and to be honest, I think you'll find the residents in Eascott will stick with what they know unless he has something genuinely new to offer or can demonstrate that he's done something for them. He hasn't done that to date. All he's doing otherwise is hoping that disillusionment with national politics will be reflected in the local vote. Thats not exactly a brilliant mandate for a local councillor in my opinion. His electoral strength would lie with his scrutiny of WiFi, the associated criticism of the conservatives and the arguable failure of the Libs to do their jobs in opposition. He's going to have to fight something of a negative campaign if he really wants to win. Although I hear an increasing amount about what a nice guy he is, the lack of clout, reason to change and his allegiance with another discredited party will probably do for his hopes. My prediction is for a close result with a reduced Lib majority - but with Ms Sewell just shading it.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 21, 2011, 05:40:29 PM
In the interests of balance, for all the criticism of the Libs, who's this walking with Ed Milliband?

(http://chriswatts1967.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/em1.jpg)

Yes - the same Ed Milliband who consistently voted for ID cards and 90 day detention without trial. The same Ed Milliband supports the retention of DNA profiles of people who were arrested but not convicted of a crime.

Personally, I'd question voting for a man prepared to accept political assistance from a totalitarian.

Eascott voters are proud to be tolerant, libertarian and liberal with a small 'L'. Labour demonstrated that they were anything but. I think it would be fair to question the political outlook of anyone who would choose to ally with them, let alone be seen with such a high profile supporter of some of the most pernicious social policies of recent history.
 :embarassed:

Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 21, 2011, 05:56:27 PM
Now Tobes I believe in the Candidate Locally not the party they represent, so if you want to be successfully elected yourself you must promote what you yourself stand for and use your highly individual personality.

I am sorry I do not agree with what you have said about Chris Watts, surely you would not condemn him for anything Milliband did or did not do nationally. 

It is about local issues things like Kingshill crossings and whether or not they can be delivered.  The fact is that very nice man Stan has had years and has not delivered things should enable Chris to have a fighting chance otherwise it is very much a case of more of the same please isn't it.  Maybe Chris can prove that Eastcott has in fact been missing out by having three Liberals who from this desk appear to do an awful lot of talking and do not appear to do much.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 21, 2011, 06:21:23 PM
Quote
Now Tobes I believe in the Candidate Locally not the party they represent

So do I. But then you and I BOTH must be at odds with what Chris believes then: Not only has he decided to ally with a national party of questionable morality (a difficult choice most local aspirants face, I guess), but that self-same national party has sent their most senior figure, no less a figure than the SHADOW LEADER to 'help' his campaign!!! What other sane conclusion can any voter draw? If Chris is really solely about local issues, then Milliband's presence would be an irrelevance and he would not have chosen to spent time together door knocking, would he?!

Quote
surely you would not condemn him for anything Milliband did or did not do nationally

Only if he used (and allowed himself to be used by) Milliband for local publicity. Which he has. So yes. I'm afraid I do. No one can preach localism and then ignore a candidate cosying up to one of the highest profile national politicians in the country and pretend that the perception in the minds of the voter will remain separate!

If you ally yourself with a party - and then choose to appear and go campaigning with a national leader who helped devise certain policies, no one can draw any other conclusion as to his support of the man and his policies, can they?  I mean, seriously!

The illiberal policies of what Labour tried to do are an indelible stain. Ed Milliband supported and voted for them. Chris is openly and publicly associating himself with that man and therefore, by association, his beliefs. That man is now supporting Chris and Chris is accepting that support. People will (and should) judge that for what it says.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Drone on April 21, 2011, 06:32:25 PM
Can we hold Icky Sewell responsible for the actions of Nick Clegg, then?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 21, 2011, 06:48:21 PM
Quote
Can we hold Icky Sewell responsible for the actions of Nick Clegg, then?

If she's been out door knocking with him and putting pictures of her and him up on her blog, you'd be perfectly - and obviously - entitled to draw the conclusion that she was associating herself with the man and his policies, would you not? (why else would she be doing it?)

Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: 20Eyes on April 21, 2011, 08:18:43 PM
In the interests of balance, for all the criticism of the Libs, who's this walking with Ed Milliband?

([url]http://chriswatts1967.files.wordpress.com/2011/04/em1.jpg[/url])

Yes - the same Ed Milliband who consistently voted for ID cards and 90 day detention without trial. The same Ed Milliband supports the retention of DNA profiles of people who were arrested but not convicted of a crime.

Personally, I'd question voting for a man prepared to accept political assistance from a totalitarian.

Eascott voters are proud to be tolerant, libertarian and liberal with a small 'L'. Labour demonstrated that they were anything but. I think it would be fair to question the political outlook of anyone who would choose to ally with them, let alone be seen with such a high profile supporter of some of the most pernicious social policies of recent history.
 :embarassed:


Good post, Tobes. Points well made. Tolerance and liberalism seems in short supply these days.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 21, 2011, 09:05:23 PM
I believe that up until Wi-fi that Chris was like me, just a member of the public.

We both asked questions to which answers were not forthcoming and so spoke to the then MP Anne Snelgrove who listened to these concerns.  I, incidentally, saw Anne before Chris.  Many people in this Swindon believe, because of past actions,I am a Tory.  Yes, I was a lifelong Conservative, but purely on the basis on which they have behaved on Wi-fi and other money wasting issues I no longer support them. 

Chris, I believe like me felt that his concerns meant something and to which answers should be given.  For my part whilst I am truly independent of mind I must admit that I find the Labour Party attitude quite refreshing.  You are allowed to dissent and are not blackballed just because you disagree with them.  You just have to look at what has happened to disaffected Tories to see what they can be like.  This greatly troubles me because at the end of the day we all are a group of individuals who want the best for themselves their families, their roads, their area their town and their country.  It is called aspiration.

I truly think, although stand to be corrected, that Chris found in the Labour Party people who would actually listen, care what he thought and were prepared to help him achieve his aspirations.

The Labour Party happens to be led by Ed Milliband.  So what, I know die in the wool Labour people who would like to impeach and prosecute Tony Blair.  It doesn't mean that all Labour people are guilty by association, does it?

At the end of the day in a politician there is no ideal candidate they are all flawed in some way or another so you must cast your vote on what you perceive as the 'Lesser of the Evils.'  Not to vote or saying you are 'Not interested' means you have absolutely no right to complain when things, in your opinion, go wrong.

And finally I am not a member of the Labour Party Vera, although like Steve Wakefield feel that the Tories left me not the other way around.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 21, 2011, 09:40:53 PM
Richard

Sorry if it sounds a bit Mc Carthay

Have you ever been a member of the Labour Party?

Who is Vera?  Is she a member of the Labour party? 
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 21, 2011, 10:31:16 PM
I agree with pretty much everything you say, up to a point. But I'd be aware and beware that Chris risks being manipulated by a party which has lost any meaningful compass except a hunger to regain lost power (and as a result, any real differentiator between itself and the others - other than to do the obvious and hypocritical sniping regarding the cuts which any party in opposition would do ).

Quote
The Labour Party happens to be led by Ed Milliband.  So what, I know die in the wool Labour people who would like to impeach and prosecute Tony Blair.  It doesn't mean that all Labour people are guilty by association, does it?

No. But Milliband is not some snot nosed new MP - or a minor party figure. So what? He is the man who wrote their 2010 manifesto. He is a man who voted consistently in favour of carrying forward the party's most pernicious policies and was a leading cabinet member from 2007.

Snelgrove was almost universally perceived round these parts as a completely f*cking useless MP until she picked up on WiFi and became an ally to those pursuing the SBC tories. Now as 'welcome' as her self-serving attention might have turned out to be (though really, WAS it in the final analysis?) her stumblingly inarticulate performance in the commons to an audience half a dozen disinterested MPs looked pretty dire to me. Surely we can't have forgotten that she did it off the back of totally ignoring important and valid concerns from her constituents regarding a whole host of other issues? Her vapid responses up until she latched onto WiFi were curt, frequently bordered on rude and eventually became non-existent. That was the period when this forum was dismissed as 'a hotbed of tory activists'. (20 Eyes, you reading this?) Funny how short memories are!

Snelgrove 'listened' selectively and toed the party line like a good political careerist. That doesn't demonstrate an MP or a party political philosophy to be endorsed - it shows naked expedience. Instead of defending her own party's discredited polices or (heaven forfend) engaging with her electorate and maybe even seeking to change party policy, she stuck her head in the sand until gifted with something to attack the opposition. Too little, too incompetently handled, too late. Swindon rightly gave her the boot.

I can understand malcontent with the local tory group as a motivation to stand - but the problems we have with them that we can influence at council level are local too - that makes such an overt and public association with a national Labour party figure all the more tainting. What Milliband and his brethren tried to do in their last parliament was deeply, deeply unethical and morally reprehensible. We're not talking about a mere hiccup or an individual mistake of judgement - we're talking about a deep-seated philosophical contempt for the freedoms of this country's citizens. Personally, I don't draw any distinction between what nearly came to pass  on ID cards, NIR, 90 day detention and the DNA database and the mindset which put the Nazi party into power. Consequently, I find myself having a similar reaction to Chris's public and publicised hob-nobbing with Milliband as I would if Nicky Sewell had blogged about door-stepping round Eastcott with Vidkun Quisling.

Quote
Chris found in the Labour Party people who would actually listen, care what he thought and were prepared to help him achieve his aspirations.

And why do we think that is?! The Labour party 'are listening' (today, at least) because they think that through WiFi, they have a local candidate in Chris who might have the ammo to hurt the tories and because of dissatisfaction at the national level, the potential opportunity to unseat the Libs . But by choosing to put him alongside Milliband they have deliberately sought focus attention away from local issues and the performance of the local candidates - it reads to an old PR like me as an overt and deliberate move designed to get people to vote according to national disillusionment.

I suspect a party as bankrupt of support as post-election Labour would take and encourage whatever interest they could get - and flatter those offering it as far as they could. But it is still the same party. No doubt Chris is starting on the same path as many other well meaning politicians. However, when you sup with the Devil, it is best you use a long spoon rather than tour your ward with him, lest people get a whiff of sulphur.

Quote
At the end of the day in a politician there is no ideal candidate they are all flawed in some way or another so you must cast your vote on what you perceive as the 'Lesser of the Evils.'

That I can handle as a concept but with an important proviso - it would be acceptable if you were talking about the individual politician acting independently. But after having witnessed the corrupting and warping influence of party loyalty over what the individual believes is best for his/her electorate, I cannot.

For example, if you gave me a choice between voting for a communist party, or the BNP, I'd abstain and seek to create a change by influencing public opinion and encourage a reasonable candidate to stand. Voting for 'the lesser of those two evils would legitimise a far greater evil by giving the winner a false mandate.

Chris might seem more credible if people could believe that despite his party rosette, he was still his own man. However, his endorsement by the absolute head of the Labour party will hardly make that seem credible, will it?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Mellon on April 21, 2011, 10:37:52 PM
Interesting post, we shall find out in May. O0
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 21, 2011, 11:17:57 PM
Mellon

I like the new avatar  :o
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 21, 2011, 11:25:10 PM
Richard

Sorry if it sounds a bit Mc Carthay

Have you ever been a member of the Labour Party?

Who is Vera?  Is she a member of the Labour party?

No I am not a Labour Party Member

and Vera is the one and only Vera Tomlinson, who I believe in a former life was a member of the Labour Party
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 21, 2011, 11:32:42 PM
Tobes, I believe that Chris Watts to be a man of principle and individuality.  You can hardly say that of the Tories, gathering as they do before every meeting and being whipped by our Vera to toe the line.

And so you either want more of the same in Stan oh so cuddly Pajak and co or you do actually want to try something different.

If I am wrong about Chris Watts and I fervently believe I am not you can always remove him in twelve months time.

A vote for the Liberals is one for more of the same Tories and I am sure you don't want that or do you?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 22, 2011, 02:43:16 AM
Quote
And so you either want more of the same in Stan oh so cuddly Pajak and co or you do actually want to try something different.

I've already criticised the Libs  :wink: - so I'm not naive about their failings - but that said, name me a meaningful difference in policy? I couldn't spot one on Chris's manifesto. Again, the real decider is likely to be how people turn national disillusionment into local votes. Labour have obviously realised this - and it's why they trotted out Milliband. However, that's a slight of hand which may prove counter productive in a ward where people might be sophisticated enough to vote according to local issues - and where people have no particular reason to reject Nicky (it's she who's standing remember, NOT Stan).

Quote
A vote for the Liberals is one for more of the same Tories and I am sure you don't want that or do you?

Pfffft. If I had been given the chance to stand as a candidate for the Libs - I would have been at pains to use the council chamber to be a lot more combative in order to expose them to proper scrutiny on the public record and subject them to some proper criticism.  I think I would have been pretty bloody good at it too :( . Ho hum

But before we carry on shoe-ing the Libs, lets not forget that Labour are still dominated by the less than eloquent likes of Small and Monty - who also happen to be senior members of the party. Neither can have been judged to be effective scrutineers or challengers of the ruling party either. And recent history also shows that, at a local level, Labour were capable of making a financial and strategic balls up which somehow still manages to exceed even the worst excesses of the current incumbents!

I'd like to see tory complacency and the 'boys club' of the cabinet reigned in (and a few of the old school pin stripers and farts fall on their swords). An elected Mayor might actually save them from their inevitable doom, if only they were intelligent enough to realise it. No way would I like to see a Labour majority until the party has worked out what its philosophy or message is aside from a trite 'cuts are bad and we'll try and gloss over what the party tried to do over the last 12 years'. I also suspect that whatever new blood they brought in would soon be subsumed by the party system and the self interest and cliquiness which always seems to follow.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 22, 2011, 08:11:04 AM
Vote according to local issues in a local election I wonder if  the Ukippers are listening?

In the April 18th leaflet in TS library from Eastcott. From memory I recall that there are 13 photographs the candidate appears in 7 and Stan appears in 6 of those 7 with the candidate. I think by my reckoning the old 8 out of 10 cats rule applies. Anyone care to do the percentages?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: 20Eyes on April 22, 2011, 08:21:11 AM
(20 Eyes, you reading this?)

Yes. Your last few posts on this thread have been nothing short of brilliant. Whether or not you'll read this is another question entirely.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: I Could Do That on April 22, 2011, 09:06:58 AM
Hi Tobes. How was America?

"But before we carry on shoe-ing the Libs, lets not forget that Labour are still dominated by the less than eloquent likes of Small and Monty - who also happen to be senior members of the party. Neither can have been judged to be effective scrutineers or challengers of the ruling party either. And recent history also shows that, at a local level, Labour were capable of making a financial and strategic balls up which somehow still manages to exceed even the worst excesses of the current incumbents!"

Have to agree with your points, about Monty and Small. I regard them as no more than "Punch & Judy" politicians.
At present I am content with the way Bob Wright has represented us, but do not wish to vote for Monty.
We are yet to recieve any info on the LibDem Central candidate.
What happens to Bob if I don't vote Labour / Monty ?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 22, 2011, 09:31:23 AM
I believe that the above postings prove that Confidence in an Individual in Local Politics is far more important than any national party to which the candidate happens to belong.

As an intelligent man, Tobes, who has been critical of the people representing his core beliefs why not try someone else in the form of Chris Watts.  To vote Icky just because she is a liberal make you the very thing of which you are so critical?

You can always throw out Chris in twelve months time if he doesn't deliver or do you want to keep moaning about your erstwhile friends, the Liberals, who talk about everything but from where I am sitting actually achieve little.

We get the Representation we Deserve
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Tobes on April 23, 2011, 11:18:54 AM
Quote
Tobes, I believe that Chris Watts to be a man of principle and individuality.

Having now had the chance to meet and share a pint or two with the man - I have to agree with you. It's just a huge shame he decided to hang his coat on the Labour peg.

Quote
To vote Icky just because she is a liberal make you the very thing of which you are so critical?

I don't think I've stated anywhere yet where my vote is going, have I?  :wink: That said, even though we are talking about local issues, I still have a problem with a party which tried to destroy core civil liberties. Don't you?

Quote
do you want to keep moaning about your erstwhile friends, the Liberals, who talk about everything but from where I am sitting actually achieve little.

I generally try to leave the partisan moaning to the more qualified personnel on the TS rosta of political sock-puppets. It leaves me free to criticise any party and any politico when and where I think its deserved.  Dave in particular has been a good local councillor. Stan appears to have done little recently, Martin is stepping down, Harrison - well, we all know about him, don't we!? - and Nicky is an unknown quantity (though has a profile locally). As most of the voters won't ever see this thread, they are also likely to take many of the disputed aspects of the leaflet at face value.

I suspect Labour gave Chris this seat imagining that he'd be little more than a paper candidate. A good close fight would be good for the ward. If Chris wins and goes on to prove himself a man of principal and individuality, the party might have cause to later regret their choice, eh?
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat tan Pajak Plays Bleating Politics
Post by: Ringer on April 27, 2011, 06:39:35 AM
Has anyone got a copy of the latest missive from the Eastcott Icky Sewell who is bleating that if she does not join the  focus team it will be broken up by a candidate who you only ever see at election time.. is that Artin Wiltshire? Ave Wood will be really lost if Icky is not elected he will have to knock around with Ndy and Rev.

I have not got a copy, but it was all the talk in the chippy as  supper was being cooked.

It is bad form for an Andidate  to beg for votes and the Ibdems are stooping reaching the levels of every time you vote Tory an Itten dies
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on April 27, 2011, 10:14:42 AM
I spent some time yesterday afternoon seeing some elderly ladies in Eastcott and was surprised what a difference a few weeks makes.

That awfully nice Councillor Pajak seems to have overdone it a bit with no less than three letters through the door.  What did you do with them I enquired?  They went straight in the bin was the answer. 

The Kingshill crossing is the issue and they now believe the Liberals have not being doing anything about it but at least Chris Watts is trying to do so.  The damage is done and it now doesn't matter how many focus' the Liberals produce they have actually lost credibility, because it is now appreciated that talk does not equal deeds.

Keep up the good work Chris you can make a difference and there should be more people standing who are like you.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Mart on April 27, 2011, 07:55:32 PM
In the interests of balance, for all the criticism of the Libs, who's this walking with Ed Milliband?

Hich ne s Illiband?

Every time I see Icky in print in makes me giggle like a girly, Iinger's last post made I larf!

Perhaps Hris is a master manipulator and is cynically using D for his own ends and those of his prospective ward, it'd would be a pragmatic move until he was rumbled, he could them move on to Ave or Ick.

Giggling again.
Title: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 09, 2011, 10:32:44 PM
Sorry for my absence from TS for some time.  Most of the time it's just been Icky and I doing the election fighting this time (oh what I'd give for a Labour rent-a-mob!) so I've been a little pre-occupied.  But I've taken a little time to acquaint myself with the comings and goings on here, now.

The broad theme seems to be the Lib Dems being called liars.  Which is demonstrably false.

A number of non-partisan residents stopped me in the street in the last month and asked me why we weren't "setting the record straight" on these "lies".  One even pleading with us to do so.  Despite what may have been said elsewhere on here, the residents of Eastcott make their own minds up. They do research, they keep track of pledges, they keep copies of leaflets, they hold us to account and enough of them attend key meetings.

They knew the claims of the Labour leaflets and various online outlets were nonsense.  They wanted to know why we weren't hammering Labour with them.  I asked them to trust us and hoped the community would, too.  And they did.  And the community did (well, at least the same number that previously have).

During an election campaign wasn't the time to set the record straight.  Now is.  Well, not now.  As soon as I get the time I will be back.

To those residents of Eastcott who gave valid constructive criticism on TS over the last month: thank you.  Any group of people can always do better, especially part-time councillors.  I have been collecting these points and will raise them at a group meeting in the next week.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 09, 2011, 10:36:44 PM
I've heard there's something strange in the neighbourhood.......(Couldn't resist)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 09, 2011, 10:38:11 PM
I've heard there's something strange in the neighbourhood.......(Couldn't resist)

I've been satirised by national political journals on this subject, so I'm not going to mind the odd side-comment here  :wink:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 09, 2011, 10:41:07 PM
Got to laugh though, I'd be very interested to hear what happens at the meeting, is it open invitation or is it eastcott residents only? If it is just residents will you guys be keeping notes?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 09, 2011, 10:42:41 PM
Got to laugh though, I'd be very interested to hear what happens at the meeting, is it open invitation or is it eastcott residents only? If it is just residents will you guys be keeping notes?

Sorry, by group meeting I meant 'Council Group Meeting'.  Each party on the council has regular meetings of its councillors.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 09, 2011, 10:45:39 PM
Oh right that's a shame, I'd thought it would be a residents meeting, never mind just another quick question, why make it publicly known your setting the record straight when its only going to be discussed with council members?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 09, 2011, 10:47:56 PM
Oh right that's a shame, I'd thought it would be a residents meeting, never mind just another quick question, why make it publicly known your setting the record straight when its only going to be discussed with council members?

Sorry, my wording problems again!

The Truth - will be posted on here.

The Feedback - will be taken to the council group.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 09, 2011, 10:50:50 PM
Ah ok, thanks for clearing that up, be interesting to see what's in it!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 10, 2011, 06:44:43 AM
Sorry for my absence from TS for some time.  Most of the time it's just been Icky and I doing the election fighting this time (oh what I'd give for a Labour rent-a-mob!) so I've been a little pre-occupied.  But I've taken a little time to acquaint myself with the comings and goings on here, now.

The broad theme seems to be the Lib Dems being called liars.  Which is demonstrably false.

A number of non-partisan residents stopped me in the street in the last month and asked me why we weren't "setting the record straight" on these "lies".  One even pleading with us to do so.  Despite what may have been said elsewhere on here, the residents of Eastcott make their own minds up. They do research, they keep track of pledges, they keep copies of leaflets, they hold us to account and enough of them attend key meetings.

They knew the claims of the Labour leaflets and various online outlets were nonsense.  They wanted to know why we weren't hammering Labour with them.  I asked them to trust us and hoped the community would, too.  And they did.  And the community did (well, at least the same number that previously have).

During an election campaign wasn't the time to set the record straight.  Now is.  Well, not now.  As soon as I get the time I will be back.

To those residents of Eastcott who gave valid constructive criticism on TS over the last month: thank you.  Any group of people can always do better, especially part-time councillors.  I have been collecting these points and will raise them at a group meeting in the next week.



The above reads like another focus leaflet Dave :)

I'm tickled by the idea that Swindon's 5 Lib Dems are going to hold a group meeting to agree what the 'truth' is, before any of them will discuss it publicly.  I'm certainly looking forward to learning why Cllr Pajak recently denied he'd ever he'd made comments about Wattsy in Eastcott Lib Dem election leaflets.

If we're going to have a electoral post-mortem for Eastcott could we start with the basics of establishing who said x, y and z?  There's no doubt what I authored (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=7435.0), obvious what Chris Watts distributed, but we have yet to learn who wrote the Liberal Democrat Focus leaflets which Cllr's Wood (http://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=926&J=2) and Sewell (http://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgUserInfo.aspx?UID=1576&J=2) distributed in Eastcott?


Incidentally Dave, why does Cllr Sewll's SBC contact page show a Bowood Close address, whereas your page shows C/o the Civic offices? - are you no longer cohabiting or are you worried Eastcott residents will assume yours is a house of multiple occupation?

As I've previously noted in the Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=7435.msg57354#msg57354) thread:


.....'ward councillor' present at this meeting was none other than Nicky's boyfriend - Cllr Dave Wood.   Their relationship is never mentioned in lib dem leaflets, which shouldn't be an issue in itself, except that they seem to go to particular trouble to omit ever mentioning it in their printed literature or on the doorstep and, readers of Lib Dem leaflets will notice, how Nicky is described varies between leaflets - sometimes she is Nicky Sewell Chair of KARA and sometimes Nicky Sewell is a 'Local campaigner' - it all depends what 'image' they hope to project to residents.  Just to be clear here though,  Nicky Sewell is the Chair of KARA and her boyfriend is Cllr Dave Wood


Why do you take pains to avoid being associated with her?


:popcorn:





Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Tobes on May 10, 2011, 07:39:45 AM
I have to say Dave, I think that was a mistake. Its much better to be up-front and utterly clear about such issues, otherwise surely people are going to be suspicious about apparent subterfuge? What was the rationale for taking that appraoch?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Outoftowner on May 10, 2011, 08:11:07 AM
Quote for Geoff:
Quote
I'm tickled by the idea that Swindon's 5 Lib Dems are going to hold a group meeting to agree what the 'truth' is, before any of them will discuss it publicly. 
;D  ;D

The "truth" will be worth waiting for. Now where's my dual-party Perkian calendar?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 10, 2011, 08:28:07 AM
This seems like an ill-advised move. Whatever the 'truth' may be, it won't be accepted or believed by those who wish not to, which will mean just about everyone you're trying to convince otherwise.

The LibDems did very well in Eastcott, comfortably seeing off the Labour challenge and bucking the national trend. Now is the time to sit back, enjoy the success and get on with the job - not to wade in and inevitably end up achieving the opposite of what you hope to.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 10, 2011, 08:33:29 AM

I meant 4 Lib Dems.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Drone on May 10, 2011, 08:41:13 AM

I meant 4 Lib Dems.

Clickety-click.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Des Moffatt on May 10, 2011, 08:57:48 AM
Cllr Woods need to have a care in what he publishes purporting to be the truth.
Chris Watts checked his facts with me and others before publishing.
I was there as was Kevin Small, not only do we remember; we know where to find the evidence. Don’t just take Stan’s word for it Dave or rely on a collective false memory, we actually know. I really don’t think you are a liar Dave but you like any of us can unwittingly tell lies. All politicians spin the story to put ourselves in the best light. The trouble comes when we start believing our own spin.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 10, 2011, 09:01:19 AM

Cllr Woods need to have a care in what he publishes purporting to be the truth.

Chris Watts checked his facts with me and others before publishing.

I was there as was Kevin Small, not only do we remember; we know where to find the evidence. Don’t just take Stan’s word for it Dave or rely on a collective false memory, we actually know. I really don’t think you are a liar Dave but you like any of us can unwittingly tell lies. All politicians spin the story to put ourselves in the best light. The trouble comes when we start believing our own spin.

Is Cllr Woods the author of the Eastcott focus leaflets then Des ?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 10, 2011, 10:49:28 AM
I'm tickled by the idea that Swindon's 5 Lib Dems are going to hold a group meeting to agree what the 'truth' is, before any of them will discuss it publicly.

As my posts make clear the truth will be posted here as soon as I've written it.  Nothing to do with group.

I have to say Dave, I think that was a mistake. Its much better to be up-front and utterly clear about such issues, otherwise surely people are going to be suspicious about apparent subterfuge? What was the rationale for taking that appraoch?

As said above, I'm not taking the truth to anyone before posting it here.

Cllr Woods need to have a care in what he publishes purporting to be the truth.
Chris Watts checked his facts with me and others before publishing.
I was there as was Kevin Small, not only do we remember; we know where to find the evidence. Don’t just take Stan’s word for it Dave or rely on a collective false memory, we actually know. I really don’t think you are a liar Dave but you like any of us can unwittingly tell lies. All politicians spin the story to put ourselves in the best light. The trouble comes when we start believing our own spin.

Now this is interesting.  So you and Cllr Small are the source of this?

Do you take responsibly for what Labour leaflets and websites printed?

Do you also take responsibility for what Labour supporters like Geoff have written in their articles?

If so, this changes everything.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 10, 2011, 10:51:01 AM
If so, this changes everything.

Eh? How so? The truth can only ever be the truth. Nothing changes it.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 10, 2011, 11:12:35 AM
Do you take responsibly for what Labour leaflets and websites printed?

Do you also take responsibility for what Labour supporters like Geoff have written in their articles?

If so, this changes everything.

Changes nothing.  The truth is a fairly robust thing and, despite recent attempts by the focus team to distort it badly, it remains inconveniently and stubbornly robust.


That looks like Dave's flirting with making implicit challenges/potential legal threats so, if we're going to be discussing sources and editorial responsibility we'll be needing to invite the past editors of the Swindon Advertiser, the Standards Board for England, other still serving councillors and Father Leslie Pinfield*

By the way, who authored your focus leaflets Dave, and who is going to take responsibility for what was written within them? - Cllr Pajak is already denying he made some of the comments published within them....


*Unless he's currently enjoying breakfast dinner and tea with Jesus.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Des Moffatt on May 10, 2011, 12:29:10 PM
Yes Dave I do stand by what has been published.
We have a system of approval by agents and while not personally aware of most publications, those carrying our P&P I have complete faith in them.
I have never met Geoff Reid nor talked to him on the phone, I need to put that right me thinks. Since I have been aware of TS I have not noted any time that Geoff Reid has got it factually wrong. Indeed it was his take on a publication over Kevin Small’s name about four years ago that make us tighten up on the agent signing off all publications.
It now an open secret that Kevin did not himself write or approve the thing but had to take the lumps anyway. Something similar happened to Stan did it not? Seems to me that your lot did not learn the lesson.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: the gorgon on May 10, 2011, 12:36:21 PM
 Time to get some :popcorn: me thinks, this could get interesting!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 10, 2011, 12:50:34 PM
Quote
Time to get some :popcorn: me thinks, this could get interesting!

Agreed!

Whoever wrote the leaflets may just have brought even more dis-credit to the Lib Dems! (After the national thing)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Outoftowner on May 10, 2011, 12:59:20 PM
  :fence: :popcorn:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 10, 2011, 01:19:13 PM
By the way, who authored your focus leaflets Dave, and who is going to take responsibility for what was written within them? - Cllr Pajak is already denying he made some of the comments published within them....

I've no idea what you're talking about with regards to Stan denying quotes, and without the context I can't really say much.

If, for example, Stan was asked if he mentioned the Labour candidate by name in leaflets he did not.  I'm not aware of the candidate being mentioned by name.  In fact I think very few political leaflets mention opponents by name.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 10, 2011, 01:22:38 PM
Yes Dave I do stand by what has been published.
We have a system of approval by agents and while not personally aware of most publications, those carrying our P&P I have complete faith in them.
I have never met Geoff Reid nor talked to him on the phone, I need to put that right me thinks. Since I have been aware of TS I have not noted any time that Geoff Reid has got it factually wrong. Indeed it was his take on a publication over Kevin Small’s name about four years ago that make us tighten up on the agent signing off all publications.
It now an open secret that Kevin did not himself write or approve the thing but had to take the lumps anyway. Something similar happened to Stan did it not? Seems to me that your lot did not learn the lesson.

There's a difference between 'standing by' what someone says, between 'not seeing inaccuracies' and 'taking responsibility'.

I'm aware of your agent sign-off system of responsibility, but I'm also aware that neither yourself nor Kevin Small were agent for Eastcott. 

So 'standing by' but not 'taking responsibility'.  It seems this point is now clear.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 10, 2011, 01:25:16 PM
Taking a leaf out of Roddy and Perkins book of political subterfuge glossary It's all open to interpretation.  :2funny:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 10, 2011, 02:19:02 PM

By the way, who authored your focus leaflets Dave, and who is going to take responsibility for what was written within them? - Cllr Pajak is already denying he made some of the comments published within them....

I've no idea what you're talking about with regards to Stan denying quotes, and without the context I can't really say much.

If, for example, Stan was asked if he mentioned the Labour candidate by name in leaflets he did not.  I'm not aware of the candidate being mentioned by name.  In fact I think very few political leaflets mention opponents by name.


1. It's a simple enough question: Who authored this years focus leaflets in Eastcott ?

2. How many Labour candidates stood in Eastcott in the 2011 local election and what was his name?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Des Morgan on May 10, 2011, 02:29:20 PM
Quote
I'm tickled by the idea that Swindon's 5 4 Lib Dems are going to hold a group meeting



Perhaps they could hold it at the Queens Park Cafe, four chirs, under a parasol with tea and Victoria sponge - delightful :coffee:

Oh and it shouldn't be a long meeting  O0
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bobby Bingo on May 10, 2011, 03:30:27 PM
You have the location completely wrong Des. They intend to meet on the island in the middle of the lake because they believe they can walk across the water to it. At least if you believed their leaflets you wopuld think so.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 10, 2011, 03:30:44 PM
Since I have been aware of TS I have not noted any time that Geoff Reid has got it factually wrong. Indeed it was his take on a publication over Kevin Small’s name about four years ago that make us tighten up on the agent signing off all publications.
It now an open secret that Kevin did not himself write or approve the thing but had to take the lumps anyway. Something similar happened to Stan did it not? Seems to me that your lot did not learn the lesson.


I have made errors in the past but have always been happy to correct/remove them as appropriate.  I don't think they have been great in number though.

The curious thing about the 2008 labour letter Des refers to, (one which directly led to the Chair of scrutiny debacle - that's a subject for a different thread), is that much of what the letter generally referred to now appears to be uncannily accurate - read it and judge for yourself:

(http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2008%2003%2000%20Labour%20Walcot%20letter.jpg) (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2008%2003%2000%20Labour%20Walcot%20letter.pdf)

Back to Stan Pajak though, I made enquiries with SBC, the Standards Board for England and the Swindon Advertiser regarding both the electoral behaviour of Michael Dickinson and Stan Pajak and the leaflets they produced.  Using three major sources of information plus other oral interviews left me in no doubt that a significant number of lies were employed at the time, and afterwards, as people tried to protect their 'reputations'.  Using a Priest as a human shield was pretty low imho.

Des Moffat is right I think, the Eastcott Lib Dems didn't learn the lessons of the Leslie Pinfield affair and their modus operandi appears unchanged.  Cllr Wood arrived her yesterday promising to tell the truth, (but not just yet), yet has done very little apart from evade answering even the simplest of questions as he guides TS readers towards enlightenment.     
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 10, 2011, 03:33:23 PM
This is how I think it will go down.....black robes, Cleggtanic pendants, black candles and an eastcott resident to sacrifice and then call upon the quill pen ghosts to re-write history once more.

(I think I have too much time on my hands)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Muggins on May 10, 2011, 03:56:20 PM
The letter made my blood run cold - 2008, aye, well it's coming and coming big time!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: concerned_of_Old_Town on May 10, 2011, 05:13:10 PM
Can someone put a link to the offending liberal and labour leaflets so that I as an Eastcott resident can re-read them?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Outoftowner on May 10, 2011, 05:54:13 PM
Here you are Concerned:

http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=7184.0 (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=7184.0)


Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 10, 2011, 07:28:24 PM
Cllr Wood arrived her yesterday promising to tell the truth, (but not just yet), yet has done very little apart from evade answering even the simplest of questions as he guides TS readers towards enlightenment.   

The TS Dodo award is it dead?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 10, 2011, 09:27:10 PM

By the way, who authored your focus leaflets Dave, and who is going to take responsibility for what was written within them? - Cllr Pajak is already denying he made some of the comments published within them....

I've no idea what you're talking about with regards to Stan denying quotes, and without the context I can't really say much.

If, for example, Stan was asked if he mentioned the Labour candidate by name in leaflets he did not.  I'm not aware of the candidate being mentioned by name.  In fact I think very few political leaflets mention opponents by name.


1. It's a simple enough question: Who authored this years focus leaflets in Eastcott ?

2. How many Labour candidates stood in Eastcott in the 2011 local election and what was his name?

With the greatest respect I am not here to answer every question from every non-resident who is actively supporting the other side. 

The reason for this is that I don't intend to become embroiled in endless Lib Dem bashing by Labour supporters.  I have finite time and have to invest it wisely for my residents.

I will state the truth on the accusations put forwards because I owe it to residents that read this board.  I will clarify where needed, and then I'll be putting this subject to rest.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 10, 2011, 09:37:48 PM
It'll make absolutely no difference what you say, Dave. It concerns me that you appear not to be astute enough to realise that.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 10, 2011, 09:49:14 PM
You answered my questions alright last night and I'm (apparently) a labour supporter, why the sudden change of heart? And furthermore how will you be putting this subject to rest? That's what the tories said about Wifi Scrutiny dave......hmmm will have to see what yer truths gonna be like, I suppose
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 10, 2011, 10:45:17 PM
I will state the truth on the accusations put forwards because I owe it to residents that read this board.  I will clarify where needed, and then I'll be putting this subject to rest.

I don't think anyone has the final word on any thread on TS. The posting may end, but the thread remains.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 10, 2011, 10:55:08 PM


I
I will state the truth on the accusations put forwards because I owe it to residents that read this board.  I will clarify where needed, and then I'll be putting this subject to rest.

I don't think anyone has the final word on any thread on TS. The posting may end, but the thread remains.  :popcorn:

I've decided not to chase dave over my questions, I think I'm going to wait until he posts his truth and then compare it with the facts and then I may pass comment if I can find the time
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 11, 2011, 03:27:53 AM
It'll make absolutely no difference what you say, Dave. It concerns me that you appear not to be astute enough to realise that.


If Cllr Wood comes clean and genuinely tells the truth it will make a lot of difference.  Unfortunately for him there is a fairly substantial amount of publicly available evidence which will make his counter version of the 'truth' quite difficult to prove.

I'm really looking forward to reading, what promises to be, a veritable masterpiece from Cllr Wood.  To aid his recollection I've reproduced my blog post below:



Blogged Here: http://www.geoffreid.com/?p=1050 (http://www.geoffreid.com/?p=1050)

(http://www.geoffreid.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/04/Stan_Pajak_lib_dem_pinnochio.png)

We're just a few weeks away from the 2011 local elections in Swindon and, as usual, the political rhetoric between opposing candidates is making for some interesting reading but,  unlike previous years, Swindon's residents can keep themselves better informed of the various claims and counter claims being made by election candidates via Talkswindon's Political Leaflet Library (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?board=238.0).

What I find particularly useful about having so many of Swindon's political leaflets easily accessible in one place is the ability to read what's been claimed by one candidate or councillor and then wander around the internet looking for evidence which either backs up or contradicts the claim.  With modern search engines, freedom of information services and easier-than-ever access to council officers getting at the truth gets easier, and quicker, all the time.  Which is why I find it so surprising that some politicians are still prepared to lie with impunity. Perhaps they think their lies won't be noticed, or if they are, no one will investigate and comment on them.

Although there are Borough-wide incidents of political-porkies being told by all parties, one Swindon ward in particular is being subjected to a concentrated bombardment of political lies.  Eastcott Ward.  The last bastion of the Liberal Democrat Party in Swindon.

Eastcott ward has long been known as the Liberal Democrat stronghold in Swindon and, until recently, the 3 Eastcott seats in the Council Chamber were considered so 'safe' that other parties fielded  'paper candidates' (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paper_candidate) in Eastcott at elections.  Outside of Eastcott ward Swindon's Lib Dems hold only one other council seat - Andy Harrison in Penhill ward.   Eastcott's current crop of Lib Dem councillors are: Cllr Dave Wood, Cllr Martin Wiltshire and Cllr Stand Pajak.  Cllr Wiltshire is standing down this May but we'll return to the Lib Dems choice of replacement candidate later in the blog.

I spend some time talking to residents of Eastcott and although it is true to say that many of the people I've spoken to said that they felt the Lib Dems have been 'doing a good job' and that they felt well represented, when questioned as to why they believed that to be the case, and asked if they had any personal experience of the Lib Dems doing something for them, almost all of them said that they thought it to be true based on what the Lib Dems themselves had been telling them via leaflets and doorstep canvassing.

But what would Eastcott residents think if they were to learn that the Lib Dems haven't been exactly honest with them on their own doorsteps, have lied deliberately in their leaflets and even, (in at least one instance I can identify),  lied about who they are in an attempt to 'knobble' a rival candidate?  If the Eastcott Lib Dems 'reputation' within the ward, and records of 'delivery' for the ward are as good as they claim, why do they feel the need resort to such shitty tactics and what does it say about their moral compasses once they have done so?

I think 'Political Fear' of Chris Watts, this years Labour candidate for Eastcott, is one reason the Lib Dems have lied and another would be:  'This is how we've always done things'.  Neither of these is easy to prove to a sceptical readership, but I'll spit out a few easy-to-verify tit-bits and readers will be able to draw their own conclusions from them.

So lets start with Chris Watts:  Chris first 'appeared' on Swindon's political radar in late 2009 when he put his analytical mind and determined temperament to good use scrutinising Swindon's now infamous 'Wifi' scheme.  It is no exaggeration to say that Chris's investigative efforts exposed several serving Borough Councillors as abject and habitual liars,  uncovered systemic incompetence at Directorship levels within the Borough Council and last, but definitely not least, that his own Liberal Democrat ward Councillors, were nowhere near as good at representing their residents as they say they were.  Chris didn't go out of his way to make the Lib Dems look bad, it just became obvious in passing that they were really not as good as they look in their own leaflets.

A bitter-sweet day arrived for the Eastcott Lib Dems in  2010 when Chris announced he had joined the labour party.  Bitter for the Lib Dems in that they realised that Chris, an Eastcott resident of 14 years, was no longer just a well informed and well intentioned member of the public intent on exposing and talking about various public issues, but now seemed likely to take the next step towards seeking a mandate from his fellow residents to represent them formally in council.  Sweet for the Lib Dems in that they could now begin 'officially' attacking and undermining the person that had, just by doing what they should of been doing, exposed them as ineffectual by comparison.  For the first time, the publicity suits worn by Eastcotts three 'Emperors' were seen for what they are - transparent.

Having decided that he might run stand for election to Swindon Borough Council, Chris turned his attention to several long running issues within Eastcott ward, and a couple more which are of concern to the entire town (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/2011/01/16/fairfares4swindon-com-launched/), and it didn't take long before the observational skills he'd honed scrutinising wifi detected that things in Eastcott were often not quite, if at all, as the Lib Dems described them and, even more surprising to him,  it quickly became apparent that the Lib Dems, worried that Chris might succeed where they have so long failed to make any progress, had begun saying things about Chris which were, and are, demonstrably untrue.

One instance of Eastcott's Lib Dems promoting a deliberate lie is the curious case of the 2nd Kingshill Crossing (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/kingshill-road-2nd-crossing-lib-dem-fantasy/).   Cllr's Pajak and Woods have long used the prospect of a 2nd pedestrian crossing on Kingshill Road as a convenient campaigning device.  They know that, (as things stand now), the case for a second crossing on Kingshill Road is thin - in fact it was rejected again by the Council cabinet (http://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=24237&J=1) as recently as 2009 - but that did not stop Cllr Woods giving residents false-hope, (and the impression he was actually doing something useful), by asking them to sign his petition during his election campaign which, once he had been elected,  didn't seem to be submitted to the council. In fact I've never heard of it again.

Later, when it became apparent to them that Chris Watts was also having a realistic and holistic look at the chronology and geography of the 2nd Kingshill Crossing, the Lib Dems realised that Kingshill residents were about to learn that, despite 13 years of Liberal Democrat campaign 'noise' on the issue, they had nothing to show for it apart from 3 very polished seats in the council chamber.  Urgent action would be needed to limit the potential damage to Eastcotts lib dems and, by copying what the Conservatives do elsewhere in Swindon,  they quickly formed KARA, the Kingshill Residents Association (http://karaswindon.wordpress.com), thus moving themselves expediently away from the specific issue of the 2nd Kingshill Road crossing and stealthily trying to widen their political influence within the community.

KARA was created in September 2010 and its 'About' page (http://karaswindon.wordpress.com/about/), written by Nicky Sewell, chair of the Association,  says:


Quote
In August 2010 a group of a dozen residents met together to  discuss the possibility of forming a Residents’ Association to represent  the Kingshill area in Swindon. At that meeting we talked about an  organisation that can campaign and lobby on behalf of local residents,  an organisation that can strive to enhance local community cohesion and  an organisation made up of neighbours who care about the Kingshill area  and want to make it an even better area in which to live. Following that  meeting, we leafleted local streets and held a meeting at the Clifton  Inn (thank you!) in September where we formally adopted our constitution  and elected our Committee and Road Representatives. It was suggested at  that meeting that we should expand to include Radnor Street, Shelley  Street and Fairview and they were adopted into KARA – welcome! At that  meeting was a representative from Swindon Borough Council, a local ward  Councillor, Neighbourhood Watch Co-ordinator and members of the  Neighbourhood Policing Team. Around 40 local residents attended and  raised issues effecting them at a very local level. We look forward to  KARA growing bigger and stronger and really making a difference for the  local Kingshill area. Thank you for your ongoing support and we look  forward to working with you!

Nicky Sewell, Chair



The ward councillor present at this meeting was none other than Nicky's boyfriend - Cllr Dave Wood.   Their relationship is never mentioned in lib dem leaflets, which shouldn't be an issue in itself, except that they seem to go to particular trouble to omit ever mentioning it in their printed literature or on the doorstep and, readers of Lib Dem leaflets will notice, how Nicky is described varies between leaflets - sometimes she is Nicky Sewell Chair of KARA and sometimes Nicky Sewell is a 'Local campaigner' - it all depends what 'image' they hope to project to residents.  Just to be clear here though,  Nicky Sewell is the Chair of KARA and her boyfriend is Cllr Dave Wood, who also happens to be the vice chair of KARA.

This is all well and good I hear some readers say, 'but when are we going to get to the lies?' - so here they are.  Once the Eastcott Lib Dems had set up KARA, they turned their attention to dealing with Cllr Martin Wiltshire's decision to step down from council, and who might replace him.  It didn't come as any real surprise when Cllr Stan Pajak introduced (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2001%2010%20Lib%20Dem%20Stan%20Pajak%20Eastcott.pdf) Nicky Sewell, Cllr Wood's girlfriend and Chair of the newly formed KARA as the Lib Dem 2011 candidate for Eastcott, and the first lie we're going to discuss wasn't long in coming .

Two months after Stan Pajak introduced Nicky Sewell as the Lib Dem candidate for Eastcott she appeared alongside him in a glossy A3 leaflet but is oddly referred to as "Local campaigner Nicky Sewell".  There is no mention that she is the Chair of KARA, presumably because as chair of KARA she would be expected to know that the following statement made in this, her introductory leaflet, was a deliberate lie:


Quote from: Cllr Stan Pajak
"You always know when there is an  election coming up when Swindon Labour start coming to the door.  Normally  they harmlessly copy the FOCUS Team’s issues, but this time they nearly  wrecked the campaign for a second Kingshill crossing".  Cllr Stan Pajak said:   “Labour’s candidate went in like a bull in a china shop and likely made  the Council dig its heels in, undoing months of influence and  persuasion. We must not let Labour’s party politics point scoring wreck the  Crossing Campaign for another generation.”



A freedom of information request to Gwillam Lloyd (http://www.whatdotheyknow.com/request/kingshill_crossing#incoming-159704) (Head of Highway Management at Swindon Borough Council), confirmed that Councillor Pajak was telling Eastcott residents something that was demonstrably untrue.  Mr. Ceri Stephens, Performance Officer at Environment Regeneration & Community of Swindon Borough Council said:

Quote from: Ceri Stephens
"I can confirm that we can find no evidence of any correspondence or other communication with Christopher Watts on either the topic of Kingshill Crossing or any other topic"



In addition to publishing bare faced bullshit and confirming to residents that he had been running the Kingshill Crossing 'campaign' for an awfully long time with no result, (13 years), Cllr Pajak compounded his gaffe by accusing Chris Watt's of  "party politics point scoring".   I think the only point scored here was the own-goal scored by Stan when he decided that publishing a lie was preferable to telling the truth.  Perhaps he thought he could just explain it away if challenged or, as he's done at least once before, try to divert blame for his own untrue statements onto his intended target.  Stan has 'previous' for this, and the public record shows that even when a priest objected to something Stan claimed about him in a May 2003 election ,  Stan simply implied that the priest was lying.

At the time the Swindon Advertiser reported:

Quote from: The Swindon Advertiser
In the Liberal Democrat publication, Focus, Coun Dickinson, who was  elected as a Central ward councillor on May 1, used a picture of St  Luke's Parish Priest Father Leslie Pinfield under the   headline "I'm backing Michael".

The publicity material quoted the priest praising the work of Coun  Dickinson in the fight to clean up prostitution in the area. Father  Pinfield denies saying this. But because Coun Dickinson was   only a candidate at the time when the material was distributed, his  agent is being held responsible.

Les Horn, chairman of Broad Street Community Council, was so amazed at what he read that he wrote a letter to Father Pinfield.

Part of the priest's reply read: "We did indeed have a discussion  about the problem of prostitution in the neighbourhood, as I have done  with many other people of all political persuasions. I am  afraid that the rest of it is made up."

But Coun Pajak said: "This is not something that worries me. I believe  Father Leslie said what he did we met him on the corner of the street  and he sanctioned Michael.

"This is nothing untoward it's just the interpretation and the fact we won the seat.

"As far as I'm concerned there is nothing to worry about because people are making a mountain out of a molehill."



Stan may not be worried by a mere trifle like the truth, but even a molehill will occasionally trip the daintiest of fork-tongued political tap-dancers.

Almost inevitably though, we must now take a quick look at what Cllr Dave Wood, Nicky Sewell's boyfriend and Vice Chairman of KARA, has been up to as he tries to hide his girlfriends election campaign activities, or lack of them, from the scrutiny of Chris Watts.   It seems that late in 2010 the issue of replacing the long-gone post box in the wall of the long-gone Old Post Office in Clifton Street was raised by a Kingshill resident at a KARA meeting.

Oddly, (or maybe it's only odd if you don't already know who is pulling the strings at KARA), the subject of the Clifton Street Post Box then featured prominently in an Eastcott Liberal Democrat leaflet in which they claimed credit for lobbying the Royal Mail to have the post box re-instated.   On the basis of this leaflet Eastcott residents were left in little doubt that the Lib Dems were already 'fighting hard against tiers of institutionalised bureaucracy' at the Royal Mail to make it happen.  Unfortunately, it seems that the Lib Dems hadn't bothered to actually bother contacting the Royal Mail (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2002%2001%20Labour%20Eastcott%20Matters.pdf) and the Royal Mail therefore remained, (until Chris Watts contacted their Collections Delivery Manager to find out how the re-instatement was progressing), blissfully unaware that the issue even existed.

Political translation: The issue of the Clifton Street Post Box was being treated as a handy one for the Eastcott Lib Dems to whip out just prior to local elections, but was then to be left, unresolved, until it became electorally useful again.  Just like the 13 year old Kingshill Crossing Campaign.

Residents of Clifton Street might have faced a similar decade+ of 'campaigning' had Chris Watts not begun a phone and email conversation with the Royal Mail Collections Performance Manager in Reading and genuinely got the ball rolling and, in early March 2011, Chris received the following message from the Royal Mail:


Quote
Chris,

I  have had a call from Dave Ward who tells me he works from Swindon  Borough Council and have arranged to meet him at the site Monday at  10:00. You are welcome to come along if you wish.

Regards



Chris was pleased to announce in a leaflet (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2005%20Labour%20Eastcott%20Matters.pdf) that he had been invited to a site meeting in Clifton Street with the Collections manager and a 'representative' from Swindon Borough Council to discuss the re-instatement of the post box, but the good news was soon eclipsed by bad.

Chris then received another email from the Royal Mail which cancelled the site visit.  He telephoned the collections manager and discovered that 'Mr Ward' was actually Councillor Dave Wood who had, after reading a copy of Chris Watt's leaflet, contacted the Royal Mail manager and put the verbal boot into her, suggesting forcefully that she had nothing to do with Chris Watts because, "as the Labour candidate for Eastcott,  his interest was purely political".   I believe that Cllr Woods, even at this stage of the game and whilst expending  considerable effort in denouncing Chris Watts for being an election candidate, still omitted to mention that he was a serving Liberal Democrat Councillor for Eastcott.  Bad boy Dave.

Thanks to Cllr Woods party political masquerade, the site meeting remains cancelled, and the issue of the Clifton Street Post Box is, for the time being, dead in the water.   Royal Mail managers are notoriously wary of becoming embroiled in politic scandal, (for good reason), and when politicians start lying about who they are to get one up on each other,  then a scandal is not going to be far behind.

In summary then, residents of Eastcott might wish to ask any Lib Dems who knock on their door prior to next months local elections the following questions:

Why is Kingshill Road still without a 2nd pedestrian crossing after 13 years of Lib Dem campaigning?

Why haven't the Eastcott Lib Dems come clean about who runs KARA?

If Eastcott's Lib Dems are so sure of their electoral support within the ward, why do they feel the need to lie about Chris Watts in their leaflets?

Why did Lib Dem Cllr Dave Woods make the Royal Manager believe that he worked from Swindon Council but chose not to tell her that he was actually an Eastcott Lib Dem Councillor?

What happened to the 200 signature '2nd Kingshill Crossing' petition Cllr Wood was promoting during his 2009 election campaign? - it seems that it was never deposited with or presented to the Borough Council after Cllr Woods was re-elected.



Personally, I would not reward a candidate with my vote if I knew, or thought that they had lied to me.  Neither would I do so if I thought their colleagues had lied for their joint electoral benefit and I take particular exception to political lies being pushed through my letterbox and repeated to my face on my doorstep.  I expect many residents of Eastcott might well feel the same way which is why I'm happy to spend a Sunday evening sharing my knowledge with them.

Having got to know Chris Watts a little whilst scrutinising the wifi, I know he is honest, thorough and determined.  I have little doubt that he will do exactly what it says on the tin if given the chance and Eastcott would be well served by him if it chooses to elect him.

Having observed Eastcotts Lib Dems in action, through the media and the public record I find increasing amounts of evidence, (some of it even authored by them), which suggests that they're nowhere near as good as they say they are and that their moral compass points towards 'selfish' instead of 'selfless'.  I'm of the opinion that a Lib Dem pledge in Eastcott is as trustworthy as one from their leader, Nick Clegg, and their claim that they are "Not in a coalition locally but are able to influence" is risible but, changing the position of just one word makes this phrase: "In a coalition locally but are not able to influence" - more believable.

I am not surprised that Eastcotts Lib Dems are terrified of residents getting a proper look at Chris Watts in action, because they might decide that they want a couple more just like him.

Make your own minds up.  Have a look at Chris's 600+ postings on the www.talkswindon.org forum (http://www.talkswindon.org), see what his own blog (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com) says and learn how he's approaching the 2nd Kingshill Crossing issue on the Kingshill Area Road Safety Campaign (http://karscam.wordpress.com/) website.

Whatever you do though,  please don't just take a liberal Democrats word at face value.   Remember that these are exactly the same people who thought it was okay to tell lies about St  Luke's Parish Priest Father Leslie Pinfield and then call him a liar when he challenged what they'd said about him...

...so, if you feel inclined to believe what Eastcott Lib Dems say about Chris Watts, why not ask Chris directly so you can hear his answer for yourself.

It's your vote, and you're entitled to use it with a clear conscience.




And finally, Questions Cllr Woods is, or will be avoiding answering. I expect this list to grow longer by the day, but readers might like to amuse themselves by researching the answers for themselves:


1. Who authored this years focus leaflets in Eastcott ?

2. How many Labour candidates stood in Eastcott in the 2011 local election and what were their names?

3. At what Eastcott address is Cllr Woods registered to vote?

4. At what Eastcott address is Cllr Sewell registered to vote?

5. Why does Cllr Woods SBC Councillors contact details page list his address as 'C/o Civic Offices'?

6. Does Cllr Sewell claim a single person discount on her council tax bill?

7. Why has Cllr Pajak now denied making comments about Chris Watts (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2001%20Lib%20Dems%20Eastcott.pdf), sorry...'The Labour Candidate' in lib dem focus leaflets?

8. In what year was the liberal democrat party formed?


Cllr Woods has indicated he won't answer questions put to him by a 'labour supporter', but I doubt he'd answer them openly if asked by Conservative or Lib Dem 'supporters', so I wondered if TS members & readers might wish to amuse themselves and do so on his behalf :)

Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 11, 2011, 08:03:14 AM
If Cllr Wood comes clean and genuinely tells the truth it will make a lot of difference.

Cllr Wood's version of the 'truth' will only be considered to be the truth if others agree with it, which, clearly, they won't.

It is pointless him saying anything and, as I said before, I think his judgement is lacking by not only proposing to do so, but by making such a fanfare about it. Just one week after a significant victory at the elections, the LibDem group is about to take a needless step-backwards here at TS.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 11, 2011, 09:15:10 AM
6. Does Cllr Sewell claim a single person discount on her council tax bill

The answer to that would also depend on in whose name the property is registered in Freehold/leashold/tenanted and who is the person registered/responsible for paying the council tax?  More  :popcorn: anyone?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 11, 2011, 10:27:59 AM
It'll make absolutely no difference what you say, Dave. It concerns me that you appear not to be astute enough to realise that.

It won't make a difference to the Labour supporters posting on this thread, but as they often remind us there is a slightly wider readership to which it matters.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 11, 2011, 10:32:50 AM
You answered my questions alright last night and I'm (apparently) a labour supporter, why the sudden change of heart? And furthermore how will you be putting this subject to rest? That's what the tories said about Wifi Scrutiny dave......hmmm will have to see what yer truths gonna be like, I suppose

You were being non-partisan and asking for clarification, which I was more than happy to do.  If you note my last post I'm still more than happy to clarify points.

I will put the subject to rest in the following respect.  I've no doubt that the response to setting the record straight will be to divert the argument in different directions - in fact Geoff is already doing this - but I don't expect I'll be engaging in that for it's own sake.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DarkAuror on May 11, 2011, 11:38:48 AM
You answered my questions alright last night and I'm (apparently) a labour supporter, why the sudden change of heart? And furthermore how will you be putting this subject to rest? That's what the tories said about Wifi Scrutiny dave......hmmm will have to see what yer truths gonna be like, I suppose

You were being non-partisan and asking for clarification, which I was more than happy to do.  If you note my last post I'm still more than happy to clarify points.

I will put the subject to rest in the following respect.  I've no doubt that the response to setting the record straight will be to divert the argument in different directions - in fact Geoff is already doing this - but I don't expect I'll be engaging in that for it's own sake.


 ??? :-\ Sorry, I'm confused, I thought the OP was going to post the truth/facts about the ward election. Is this now not the case? Or is what other posters posted the truth??  ??? :-\
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 11, 2011, 11:43:20 AM
??? :-\ Sorry, I'm confused, I thought the OP was going to post the truth/facts about the ward election. Is this now not the case? Or is what other posters posted the truth??  ??? :-\

It's not confusing. We're just going to be presented with various versions of the 'truth', with each party claiming their version is the right one and the other versions are not.

What Dave Wood does not appear to realise is that he's not playing on a level playing field. Whatever 'truth' he posts is not going to be accepted unless he openly agrees that the LibDems are liars which, I'd wager, is unlikely.

This forum seems to have been stung by the fact that the Labour man didn't unseat the LibDems in Eastcott last week. Anything the LibDems say about it is going to backfire, regardless of what is, or isn't, the 'truth'.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 11, 2011, 12:05:11 PM
What's the OP?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DarkAuror on May 11, 2011, 12:18:22 PM
What's the OP?

Original Poster
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Outoftowner on May 11, 2011, 12:19:35 PM
As I understand the post "quill-pen" jargon, Mellon, the OP is the "Original Poster", i.e. the person who started the thread, in this case Dave Wood, who said that he would reveal the, "Truth about Eastcott 2011" in these words:

Quote
During an election campaign wasn't the time to set the record straight.  Now is.  Well, not now.  As soon as I get the time I will be back.

So we are now waiting for Dave to "get the time". :coffee:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Nicola Hart on May 11, 2011, 12:44:58 PM
.........and waiting, and waiting  ??? Not so much a case of Dave Wood but Dave Wouldn't.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Richard Symonds on May 11, 2011, 12:45:47 PM
I Hope that Dave Wood will answer ever one of Geoff's questions point by point, otherwise all of us who want to see 'fair play' will fear the worse!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 11, 2011, 01:34:22 PM
Thanks DarkAuror and OutofTowner
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Outoftowner on May 11, 2011, 03:53:54 PM
No sweat Mellon. I may be an "Oldie" but I manage to keep up with some of the terminology.

Personaly I am very interested in this thread because I usually vote Lid Dem ( I did not say I AM Lib Dem..it's just that the other options are often too horiffic to contemplate. I can vividly remember being seen off by both major parties in the past! Plus they have both been involved in major corruption scandals at one time or another.)

I'm afraid that I, as a Lib Dem voter, am convinced by the data published on TS and it will take a lot of detail, backed by facts, for someone to convince me that the truth about Eastcott has not already been told, right here.

Please carry out your own investigation Dave, mull over the facts as you then see them and, forgetting any party alliegiance, tell us what you then think happened.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: MsD Meanor on May 11, 2011, 05:44:17 PM
Mr Wood seems to have been "hoist by his own petard" - I feel  doubtful that we'll see Geoff's points answered directly and honestly.  :popcorn:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Drone on May 11, 2011, 05:47:13 PM
Dave's usually a fairly decent chap, so I hope he takes a deep breath and gives us the honest truth on this one. I for one don't feel particularly vindictive towards the Swindon Lib Dems (although I do hate the national party) but I do feel they are far too comfortable using slightly dodgy electioneering tactics. A bit of honesty would go down well here.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 12, 2011, 08:35:04 AM


I've no idea what you're talking about with regards to Stan denying quotes, and without the context I can't really say much.

If, for example, Stan was asked if he mentioned the Labour candidate by name in leaflets he did not.  I'm not aware of the candidate being mentioned by name.  In fact I think very few political leaflets mention opponents by name.

Is that because the Labour Candidate has taken out a super injunction against the Eastcott Libdems?  :2funny:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 12, 2011, 08:45:54 AM

One might wonder why Councillor Wood has not yet published a rebuttal on the Swindon Liberal Democrat Blog.  As far as I'm able to tell, the Swindon Lib Dem blog is still available to 'invited readers only' (invisible to the rest of us), so he might have already published something, but we can't see it.


I will put the subject to rest in the following respect.  I've no doubt that the response to setting the record straight will be to divert the argument in different directions - in fact Geoff is already doing this - but I don't expect I'll be engaging in that for it's own sake.

Diverting what argument?, thus far Councillor Wood arrived on TS promising to 'tell the truth' and 'put the subject to rest' about several lies published in Swindon Liberal Democrat election material I discussed in the above blog post, but has offered nothing apart from excuses and reasons for not doing as he promised.

It's quite natural that supplementary questions will present themselves as we look closer at the political shenanigans in Eastcott. I have no desire to divert the yet-to-materialise argument away from its natural direction of travel.....

....but Councillor Wood will first need to climb aboard the topic he started before we can get going.


??? :-\ Sorry, I'm confused, I thought the OP [original poster] was going to post the truth/facts about the ward election. Is this now not the case? Or is what other posters posted the truth??  ??? :-\


Readers will make their own minds up as to what to believe after considering how credible each poster is, what evidence each publishes to corroborate what they say and whether that evidence will stand up to serious scrutiny.

At present the public know exactly what Chris Watts has said, and how it was said.  They know exactly what I have said, and how and where I have said it.  Cllr Wood is still refusing to confirm who authored the Liberal Democrat election leaflets which I and Chris Watts have commented on.

As a starting point for beginning an open and transparent discussion it seems entirely fair to me that all the authors involved are clearly identified.


Anything the LibDems say about it is going to backfire, regardless of what is, or isn't, the 'truth'.

This is a serious discussion containing the potential for serious legal consequences, as 20 Eye's seems to recognise.  A Liberal Democrat 'Backfire' seems inevitable when their leader, Cllr Stan Pajak, is directly quoted in a lib dem leaflet making an [untrue] allegation about Chris Watts, but when later challenged Cllr Pajak denies ever making that comment.  This is just for starters.


Two authors are already present willing and able.   The third author remains anonymous, and Cllr Wood appears evasive and reluctant to identify him, her or them. 


The evidence is ready to be presented and the public is waiting patiently in the gallery.   Councillor Wood has promised to tell the truth and put the subject to rest but has yet to appear at the inquest.   

Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 12, 2011, 08:54:54 AM
Btw:

It'll make absolutely no difference what you say, Dave. It concerns me that you appear not to be astute enough to realise that.

It won't make a difference to the Labour supporters posting on this thread, but as they often remind us there is a slightly wider readership to which it matters.


Just to put his comment into proper perspective, on May the 6th 2011 a total of 4,710 different individuals visited Talkswindon, cumulatively viewing 13,000 pages*


I suppose if nearly 5,000 people can be described as 'slight', what would a corresponding term for 130 voters be?


20 Says:

Quote
This forum seems to have been stung by the fact that the Labour man didn't unseat the LibDems in Eastcott last week

Another anonymous and sweeping generalisation on behalf of other forum members. I doubt any individuals on this forum have been 'stung' by the electoral defeat of Chris Watts' although it's likely, (in my own opinion of course), that over the coming months many Eastcott residents will become increasingly disappointed with Cllr Sewell's electoral 'success' and what she, and her colleagues, were prepared to do and say to attain it.

Time will tell.


** Intend to have this comment and any associated 'off topic' replies into teh Eastcott election thread later.  Don't want Cllr Wood to accuse me of 'diverting' his topic away from the still-to-materialise argument he's promised.

 


 
*Search engines are not included in those figures.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 12, 2011, 09:38:02 AM
20 Says:

Quote
This forum seems to have been stung by the fact that the Labour man didn't unseat the LibDems in Eastcott last week

Another anonymous and sweeping generalisation on behalf of other forum members. I doubt any individuals on this forum have been 'stung' by the electoral defeat of Chris Watts'

Hmm, not so sure. There were several people here (none who actually lived in Eastcott AFAIK) that were very vocally behind Chris Watts' campaign in Eastcott - I'm sure they don't require naming - and I suspect the massacre of the LibDems nationally was hoped to have been reflected in Eastcott. I read numerous posts here congratulating various Labour candidates on their results; don't recall seeinf any congratulating the LibDem candidate or any of the Tories who also held their seats (despite the fact that, yet again, the Tories polled more votes than Labour in the town).

Indeed, the TS push to discredit any and all LibDem candidates prior to last week's election was quite impressive in its depth and consistency.

I tend to believe that an awful lot of hopes were invested in Mr Watts - for many reasons. There's no harm in admitting disappointment that he lost. Indeed, had Labour managed to win in Eastcott, I'd have no qualms at all in admitting it'd have 'stung' me.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 13, 2011, 10:32:44 AM

Hmm, not so sure. There were several people here (none who actually lived in Eastcott AFAIK) that were very vocally behind Chris Watts' campaign in Eastcott - I'm sure they don't require naming - and I suspect the massacre of the LibDems nationally was hoped to have been reflected in Eastcott. I read numerous posts here congratulating various Labour candidates on their results; don't recall seeinf any congratulating the LibDem candidate or any of the Tories who also held their seats (despite the fact that, yet again, the Tories polled more votes than Labour in the town).

Given that almost all 59 elected members of Swindon Borough Council take part in Chamber debates, sit on committees, take decisions and vote on issues which affect every inhabitant of the Borough, non-residents of electoral wards, (especially council tax paying ones), have every right to support, campaign for and against whoever they choose.

Again: Did 20 Eyes start a congratulatory thread for anyone, or is he again criticising others for not doing something he hasn't done himself?

Indeed, the TS push to discredit any and all LibDem candidates prior to last week's election was quite impressive in its depth and consistency.

The first part of the above sentence is clearly wrong and is better suited to a lib dem leaflet than a forum with an intelligent readership.  There was no 'TS Push to discredit any and all Lib Dem candidates'.  What happened, and is continuing to happen, is that a very small number of TS members, (me included), scrutinised and passed comment on an even smaller number of Liberal Democrats.  I'm not even sure that any liberal democrat candidates were subjected to any significant amount of scrutiny/criticism/comment.

Perhaps 20 Eyes would like to substantiate his claim by providing a comprehensive list of Liberal Democrat candidates he feels were subjected to the 'TS Push' he alludes to?  I don't think he will be able to.


I tend to believe that an awful lot of hopes were invested in Mr Watts - for many reasons. There's no harm in admitting disappointment that he lost. Indeed, had Labour managed to win in Eastcott, I'd have no qualms at all in admitting it'd have 'stung' me.

I was disappointed that Chris Watts didn't win in 2011, but that is a very different thing than feeling 'stung'.  The campaign expectations of Chris Watts, Steve Wakefield and Neil Heavens were realistic and proved accurate.  Each is almost exactly where they expected to be in the 2011 elections and, with the 2012 elections looming they've no reason to be gloomy.

Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Nicola Hart on May 13, 2011, 11:43:22 AM
Chris was so close to taking Eastcott in his first year as a candidate. I could not believe the Lib Dems stayed in with their disgraceful tactics and dishonesty.

Due to Chris, Clifton Street would have their post box. This was until the Lib Dems caught wind of Chris'good work and stuck a big political spanner in there. Lib Dems promising everything for years and delivering diddley squat.

Chris will get things done and Eastcott residents will really get to know him in the coming year.

We're still waiting Dave. Have you had enough time to think up some good replies yet?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 13, 2011, 03:36:33 PM
Perhaps 20 Eyes would like to substantiate his claim by providing a comprehensive list of Liberal Democrat candidates he feels were subjected to the 'TS Push' he alludes to?  I don't think he will be able to.

While I realise there's absolutely no point entering into this, several people (who actually live and vote in Eastcott) remarked to me how there'd been an air of hostility towards the LibDems in Eastcott at this site. It'll be denied, it always is, but that really matters little when the effect of what's being posted is to make some feel there was a concerted effort to discredit the LiBDems in Eastcott - mainly by targetting Stan Pajak and then a strange fascination with the living arrangements of Wood and Sewell. Does anyone really think that people in Eastcott aren't aware of the two councillors' relationship?  :-\

Most people I know in Eastcott did continue to vote LibDem, in no small part due to the feeling that the Labour candidate, and their acolytes, had run a rather negative campaign in general. As I felt myself, others also mentioned they'd have likely voted for Mr Watts had he run independently.

I really don't know why people spend hours posting in an attempt to unseat a candidate, and replace them with their favoured candidate, only to then cry wolf and claim it never happened. What's the point? It's there for all to see.

With regards to starting a congratulatory thread, there's no point me doing it. I'd be accused of 'trolling' and that would be the end of that. I do find it odd that with so many Tory winners - and so many Tory votes - that not a single post was made in support of those victories or councillors. I mean, they can only win if more people vote for them than vote for any other single candidate, so either they have a lot of support in Swindon or the challengers are disliked even more. Either way, nobody's expressing those views here at TS. Does nobody find that just a little strange?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 13, 2011, 04:36:13 PM
Daves late (not pregnant 'late' but the normal late).

Councillor Woods, has the record been straightened?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 14, 2011, 06:59:45 PM
I was a little curious when this thread started  I asked myself was it started as  a Libdem political smear tactic?  No I concluded I did not think that was its aim. I concluded it was due to the priority of campaigning and after victory, now was the opportunity for the Libdems to want the truth about Eastcott  2011 discussed and set the record straight.  As a pluralist I accepted this and thought to myself well done it sets a good example  when elected  Eastcott councillors are willing  to tell us the truth about Eastcott 2011. :clap:

As  several days have elapsed since this thread was created and was first posted on
Quote
The broad theme seems to be the Lib Dems being called liars. Which is demonstrably false.
  Who by I find myself asking? 
Quote
They knew the claims of the Labour leaflets and various online outlets were nonsense.  They wanted to know why we weren't hammering Labour with them.

I now find myself after the lapse of time asking is it just the usual just an opportunity for  political “red herrings” to be be liberally spread about?

Quote
During an election campaign wasn't the time to set the record straight. Now is. Well, not now. As soon as I get the time I will be back.

I agree to some extent with that comment however experience of politicians ratchets up my sceptical level of astuteness. That is because the LibDems are  after all the experts at the political trick distraction. Personally I say this as I believe the whopper of these is the one that the Libdems pulled on the British electorate with the recent AV fiasco referendum.

Quote
  I asked them to trust us and hoped the community would, too. And they did. And the community did (well, at least the same number that previously have).


Yes fair assumption the Libdem candidate was elected, but will the LibDems now hammer Labour as threatened eluded to  in the above quote or run away and hide shrink from this gargantuan political  task? 

Am I going to find myself  left having no option but to believe every one or no one?  I must admit for other reasons I am finding it difficult at present to have a high level of trust in the libdems.  I do not believe I am alone in this as the voters did not  return  to their councils some 841 sitting Libdem councillors recently.

Did the voters lose faith somewhere along the line?  This loss of faith/trust had a political price. Losing control of 11 council's including Liverpool, Hull and most of all Sheffield their Galactical super cruiser flagship, must have been a punch to the political solar plexus. Though no doubt some Libdems will claim it as a punch below the political belt? With the Libdem losses, one glimmer one of the election nuggets outside of Eastleigh and Portsmouth was the win for them in Eastcott Swindon. Now it appears that the Libdems have put that win under the TS microscope and who can blame them they like all of us want the truth about Eastcott 2011  scrutinised.  If I am not mistaken TS has a bit of a knack at doing that. Therefore fair play to the Libdems for bringing the truth about Eastcott 2011 here.  :wink:

Some may say the Libdems are politically bankrupt  a spent force as they  now have less councillors since their tide mark low of 1988 about the same time when the dust settled after the SDP débâcle. They are now left  with  somewhere around  2,750 council seats. That may be so, but I believe every dog is allowed one bite and politically every dog has its day and that is why I am steeling myself for the truth about Eastcott 2011.  :popcorn:

The truth about Eastcott 2011 is more than just a thread on TS it is about political and personal reputations and perceptions with trust and faith thrown in.  I  hope  the truth will not suffer and if it does will there be any discussion about reputational damage to  the truth in Eastcott 2011? 

Admins is it possible to have a hammering smiley?

Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 14, 2011, 10:46:54 PM
I’m sorry to say that Dave should not have started this thread until he had had time to write the response.

Maybe Dave is busy, maybe not, or maybe he’s just avoiding posting to up the anti.  Personally I think that it’s too presumptuous to make any assumptions on why he has not yet posted. However I do think that it is a bad judgement call to start a threat called “Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011” when you haven’t got the post already prepared. TS is not the cinema and members or guests are not customers that need to have their taste buds tantalised with a promise that something worth reading will soon be posted.

Geoff with regard to your post about who authored the leaflets in Eastcott. In the end, as many will already know, the election agent takes the can for what is published and not the author, which is why most parties have a sign-off process. As for the contents of leaflets, I suspect that like many other newsletters or leaflets, including community newsletters, that the “author” is a group who act as an editorial team who collectively contribute to the final leaflet. Of course if one or more members of that team do not do their part in checking the accuracy of the contents then, as Des Moffatt so rightly points out
Quote
…..any of us can unwittingly tell lies. All politicians spin the story to put ourselves in the best light….

So the question about Cllr Pajak denying he made some of the comments published within the leaflets also begs the question, did he actually read them before agreeing to have his name credited to them?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chav on May 14, 2011, 11:58:48 PM
Bogo, thats politics for you.
Swings and round abouts, and that is regardless of politician or party.
You should know that by now.

If you become a politician , expect to be scrutinised at some point in the arena with the big boys and girls.
It unfortunately or  fortunately comes with the territory and as long as there are politicians , there will always be a public arena and activists.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Tobes on May 15, 2011, 01:35:34 AM
Quote
Chris was so close to taking Eastcott in his first year as a candidate. I could not believe the Lib Dems stayed in with their disgraceful tactics and dishonesty.

Errr, what ever else comes out of this thread, lets just get one thing straight. Whilst this issue is exercising the excitement of posters on TS (myself included) its speculative hyperbolic balls to suggest that the issue had any strong impact one way or the other on the Eascott electorate. The result was NOT close. Chris (nice chap that he is) lost. Not by some small margin of floating voters. Comfortably.

Quote
Quote

    The broad theme seems to be the Lib Dems being called liars. Which is demonstrably false.

  Who by I find myself asking? 

Geoff has levelled that accusation in his 'Pinoccio Politics' thread.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 15, 2011, 09:54:15 AM
Quote
Chris was so close to taking Eastcott in his first year as a candidate. I could not believe the Lib Dems stayed in with their disgraceful tactics and dishonesty.

Errr, what ever else comes out of this thread, lets just get one thing straight. Whilst this issue is exercising the excitement of posters on TS (myself included) its speculative hyperbolic balls to suggest that the issue had any strong impact one way or the other on the Eascott electorate. The result was NOT close. Chris (nice chap that he is) lost. Not by some small margin of floating voters. Comfortably.

Quote
Quote

    The broad theme seems to be the Lib Dems being called liars. Which is demonstrably false.

  Who by I find myself asking? 

Geoff has levelled that accusation in his 'Pinoccio Politics' thread.

I don’t know what the national or regional statistics are with regard to the swing but having looked at Eastcott from the time this seat was fought in 2007 the swing to Labour’s Chris Watts was 11.65%, Lib Dems vote share going down 0.32%.  With a 2.63% increase on turnout, (approx 214 more voters) the Lib Dems had their majority reduced by 206 compared with 2007.

How much of this can be put down to the national picture and how much can be put down to what happened locally is always going to open to interpretation depending on the political spin that each side wants to put on it.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 15, 2011, 09:56:57 AM
Quote
Chris was so close to taking Eastcott in his first year as a candidate. I could not believe the Lib Dems stayed in with their disgraceful tactics and dishonesty.

Errr, what ever else comes out of this thread, lets just get one thing straight. Whilst this issue is exercising the excitement of posters on TS (myself included) its speculative hyperbolic balls to suggest that the issue had any strong impact one way or the other on the Eascott electorate. The result was NOT close. Chris (nice chap that he is) lost. Not by some small margin of floating voters. Comfortably.

Thanks for posting that. I had previously written something almost identical, but decided against posting it as I realised it'd be written off as 'trolling'.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 15, 2011, 11:26:18 AM
Hyperbolic balls, now I like that phrase and yes I believe Tobes is correct. Certainly one ball that is growing, and being spun  is  that last Thursday's council elections somehow dilute  Labour's  march on  the Tories.  >:(

It is now clear that gains from the LibDems by the Tories in rural areas which are not General Election battlegrounds for Labour hid the Tories' losses to Labour. The Tories decimated rural liberal seats hoovering them up like a busy Cllr Renard hoovers up surplus cash to top up his budget.  :2funny:

Now that may be a tad worrying for the coalition liberals but it brought  air punching joy for the Tories as it saved them from a dismal result.  :agreed:

Around half of Labour's gains were directly from the Tories. Of the Labour gains, 415 less than half of their total were taken from the Conservatives, and not from wards like Eastcott. Perhaps the Tories did a coalition deal with Eastcott?  :wink:  Interestingly Labour's Eastcott increase easily swallows up the Tory decrease.  ;D

I heard the OT&L candidate was very vociferous with gratitude to the candidate in Eastcott for keeping those pesky Liberals occupied as last time out the Liberals had halved their majority.  I wonder how true that is?  >:D  Will the truth about Eastcott 2011 contain that type of information?

Labour campaign helping the Tories in OT&L?  If that is the case did Labour cut the Liberal vote across the rest of the town by several hundred votes by occupying the Liberal army in Eastcott? Did Labour really have a rent a mob?  Possibly the truth about Eastcott 2011 may also contain that type of information?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 15, 2011, 12:32:37 PM
".....why are we waiting......."
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Terry Reynolds on May 15, 2011, 12:50:33 PM
Funny how you can give results to fit your ideal, it was reported that this election, was the worst for Labour since man in the mac foot lost in '81, Labour was wiped out in Scotland and not just rural areas, at least one poster on here before the election said that the lib dems and the tories would be thrown out by this election, and was they, no, just another day, for those who didn't bother to vote, if Labour did so well, why did motaut go so quickly then.  just accept the results and start your crowing for the next one.......
Title: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 16, 2011, 02:06:50 PM
Hello again.  Busy few days, and it looks like the ranting has calmed down on here.  Let's go:

A number of non-Lib Dems have been face-palming the fact that I'm even attempting to set the record straight on TS, even more independent minded people on here have assured we I won't get any kind of 'fair hearing'.

I will present the simple facts and won't be engaging in the hair-splitting.  Publish and be damned, as they say.

I'm posting it for the silent few who may have seen the accusations.  And may publish elsewhere to be sure.

Accusation 1: Something illegal might be going on, hence home addresses are being withheld
Verdict: False

A lot of quite strange accusations have been levelled here on this point.  The truth is that our exact address is not published in easy access because of the personal risks presented by a non-political (and non-spooky) factor.  For the determined person it's easy enough to find and appears on other websites where the request has not been acted upon, but it's about minimising risk.  And for the record we still both live here full-time and are in no rental arrangements with anyone, and own no other property.  And we pay full council tax without discount ;-)

Accusation 2: You can't contact us directly outside of election periods
Verdict: False


There is always at least one home address, phone number and email address for one of the team on each normal leaflet and letter.  Which appear throughout the year.  More than this also appears online.

Accusation 3: Stan denying leaflets
Verdict: What is going on?


I've spoken to Stan about the accusation that he denied quotes on Focus leaflets.  He has no idea what the accuser is on about.  In answer to the question of authorship of leaflets, between 4-8 people contribute towards the content of any one leaflet (always including Stan, which might answer the earlier question).  Icky might say too many cooks spoil the broth? Or is it diffusion of proof reading? Who knows.

Accusation 4: Dave & Nicky
Verdict: False on points


It has been said that relationship status of candidates and councillors is not relevant, which is fair enough.  But that at some point we should have mentioned our relation and/or living together.  Which is fair comment.

It has also said our relationship status has never been mentioned, this is false.  Admittedly this was last year rather than this year, but our relationship was announced in a leaflet.

Further, another local leaflet (not Focus on that occasion) displayed both our addresses.  And being the same address, of course.

Maybe we should have repeated this during the election campaign?  Frankly it didn't occur to me.

Accusation 5: There was a swing from Lib Dems to Labour
Verdict: True, but misleading


True the official figures from when this last seat was up show a 0.32% (or somesuch) swing from LD to Lab.  However in terms of actual numbers of voters (excluding the general election years, which are unrepresentative) Nicky got the second highest number of votes for a Lib Dem in Eastcott in 6 years? 10 years? 15 years? Something like that.

Accusation 6: The Labour candidate was 'paperless'
Verdict: False (if this is true)


Sadly I can't verify this, but a member of the Labour candidate's family apparantly appeared in the paper saying Chris was a paperless candidate.  They put out more leaflets than (I'd guess) in the last 5 years combined, including general elections, and the Labour rent-a-mob certainly put in a lot more than lonely old me out on my own!  The Labour candidate said he was knocking on door and putting out leaflet right from selection - or perhaps before - so this claim seems unlikely.

Accusation 6: Residents association
Verdict: False


The accusation seems to be that because the Labour candidate was selected and scrutinised the Kingshill Crossing, Lib Dem candidate Nicky Sewell formed a residents association.

It would take too many sentances to fully pick this apart.  Suffice to say it was formed before Labour selected a candidate.  And we started work on the residents association some time before Nicky decided to stand, and indeed whilst Martin was still presumed to be the 2011 candidate.  With a little more digging, all the facts are there.

Accusation 7: Kingshill Crossing
Verdict: False


It started innocently enough.  We printed a leaflet with the infamous article with a quote from Stan about the Labour candidates carrying-ons.  Following this the Labour candidate questioned a council officer, fairly mildly and along with many other people, about the crossing during a public meeting.  Because said Labour person saw the leaflet after the meeting not before, they succombed to the understandable logical fallacy that one followed the other. 

Said Labour candidate then FOIed that officer about the encounter.  The officer denied any correspondence.  Labour candidate used this to accuse Lib Dems of telling porkies, or whatever the wording was.

This was pointed out in email and in person to Labour candidate that clearly there had been a misunderstanding.  Fair play to him, he did then remove the personal attacks from his website.  However the falsehood remained.  And is repeated by others to this day, despite the fact that the impossibility of the charge has been pointed out. 

Accusation 8: Clifton Street Post Box
Verdict: False


Several accusations here:
1. I said I'd contacted the Post Office and had not.   False.  I have an email from post office staff confirming my contacting them on this issue before the Labour candidates involvement.
2. I claimed to be working for SBC when speaking to the Post Office.  False.  See below.
3. I withheld being a councillor when speaking to the Post Office.  False.  I have an email pre-dating the Labour candidates unsuccessful complaint to the Standards Committee referring to myself (to the contact we both spoke to) as councillor.

I'd like to think this was just a misunderstanding, and Standards were certainly right to throw out the complaint.

There is a lot more to say on this point but I'll stick to the straight facts for now until such times as the outcome is determined.

Accusation 9: Expiry Dates and Clusters
Verdict: Baffled


I have to admit this baffled me more than any other claim on this website, and was also heavily featured in the Labour leaflet.

This seems to be the first so far that's just plucked from thin air.

As a bit of background, I'm the Chair of the Town Centre cluster.  Under the cluster, councillors and officers do various things.  However one of these things was NOT lobbying about parking permits.  Unless someone else was lobbying on behalf of the cluster without the knowledge of it's chair, which seems unlikely.

This is all assuming I've not had a rather large memory lapse somewhere.  I look forward to the evidence that would prove me wrong - and as we all know memory is not perfect - but I doubt I will see any such evidence.

Well, that's the abridged version.  This is just the tip of the iceberg.  Much more of the same was included in the many Labour leaflets Eastcott saw in recent months.  But these haven't been brought up here.

Just to repeat.  I'm not here to get a 'fair trial' from the Labour people here.  So I doubt I will contribute further unless a genuine need for clarification comes up.  This post contains the truth, don't fall for any spin in the posts that follow.

I'm also more than happy to meet the Labour candidate to discuss this further if any confusion remains.

PS - I've alluded to a number of relevant documentary sources in this post (something the other side failed to provide).  I won't share emails between individuals on the Internet.  However if any non-partisan Eastcott resident would like to see any of the documentation let me know and I will happily oblige - dave@swindonlibdems.org
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 16, 2011, 03:29:44 PM
 
.....And on the 8th Day Cllr Wood finally posted, although I doubt what he's posted will stand up to scrutiny for very long.  Frankly, having taken 8 days to produce a damning rebuttal I'm a bit disappointed with what appears to be his final statement on the matter.

Cllr Wood is running around a minefield of his own creation and he's wearing clowns shoes. I can see several petards in Cllr Wood's 'truth' above, each of will will hoist him a little higher than the one before.    :)



edit: corrected bb code error
Title: Re: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 16, 2011, 04:09:18 PM
Just to repeat.  I'm not here to get a 'fair trial' from the Labour people here.  So I doubt I will contribute further unless a genuine need for clarification comes up.  This post contains the truth, don't fall for any spin in the posts that follow.

Its good it has finally been posted as promised. Well done for that  :clap:
I don't think I'll take instruction from politicians  on what is or is not the truth. This is not a trial, but I will scrutinise what has been said, and yet to be said by the other party in this dispute, then I will balance the probabilities before making up my own mind. I hope that I do not fall for any spin, well I hope not easily? I am now confused by the response as to what is actually at the heart of the truth about Eastcott 2011.  :popcorn:

Now over to the other party to follow up and give their side of the truth about  Eastcott 2011.  :coffee:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 16, 2011, 06:47:43 PM
Sorry for the delay :)

for what it is worth...

Accusation 3: Stan denying leaflets

Stan Pajak approached me on Groundwell Road on the day before the election. He was displeased with the comments I had made about the first Kingshill Crossing. He was not willing to listen to what I had to say and quite frankly wound me up. I then asked him about his comments about me and the second Kingshill Crossing (accusation 7). At which point, he claimed no knowledge of the comments. I explained that these comments were made in his name. He replied “surely you don't write everything in your leaflets that is in your name?” I stated that any comments attributed to me were written by me. Stan's reply is in contradiction to an email sent to me by Dave Wood on this matter – see accusation 7 for more information.

Accusation 5: There was a swing from Lib Dems to Labour

I am pleased with the progress that Labour has made in Eastcott ward. It is the best that Labour have done for 21 years in this ward.
If you compare the 2011 result with last local Council only election in 2008, there was a swing of +17% and an increase in votes for Labour of 713.
If you compare the 2011 result with the 2010 result, it was a swing of +9%.

Accusation 6: The Labour candidate was 'paperless'

The term “paperless” is incorrect. In the Swindon Advertiser dated, 7 May 2011 –  “...were only ever supposed to be “paper candidates” said father Peter, 70. He said “When we started off it was as paper candidates...”
I am very proud that my father and I gave the respective incumbents a run for their money. Not bad for starters.

Accusation 7: Kingshill Crossing

The facts:
15 Feb 2011 - The head of Highway Management attended a local residents' association meeting
28 Feb 2011 – I received a copy of the FOCUS leaflet in which it stated,
Cllr Stan Pajak said, “Labour’s candidate went in like a bull in a china shop and likely made the Council dig its heels in, undoing months of influence and persuasion. We must not let Lab’s party politics point scoring wreck the Crossing Campaign for another generation.”
28 February 2011 – I made an Freedom of Information (FOI) request regarding the above statement
11 March 2011 – I received an email from Dave Wood regarding this matter stating that the above statement was not related to my contribution at the local residents' association meeting
15 March 2011 – I received the following answer from my FOI request -
“I can confirm that we can find no evidence of any correspondence or other
communication with Christopher Watts on either the topic of Kingshill
Crossing or any other topic.”

In conclusion, the Stan Pajak statement can only be related to my contribution at the local residents' association meeting or be a complete fabrication, as the FOI has proved that I have had no other contact with the Council regarding this issue. It should be noted that the Stan Pajak statement has been written in the past tense, so must be referring to something that has already happened (or not as proven by the FOI).
(Regarding Accusation no. 3 - Dave Wood's email from 11 March 2011 states that he has spoken to Stan Pajak and that Stan said that his statement regarding the Labour candidate and the Kingshill Crossing was nothing to do with the residents' association meeting. This contradicts the conversation I had with Stan Pajak on the day before the election on Groundwell Road.)

Accusation 8: Clifton Street Post Box

As stated in my blog in full, here is an outline of the sequence of events :
9 Nov 2010 – at a residents association meeting, a Clifton Street resident requested the return of the Clifton Street post box. (This is minuted.)
Dec 2010 – Focus leaflet “When Labour closed the Clifton Street Post Office we were promised a post box on Clifton Street. The Lib Dems are campaigning for a post box to be brought to Clifton Street.”
(This politicised a residents' association issue that compromises its impartiality.)
Jan 2011 – Cllr report to resident's association “currently navigating the Royal Mail hierarchy to try to find the exact person to lobby.”
24 Jan 2011 (10 weeks after the initial request was made) – I contacted the post office and asked for the person in charge of street furniture for Swindon and was put in contact with the Post Office Collections Performance Manager (POCPM). She was unaware of any request or campaign for the return of the Clifton Street post box. As it is her sole responsibility for street furniture in this area, I took her at her word and I put in the request. Further emails exchanged between us over the next month, as she requested information and I supplied the information that she requested.

Regarding Cllr Woods comments:
1.until 24 January 2011, the only person who could make a decision on the return of the Clifton Street post box: the PCOPM was unaware of this request. (She can contacted very easily and is extremely approachable and helpful).
2.I have an email from the  POCPM stating that
“I have had a call from Dave Ward who tells me he works from Swindon Borough Council”
3.In addition to the above comment, I had a telephone conversation on 4 March 2011, at 11:30 with the POCPM following the cancellation of the meeting, where she stated that she was not aware that Dave Wood was a councillor. The POCPM also confirmed that she had cancelled the meeting with me as a direct result of a earlier telephone conversation with Dave Wood.

NB. On my very first email to the POCPM on 24/01/11, I signed it off as -
“Chris Watts
Eastcott Labour Party”

I have now passed this matter onto Robert Buckland MP, as I feel that it is most important that the residents of Clifton Street get their post box returned as quickly as possible. I would ask one question, why would the POCPM work with me throughout February, if the “campaign” was already up and running?I too am happy to show emails/documentation to anyone who doubts my word, whatever political views you may hold.

Accusation 9: Expiry Dates and Clusters

In various Lib Dem leaflets, they have stated -

1.    April 11 – “Residents Parking Success – Expiry Date OFF Visitor Permits”
2.   Election Special 2 – “Focus Team Successes on Resident's Parking: Don't forget recent successes on Resident's Parking from the Focus Team: Expiry Dates OFF Visitors Permits”
3.    Election Special 1  - photo of Nicky Sewell & Stan Pajak with the caption “ Expiry Dates OFF Visitor Permits...”
4.    Focus Leaflet with “Residents Parking is Changing” & “No More Split Houses Here Please” lead stories -
“Focus Team Successes on Resident's Parking: Don't forget recent successes on Resident's Parking from the Focus Team: Expiry Dates OFF Visitors Permits”
5.Letter entitled “Residents' Parking is Changing” - “As you know, the Focus Team have been fighting for years to change Resident's Parking, and as you know have pushed for the real change the scheme has seen, including: Expiry Dates are now OFF Resident's Parking visitor permits
6.Letter updating residents “on the local issues our newest member... Nicky Sewell is working on with the FOCUS Team.” “Visitor permit success! After a long campaign by the FOCUS Team the Council are finally ending the rip-off by taking dates off all new Visitors Permits....The FOCUS Team has succeeded in its fight for you to have un-dated visitor permits.”

On at least 6 occasions, the FOCUS Team have claimed credit for the removal of expiry dates from visitors' permits.
I have maintained in my leaflets that this was due to the good work of the Central Cluster that comprises of cross party Councillors, Council Officers and members of the public.
I will say no more on this, because I know that there is a Councillor who wants to pick this up.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: DaveWood on May 16, 2011, 09:58:38 PM
I said I probably wouldn't get involved in the splitting of hairs, but since it's you Chris.

Stan and the Leaflet

Sounds like a misunderstanding somewhere.  But what is known is that Stan did sign his comments on this.  I believe I still have the email.  I can't think there's much else to say.

Kingshill Crossing

I have it in writing that the leaflet was printed prior to this public meeting.  It is impossible the meeting relates to the leaflet.

The FOI request confirms you did not have correspondence with that officer.  It demonstrates nothing else.

Post Box

Again, there is documentary evidence that I was engaging with the Post Office in 2010 on this issue. 

Clearly it seems there are emails where we both made our positions clear in relation to the Post Office.  So it would seem that is clear.

Expiry Dates

Yes you tried to give credit to the Cluster.  But it was not the Cluster who lobbied for this? Again unless that happened without my knowledge as Chair of Cluster, or I've fallen into a black hole.

I pushed for expiry dates to go off permits independently of the cluster.  Case closed.

Well, that's me.  No doubt there could be endless debate on a diminishing number of points.  But the facts are clearly there for all to see.  So this is me signing off.  I'm sure I'll be back at some point soon to discuss the news of the day with TSers, but I think we're done on this subject.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Spectre on May 16, 2011, 10:20:46 PM
Reminds me of the hit record by Dead or Alive 1985.

"You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby"  :2funny:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 16, 2011, 10:23:24 PM
Well, that's me.  No doubt there could be endless debate on a diminishing number of points.  But the facts are clearly there for all to see.  So this is me signing off.  I'm sure I'll be back at some point soon to discuss the news of the day with TSers, but I think we're done on this subject.

Yes, I'm pretty sure there will be further discussion. Picking the truth from fabrication is always interesting for readers and questioners alike.

No, what Cllr Woods euphemisticly calls 'facts' are not "clearly there for all to see" and what's really obvious is that he's not willing to publish the documents he claims to have.

Cllr Dave might desperately wish to be "done with the subject", but there's a good deal to examine in what he's claimed as 'fact' today.

The only thing Cllr Wood has really made clear in his last two posts is that he wishes to evade answering quite valid questions as quickly as possible.  The explanations he has thus far supplied appear to be more mitigation of Lib Dem behaviour than validation of the truth and, when considered carefully, will be seen to be already leaking heavily.

Dave may be done.  I'm not  :)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Spectre on May 16, 2011, 10:27:37 PM
Reminds me of the hit record by Dead or Alive 1985.

"You spin me right round baby, right round, like a record baby"  :2funny:

And for you Chris   ........................ Anita Bryant singing........."Paper Roses"   ;D
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Tobes on May 17, 2011, 01:27:25 AM
Well, as one of the few actual Eastcott residents commenting, I'm in no position to make a damning judgement or an exoneration based on whats been presented so far. I'll try and be objective when I note the following (given that I have personal reasons to be disappointed with the libs, I hope they will be seen in proper context and no one accuses me of any bias.)

1. Dave has responded. That's a good thing. I can't help juxtaposing this against the near total lack of engagement we have had from serving tory and (until very recently, when TS began to attract a higher percentage of left-leaning contributors*) labour politicians/councillors. I can't help wondering if he would really have bothered if he believed himself to be in the wrong...? Surely he'd be aware that any glaring falsehoods would be exposed? (and in addition, aside from some engagement from Greenhalgh six months ago, I've not seen anyone from either two other parties doing anything for the ward until the build up for this election.) Does he believe what he says?
2. Dave is not Stan. They may be in the same party, but (personally at least) I think it would be rather akin to my criticism of Chris for associating with Milliband... Those who are big supporters of Chris and who took issue with my observation might have reason to pause and consider their philosophical consistency
3. Post election, we seem to be witnessing arguments about the differing semantic interpretations of what was said (or not said), by whom regarding the location of a post box, whether a candidate was 'paperless', or whether the cluster group (something, incidentally, which 90% of residents don't engage with at all) OR the Lib Dems got expiry dates off of parking permits. Given that the cluster group have never asked anyone I know in the areas what they thought on the issue (and apparently don't even keep proper minutes of their meetings for me to even find out what they have/haven't agreed,) at least the local Lib Dems seem a bit more credible in terms of claiming some influence (I know both Dave and Martin have spoken to me regarding the issue.) As for the Kings Hill crossing, to me as a bystander, its an issue which probably only exercises the interest of a very few specifically Kingshill residents. Reading the claims and counter claims as to who said what to whom, I'm really none the wiser as to if anyone lied or not. It looks like a dose of confusion and either side jumping to the worst conclusions about the other, to me. I guess peoples inclination to believe one or the other very much depends on their choice of red or yellow.

None of these issue are 'WiFi' in nature. In fact, I don't know of any residents who actually give a more than a very cursory shit either way. They are not vote winning or losing issues for most people, which I think makes a lot of this speculation, argument and angst rather irrelevent.

It all looks to me like there are some questions to be asked - but the extremes of judgement being drawn, as well as some of the vilification are a tad extreme. Bald fact: Chris lost. But the above issues seem arguable for starters and are hardly things exercising the interests of 90% of the locals. I think people voted (in order of preference) according to: familiarity with the party and candidate - and national issues (which would account for a big chunk of the swing). The rest of the leaflets basically claimed the same thing for both parties! - ie. 'We're going to work on new ideas for residents parking' etc. There was nothing specifically to favour chris in terms of his 'new vision', no core reason to vote him in in preference apart from his political flag of convenience, and frankly, whatever negative aspects crept into either candidates campaigns went over peoples heads.

I can't help thinking that its all starting to look a bit like sour grapes. Its not doing either side any favours. When it comes to local elections it seems EVERY side makes over-extended claims - Chris included. Its called campaigning (sadly). I'm going to have to go through the entire thread again to check that I've not missed anything glaring, but as things stand, and having read both sides of the argument, I still haven't found anything I would regard as 'damning' for Dave. In the interests of balance, Icky is an unknown quantity to me, and Stan appears somewhat aloof and disengaged from our part of the ward. Both candidates ran a fairly run-of-the-mill campaign. Nothing stuck out to me - and given I'm more politically sensitive than the people I know in the ward, I can't help thinking that we're scrutinising something of a non issue here.

That's just my thought on the matter. I remain open minded to further evidence but tbh, its with a weary and cynical shrug of the shoulders.


*20 - just because people choosing to participate here are increasingly of a left persuasion does not mean that TS is a 'de facto' lefty biased forum. You've been censured because of the manner in which you've expressed yourself, not because of what you believe. I know you won't believe me when I say this, but I know that some of those who are/were the strongest critics of some of your posts are actually very alike you in political outlook. TS is attracting more left-wing councillors an contributors because that's the way the political wind is blowing at the moment. Its also my personal belief that certain councillors and activists also perceive some of Geoff's criticisms of Rod and co. as a clarion call for them to set up camp here. All I can say is that two years ago, Labour activists and politicians were actively describing TS as a 'right wing forum'. The wind blows back and forth, and the politically tribal make very simplistic and often disloyal warriors. Lets see what happens to the nature of TS should Labour win power locally!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 17, 2011, 08:50:31 AM
I can't help thinking that its all starting to look a bit like sour grapes.

Which is odd, because they won ???
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Mellon on May 17, 2011, 09:12:54 AM
Or its guilt....
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 17, 2011, 09:29:33 AM
In all this, what interested me most is that Mr Watts has gone out of his way to confirm that, as far as the Council are concerned, they know nothing at all about him doing anything in terms of pushing for a second crossing on Kingshill. Maybe he only intended to start if he gained enough votes.

With specific regards to the May 5th elections, as somebody, like Tobes, who actually lives and votes in Eastcott, I have to say I think it's a little naive and childish to suppose that ANY of the candidates' election material wasn't 'sexed up' in some way. That's what politicians do around election time, they talk up anything positive they can claim to have had any involvement with (which is why they get involved in things in the first place), they play down the things they haven't maybe done so well and they play up the faults/mistakes of the other candidates.

As has been mentioned previously, and noted by many, the Labour man in Eastcott chose to run a noticeably negative campaign - far more so than any of the other candidates. This then became an easy target for the LibDems, which they duly exploited, and was an ill-advised way to promote the Labour candidate in an area that is essentially a LibDem stronghold.

Needless to say, it backfired and the virtually unknown LibDem candidate sailed through to win the Ward election, completely at odds with what happened to the LibDems nationally.

I suspect that some had Eastcott earmarked as a likely Labour gain and have had their noses somewhat put out of joint that  it didn't happen, that's why we're now seeing people who don't even live near Eastcott taking such a concern over the Ward.

Fact is, even if Stan Pajak and/or the Focus group are demonstrably PROVEN to have lied a bit in their campaign material, it won't make a blind bit of difference to the May 5th result and I doubt very much it'll make any difference next year.

People expect politicians to lie, especially about their rivals. It's not exactly news if/when they do. Take the Phil Woolas case, he may have lost his post but the electorate immediately voted in another recruit from the same party who presumably oversaw and condoned his election campaign lies.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Tobes on May 17, 2011, 11:37:53 AM
Lets just be clear - sour grapes on both sides: Dave's been needled by the accusations and innuendo. You and your supporters have made some pretty strong criticisms and have pursued them and Dave has attempted to answer them (a shame that Stan and Icky haven't become engaged, but c'est la vie). But in the final analysis, I don't think most ward residents either care about the issues being argued over, or the accusations being levelled, so yes, sour grapes.

You ran a proper opposition campaign in the ward for the first time in years and you ran them closer than anyone else has managed for ages - though their majority remains significant - and despite some TS members having seemingly regarded your win as a foregone conclusion. I personally welcome your continuing input and influence into local politics as it'll really up the anti and remove any suspicions of complacency amongst the Lib team in the Eastcott ward. You will always have my support when you act as a local activist - but I won't be endorsing any photo ops with Labour Party grandees and appologists for the erosion of civil liberties  :wink:

The adage 'Don't ascribe malice to words or events best explained by confusion or misinterpretation' (and a dose of passion in this case) - would seem to be a good lens to view these exchanges through. One thing is for certain, next year's campaigning leaflets from both sides will be incredibly carefully worded!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 17, 2011, 06:12:48 PM
I'm really none the wiser as to if anyone lied or not. It looks like a dose of confusion and either side jumping to the worst conclusions about the other, to me. I guess peoples inclination to believe one or the other very much depends on their choice of red or yellow.


Isn't that just a tad insulting to TS readers?, in that you seem to be suggesting that their opinions are swayed more by the colour of a political rosette than their ability to reach their own conclusions about what the truth may be based on what is written, what evidence is produced to support what is written and the credibility of the various authors?



None of these issue are 'WiFi' in nature. In fact, I don't know of any residents who actually give a more than a very cursory shit either way. They are not vote winning or losing issues for most people, which I think makes a lot of this speculation, argument and angst rather irrelevant.

Taken individually I'd agree that none of the campaigning issues are necessarily vote winners or losers in their own right.  However, taken cumulatively and considered against the [my] belief that the Eastcott Liberal Democrats have authored and published many statements which are demonstrably untruthful, the campaigning issues referred to are particularly relevant to everyone in the Borough who is interested in which councillors are credible, reliable and honest, and which might be abject political liars.

There may well be some weariness, apathy and disinterest in Eastcott, but continuing external interest in these topics suggests that those feelings are probably felt more keenly by those who want this subject to dissapear for political reasons.   


I can't help thinking that its all starting to look a bit like sour grapes.

And normally I'd probably agree with Tobes although I'd point out that these conversations started before the elections, and had all but died off post-election until Cllr Wood decided to resurrect them and fire off a fresh batch of bullshit - particularly where Stan 'Pinnochio' Pajak was concerned  :)

Whilst public interest remains high I'll keep digging until the most recent nuggets of dishonest Lib Dem statements have been retrieved, washed off and examined under a bright lamp.  Unsurprisingly, more of the bloody things keep cropping up and deciding between them on what is currently relevant is time consuming.


Re: 'Philosophical consistency' -  I'd have to be particularly dumb not to notice Tobe's regular jibes about my support for several electoral candidates having moved from being for predominantly and generally for all conservative candidates until 2007/2008 thereafter moving gradually towards 3 specific labour candidates in 2011.  My philosophical outlook remains largely unchanged, I remain opposed to more or less exactly the same things I always have been.

One thing I don't do is confuse my own 'philosophical consistency' with political dogma or ideology - I don't have much use for the latter two and I doubt anyone could rightfully accuse me of being wedded to either of them.  I am always open to considering arguments and am not afraid of changing my opinions after considering arguments and evidence against the canvass of current, and possible future events.

I consider and try to learn from past events, but I'll be buggered if I'd let them rigidly dictate my future.  I don't ascribe to the 'Thus has it always been, and thus it will always be' mantra which, although it may be psychologically/politically comforting to some, is a dogmatic and philosophical dead-end.     


I can't help thinking that we're scrutinising something of a non issue here.

I disagree with Tobes and I question his use and definition of 'non-issue' - If questioning whether elected members of the council are being transparent and honest, or fabricating and authoring demonstrably untruthful political leaflets is a 'non-issue' in his opinion then I'd counter-question his own 'philosophical consistency'.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 17, 2011, 06:31:16 PM
Why is it that anyone who dares question certain viewpoints is always 'insulting to TS readers'?

Tobes' posts have been absolutely bang on the money in this thread and have, unlike some, not been massively overinformed by political bias towards the losing candidate.

As an Eastcott resident, I can confirm that Tobes' comments ring far closer to the way that I, and many of my neighours, feel about the whole situation.

What is fairly insulting is to be essentially mocked, by people who live outside the Ward, for voting for somebody who hasn't even directly been accused of lying.

There's an awful lot more I could write about this but can't, as it'll either not get published or I'll simply be accused of 'trolling' - a situation that has, in light of recent posts by various contributors, become so ironic as to be almost knuckle-biting in its hilarity.


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Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Tobes on May 17, 2011, 07:06:24 PM
Quote
sn't that just a tad insulting to TS readers?, in that you seem to be suggesting that their opinions are swayed more by the colour of a political rosette than their ability to reach their own conclusions about what the truth may be based on what is written, what evidence is produced to support what is written and the credibility of the various authors?

Pfff - we deal with people who appear to be unable to read things objectively all the time on TS (theres certainly a lot of very strident invective). Hey, lets see who's influenced in the long run as proof of the pudding. It certainly didn't seem to influence the result of the election. And sadly, there are examples of poster here who'd argue black was white in order to justify their existing alliances. (I think they're all rather too thick skinned to be insulted). Personally I'm something of a floater. I've already said that I like Chris. This isn't a partisan issue for me at a local level, other than that national politicians decided to become associated, which made me very uncomfortable.

Quote
Re: 'Philosophical consistency' -  I'd have to be particularly dumb not to notice Tobe's regular jibes about my support for several electoral candidates having moved from being for predominantly and generally for all conservative candidates until 2007/2008 thereafter moving gradually towards 3 specific labour candidates in 2011.  My philosophical outlook remains largely unchanged, I remain opposed to more or less exactly the same things I always have been.

Oi, lower the Reid blood pressure.  :wink: It was not a reference to 'your' support. How could I have possibly known you had taken particular issue with my comment regarding Chris cavorting with Milliband?! And I am not jibing at you - I'm making trying to make a serious overall point which I can't simply ignore just because its unpopular: Milliband and his political ilk were a mere 18 months ago attracting some of the strongest possible diatribes from a variety of posters on TS (not just you!). And apart from your support for Chris (and maybe Steve W?) I have no idea who you've endorsed!!

We can't just pretend that those issues have gone away - or indeed sit comfortably with a local candidate who chose to associate with a senior party member who was an apologist for those policies - or can we?  ??? At the very least its a difficult balancing act unless our allegiances and what we say reflect an objectivity. Theres been a lot of absolute condemnation along party lines, it seems to me. Maybe I'm wrong - but that's the way its looked.

I'm sure people will draw their own conclusions - but as someone with gripes with both parties, its still not a polarising issue for me, based on what's come to light so far (though I conceed it has rather confirmed some negative perceptions I've harboured).

Quote
If questioning whether elected members of the council are being transparent and honest, or fabricating and authoring demonstrably untruthful political leaflets is a 'non-issue' in his opinion then I'd counter-question his own 'philosophical consistency'.

I'm all for the questioning, but what's the conclusion? That determines whether or not it was/is a real issue.

Perhaps I'm just being stupid and I need it explaining over a pint, but its all just seems a bit 'he said, she said, he said' and I'm losing the thread of what's real...?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 17, 2011, 07:48:57 PM
I'm losing the thread of what's real...?


And that, despite the expected gentle meandering of the topic ever since I posted my original blog post Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=7435.0), is exactly the point.  Thanks for bringing us neatly back to it :)

Exactly how much 'truth' do leaflets authored, published and distributed by Eastcotts liberal democrat councillors contain? - precious little I believe and until Cllr Wood gives a straight and direct answer as to which of them, i.e, Cllr's Pajak, Woods and Woods Sewell authored specific comments & statements within those leaflets, it's a little difficult for me to assume otherwise than they are collectively responsible in a joint enterprise to deceive, and/or lie to, every Eastcott resident fortunate enough to receive a visit and/or leaflet. 


Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 17, 2011, 08:21:02 PM
Let's, for a minute, play along with the notion that Mr Watts never tells anything but the real truth (which seems to be defined as whatever certain contributors believe at any given moment) and that all of the local LibDems only ever tell utter lies.

What impact did that have on this year's Eastcott elections and what impact will it have next year? Bugger all.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 17, 2011, 08:32:12 PM
One thing is for certain, next year's campaigning leaflets from both sides will be incredibly carefully worded!


For me this is the key statement of the thread. If this is an outcome due to my involvement (and continued involvement and scrutiny in Eastcott) this year, then that has got to be a good result and a positive change. Hopefully, it will mean no more of this...

http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/ (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/)

I know that our involvement in Public Scrutiny of the Council over the past 18 months has effected change. We may not have attained the desired results but there is surely a modification of behaviour of an administration that perceived itself untouchable due to its position of power. A position that bred complacency and, to a certain extent, contempt.
The Lib Dems, after 26 years, are in a similar position in Eastcott, and it will do no harm to the ward if they know that someone is having a peek over their shoulder now and again.



Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 17, 2011, 08:54:04 PM
Accusation 7: Kingshill Crossing

The facts:
15 Feb 2011 - The head of Highway Management attended a local residents' association meeting
28 Feb 2011 – I received a copy of the FOCUS leaflet in which it stated,
Cllr Stan Pajak said, “Labour’s candidate went in like a bull in a china shop and likely made the Council dig its heels in, undoing months of influence and persuasion. We must not let Lab’s party politics point scoring wreck the Crossing Campaign for another generation.”
28 February 2011 – I made an Freedom of Information (FOI) request regarding the above statement
11 March 2011 – I received an email from Dave Wood regarding this matter stating that the above statement was not related to my contribution at the local residents' association meeting
15 March 2011 – I received the following answer from my FOI request -
“I can confirm that we can find no evidence of any correspondence or other
communication with Christopher Watts on either the topic of Kingshill
Crossing or any other topic.”

In conclusion, the Stan Pajak statement can only be related to my contribution at the local residents' association meeting or be a complete fabrication, as the FOI has proved that I have had no other contact with the Council regarding this issue. It should be noted that the Stan Pajak statement has been written in the past tense, so must be referring to something that has already happened (or not as proven by the FOI).
(Regarding Accusation no. 3 - Dave Wood's email from 11 March 2011 states that he has spoken to Stan Pajak and that Stan said that his statement regarding the Labour candidate and the Kingshill Crossing was nothing to do with the residents' association meeting. This contradicts the conversation I had with Stan Pajak on the day before the election on Groundwell Road.)

FOI’s can be useful things and of course you only get the information that you ask for.

So that all TS’er can see the actual wording and what was asked for, the FOI was
Quote
Christopher Watts

28 February 2011
Dear Gwillam Lloyd (Head of Highway Management),

I have received today an Eastcott Focus leaflet (February 2011
edition) from the local Lib Dems that states:

"Labour Nearly Wrecks 2nd Crossing

...this time they [Labour] nearly wrecked the campaign for a second
Kingshill Crossing. Cllr Stan Pajak said, "Labour's candidate went
in like a bull in a china shop and likely made the council dig its
heels in, undoing months of influence and persuasion. We must not
let Labour's party political point-scoring wreck the crossing
campaign for another generation.""

Please can you answer the following questions:

1. Please could you supply me with details of any contact that you
have had from Chris Watts with regards to the second Kingshill Road
crossing. This request should cover any written or email
communications, particularly the time and date, and any transcripts
or recordings if you have them.

2. Please could you supply me with details of any contact that you
have had from Chris Watts that have caused you to "dig your heals
in" with regards to your decision making process that could be
detrimental to the second Kingshill crossing cause. This request
should cover any written or email communications, particularly the
time and date, and any transcripts or recordings if you have them.

3. Please could you supply me with details of any contact that you
have had from Chris Watts that may have caused you to disregard
"months of influence and persuasion" with regards the second
Kingshill crossing cause. This request should cover any written or
email communications, particularly the time and date, and any
transcripts or recordings if you have them.

Yours faithfully,

Christopher Watts

To which the reply was:
Quote
“I can confirm that we can find no evidence of any correspondence or other communication with Christopher Watts on either the topic of Kingshill Crossing or any other topic.”

Their reply only proves that they could find no evidence of any written or email communications, particularly the time and date, and any transcripts or recordings if you have them. with Gwillam Lloyd (Head of Highway Management)

This does not cover anything that may have been communicated verbally by you, whilst lobbying or campaigning to either the head of traffic management, any other council officers or any other administration councillors who may have had any influence over the issue.

So for clarification Chris, can you confirm that you have not communicated verbally with the head of traffic management, any other council officers or any other administration councillors who may have had any influence over the issue?

With regard to the time frame, 15/2 Public Meeting to 28/2 receipt of Focus leaflet:
13 days seems like a possible turnaround time for a leaflet.

However given that in 13 days the leaflet would have had to have been written, checked, sent to the printers (which looking at the imprint was in Southampton) received the leaflet back and then sorted the leaflets for whoever distributed them, it seems like a very quick turnaround indeed.

Maybe Dave Wood can confirm when this leaflet was actually ordered from the printers.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 17, 2011, 08:54:13 PM


S'funny, I thought this lib dem election leaflet clearly showed that they were responsible for the resurfacing of Stafford Street and Kent Road?


(http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2025%20Lib%20Dem%20Eastcott_Thumb.jpg) (http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2025%20Lib%20Dem%20Eastcott.pdf)

Yet SBC says for Kent Road....



Quote
As the Ward Councillor’s for Eastcott had not made any direct requests for the resurfacing of Kent Road, these works were identified through internal processes only. Peter Greenhalgh as Cabinet Member for Sustainability, Strategic Planning, Property and Transport signed off the Business Case and associated scheme list in May 2010.  Peter Greenhalgh as Cabinet Member for Sustainability, Strategic Planning, Property and Transport signed off the Business Case and associated scheme list in May 2010.


and Stafford Street....

Quote
As the Ward Councillor’s for Eastcott had not made any direct requests for the resurfacing of Stafford Street, these works were identified through internal processes only.



....which suggests to me that the lib dem claim: "Road surfaces: Actions not words" is either deliberately misleading or a direct lie.


I wonder if its author is willing to identify themselves and defend their statement?

Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on May 17, 2011, 09:00:25 PM

So for clarification Chris, can you confirm that you have not communicated verbally with the head of traffic management, any other council officers or any other administration councillors who may have had any influence over the issue?


Contained in Q3 isn't it?

Quote
3. Please could you supply me with details of any contact that you
have had from Chris Watts
that may have caused you to disregard
"months of influence and persuasion" with regards the second
Kingshill crossing cause. This request should cover any written or
email communications, particularly the time and date, and any
transcripts or recordings if you have them.

What's more relevant is the question:  If Chris Watts has had any contact with highways, whether orally or written, on what date did it begin?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 17, 2011, 09:06:05 PM


S'funny, I thought this lib dem election leaflet clearly showed that they were responsible for the resurfacing of Stafford Street and Kent Road?


([url]http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2025%20Lib%20Dem%20Eastcott_Thumb.jpg[/url]) ([url]http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2025%20Lib%20Dem%20Eastcott.pdf[/url])

Yet SBC says for Kent Road....



Quote
As the Ward Councillor?s for Eastcott had not made any direct requests for the resurfacing of Kent Road, these works were identified through internal processes only. Peter Greenhalgh as Cabinet Member for Sustainability, Strategic Planning, Property and Transport signed off the Business Case and associated scheme list in May 2010.  Peter Greenhalgh as Cabinet Member for Sustainability, Strategic Planning, Property and Transport signed off the Business Case and associated scheme list in May 2010.


and Stafford Street....

Quote
As the Ward Councillor?s for Eastcott had not made any direct requests for the resurfacing of Stafford Street, these works were identified through internal processes only.



....which suggests to me that the lib dem claim: "Road surfaces: Actions not words" is either deliberately misleading or a direct lie.


I wonder if its author is willing to identify themselves and defend their statement?




Sorry Geoff but exactly what the contents of the FOI request that resulted in this response.

As in my previous post, it is easy to only request certain information and, as not all of a councillors interaction with officers is done through direct emails or letters, it would be pertinent if verbal requests or lobbying were included within such FOI requests.



So for clarification Chris, can you confirm that you have not communicated verbally with the head of traffic management, any other council officers or any other administration councillors who may have had any influence over the issue?



Contained in Q3 isn't it?

Quote
3. Please could you supply me with details of any contact that you
have had from Chris Watts
that may have caused you to disregard
"months of influence and persuasion" with regards the second
Kingshill crossing cause. This request should cover any written or
email communications, particularly the time and date, and any
transcripts or recordings if you have them.


What's more relevant is the question:  If Chris Watts has had any contact with highways, whether orally or written, on what date did it begin?


And as they say “we can find no evidence of any correspondence or other communication” does not mean that there was not any. So it’s a fair question for Chris to clarify himself. But you are also right about what date did Chris begin
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 17, 2011, 10:18:59 PM

So for clarification Chris, can you confirm that you have not communicated verbally with the head of traffic management, any other council officers or any other administration councillors who may have had any influence over the issue?


Probably the best thing would be for you to put an FOI in to satisfy yourself and publish. Save us from a tit for tat exchange. I look forward to the result. Can be no argument then. :)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 17, 2011, 10:24:42 PM

Sorry Geoff but exactly what the contents of the FOI request that resulted in this response.



I posted the FOI on the new SBC website.

http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/ (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/)

Unfortunately it did not return a confirmation with the 6 questions attached. I have requested that the FOI officer email me a copy of the questions and hopefully will get them tomorrow. You could FOI to get a copy of the questions also . ref FOI 101000274792
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Richard Symonds on May 17, 2011, 10:59:46 PM
I was in Eastcott this afternoon delivering Library books to the elderly.

The so called second Kingshill crossing is still very much on their agenda and the conversation has changed from that very nice Councillor Pajak to they have been talking about it for years.  One of them even said it had been talked about for the last SIXTY YEARS at a time when there was considerable movement of Army Lorries on the hill and parked up at the bottom of the steps where the newish housing is now located.  It was also alleged that 106 money was available as part of the planning permission for the flats further down the road.  What happened to that then?

And how long has Councillor Stan Pajak represented this ward and promised to do something about this issue?

One of my elderly ladies is shortly to attain her ninety sixth birthday and she does not expect to see it in her lifetime, so the time for excuses is now over and the Liberals have to deliver this crossing and not just another leaflet promising it, again!!

I think there are a lot of questions still to be answered and Stan and Co are now faced by someone who will continue asking them on behalf of his fellow residents in Eastcott.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 18, 2011, 05:41:12 AM
Richard, be honest, how many people have you spoken to who actively long for this much vaunted second crossing?

More than 10?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: bobwright on May 18, 2011, 07:53:54 AM
Just a short answer to part of the issues raised

Town Cluster members have had many meetings under the Parking Advisory Group label and the Central Cluster label

I proposed Resident Parking tickets to be similar to Disabled Badge type issue with no finish date. I stated this at public meetings and else where. This was to overcome administration costs. The tickets were intended for the property and not transferrable. Residents Parking has been raised many times in Cluster meetings.

Cherry Picking elements of the work is not helpful. We have used Residents Parking in the Central Ward leaflets for years but think working with the Eascott Members on this issue makes sense whether under the Cluster label or otherwise..
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 18, 2011, 11:00:33 AM

Sorry Geoff but exactly what the contents of the FOI request that resulted in this response.



I posted the FOI on the new SBC website.

[url]http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/[/url] ([url]http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/[/url])

Unfortunately it did not return a confirmation with the 6 questions attached. I have requested that the FOI officer email me a copy of the questions and hopefully will get them tomorrow. You could FOI to get a copy of the questions also . ref FOI 101000274792


Got the questions back from the council this morning and appended to post as requested.

http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/ (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/)

Got to say that I am very impressed with the speed of the FOI response considering it was only submitted on Sunday. :)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 18, 2011, 11:19:05 AM
Anyone know how much each of these FOI requests costs us all on average?  :-\
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 18, 2011, 01:33:52 PM
Got to say that I am very impressed with the speed of the FOI response considering it was only submitted on Sunday. :)


Don't give it  :) as the Liberals may start  claiming its all a political plot against them to answer your FOIs in 24hrs?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 18, 2011, 01:45:07 PM
Got to say that I am very impressed with the speed of the FOI response considering it was only submitted on Sunday. :)


Don't give it  :) as the Liberals may start  claiming its all a political plot against them to answer your FOIs in 24hrs?

I see you're still keeping an open mind on this issue, Ringer  :wink:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 18, 2011, 05:59:18 PM

So for clarification Chris, can you confirm that you have not communicated verbally with the head of traffic management, any other council officers or any other administration councillors who may have had any influence over the issue?


Probably the best thing would be for you to put an FOI in to satisfy yourself and publish. Save us from a tit for tat exchange. I look forward to the result. Can be no argument then. :)


Chris, sorry I’m not trying to start a tit for tat exchange. Having looked on the internet it seems that FOI requests do not cover verbal conversations. Therefore the only person able to answer this question is yourself. Clearly if you don’t want to answer the question that’s up to you, I was just seeking to clarify the matter.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 18, 2011, 06:06:39 PM

Sorry Geoff but exactly what the contents of the FOI request that resulted in this response.



I posted the FOI on the new SBC website.

[url]http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/[/url] ([url]http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/[/url])

Unfortunately it did not return a confirmation with the 6 questions attached. I have requested that the FOI officer email me a copy of the questions and hopefully will get them tomorrow. You could FOI to get a copy of the questions also . ref FOI 101000274792


Got the questions back from the council this morning and appended to post as requested.

[url]http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/[/url] ([url]http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/[/url])

Got to say that I am very impressed with the speed of the FOI response considering it was only submitted on Sunday. :)


Chris thanks for the link to your FOI request. I think the point I’ve tried to make is answered in my previous post regarding what verbal conversations may have taken place and FOI requests.
Although I would accept that telephone request would have been recorded I doubt if an informal conversations with officers have been recorded in the same way?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 18, 2011, 09:59:50 PM
Posting the link to Chris Watts Blog can only drive up traffic to it  :coffee:
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Chris Watts on May 18, 2011, 10:14:49 PM
Posting the link to Chris Watts Blog can only drive up traffic to it  :coffee:


ssssshhhhhhhh :wink:

http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/ (http://chriswatts1967.wordpress.com/liberal-leaflets/lib-dems-claim-credit-for-kent-road-stafford-street-resurfacing/)
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: andy newman on May 19, 2011, 01:44:22 PM
While we are recalling the Leslie Pinfield affair.

It might also be worth bringing up the "Focus on Central Ward" leaflet for the by-election in Central Ward in January 2004, when Michael Dickenson was a sitting Lib Dem councillor.

The Lib Dem candidate was Becky Poole, who lived in Albion Street.

Their leaflet claimed:

"Becky doesn't just talk about the environment - she has led the campaign against housing development at Coate"

This claim was completely false, and I contacted Jennifer Saunders at the time, who was actually leading the Coate Water campaign, and as a result the Adver did run an expose of the Lib Dem lies. Not only was Becky Poole not the leader, she was completely unknown to the Save Coate campaign
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: andy newman on May 19, 2011, 01:51:36 PM
BTW, if the councillor attendance figures from Komadori http://www.komadori.co.uk/archives/councillor-attendance-2010-summary.shtml (http://www.komadori.co.uk/archives/councillor-attendance-2010-summary.shtml)

are accurate, the Eastcott Lib Dems don't work quite as hard as they say they do
http://swindonroundabouts.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/lib-dems-in-eastcott-working-hard-all-year-round/ (http://swindonroundabouts.wordpress.com/2011/05/19/lib-dems-in-eastcott-working-hard-all-year-round/)

Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: 20Eyes on May 19, 2011, 02:32:51 PM
Which is rather a damning indictment of the LibDem's closest rival from the Eastcott electorate - they'd rather have representation that doesn't turn up half the time than a Labour person speaking on their behalf.

I've always liked Eastcott people.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 19, 2011, 07:56:28 PM
Andy

What an effective way to use a Graph.  >:D
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Richard Symonds on May 19, 2011, 07:58:12 PM
Andy

What an effective way to use a Graph.  >:D

and doesn't it make the Liberals look good?   >:D
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 19, 2011, 08:36:38 PM
Yeah much  better than the two other parties in central and old town & lawns.  >:D
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Bogomil on May 19, 2011, 09:09:51 PM
Yes but strange that my graph got moved to a new thread... no indication why when this was in reply to something posted in this thread.

Would have been nice of admin as a courtesy to explain why they did that ?
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Ringer on May 24, 2011, 12:13:33 AM
It looks like there is a bit of work to do in Eastcott in 2011

http://swindonbackgarden.wordpress.com/ (http://swindonbackgarden.wordpress.com/)

Interesting blog post on Cllr Peter Greenhalgh.
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Richard Symonds on May 24, 2011, 12:56:07 PM
It looks like there is a bit of work to do in Eastcott in 2011

[url]http://swindonbackgarden.wordpress.com/[/url] ([url]http://swindonbackgarden.wordpress.com/[/url])

Interesting blog post on Cllr Peter Greenhalgh.


Yes and it makes very plausible reading, but action always speaks louder than words!
Title: Re: Coming Soon: The Truth about Eastcott 2011
Post by: Geoff Reid on July 25, 2011, 11:04:21 AM
Yes but strange that my graph got moved to a new thread... no indication why when this was in reply to something posted in this thread.

Would have been nice of admin as a courtesy to explain why they did that ?


Because your graph concerned the sinking electoral fortunes (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/topic,7610.0.html) of the Libdems in Eastcott, (and was therefore eminently suitable to start a new thread discussing the same), and very little to do with the lies being told by the Eastcott Liberal Democrats - which is what this thread is about  :)

Perhaps I have this wrong - was your intent was to link the LibDems shrinking share of the vote with the increased awareness in electors of Liberals propensity towards political lying?, if so I'm sorry.

Sorry for the late reply. Been busy doing other stuff.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Geoff Reid on February 27, 2012, 10:34:26 AM

http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/topic,8355.msg76140.html#msg76140 (http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/topic,8355.msg76140.html#msg76140)

They're at it again, is there an election coming?.......Oh.

Bump.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Richard Symonds on February 27, 2012, 09:01:41 PM

[url]http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/topic,8355.msg76140.html#msg76140[/url] ([url]http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/topic,8355.msg76140.html#msg76140[/url])

They're at it again, is there an election coming?.......Oh.

Bump.


Geoff forgive me in drawing your attention to the fact that Stan Pajak was a very enthusiastic supporter of the motion detailed at the bottom of your posts.

In the debate Stan referred to his recent visit to Auschwitz and stated there had been 3m Jewish deaths there!  Sadly his ability to get his facts correct are even wrong here as the revised number of deaths at Auschwitz has been reduced to 1.3m of which 90% were said to be Jewish.

Source:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auschwitz_concentration_camp)

The phrase bandwaggoning comes to mind!!
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Mart on February 28, 2012, 05:30:52 PM
You do suppose they know the war is over and, this is important, Germany lost and was properly punished by the standards of the day.

I would never advocate forgetting, I struggle with forgiving, but isn't this about 70 years behind the curve as an election stance?

There is something grubby about seeing political types grab a righteous cause and turn into a club for hitting things and people.

Just to make it clear, practical and political considerations aside, I'd have nuked the feckers and trundled East and think Patton's road accident was convenient. I loathe all extremists and crave a world where apathy is an allowable and safe option.

Ooops, mouth has gone all foamy.
Title: Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
Post by: Muggins on February 29, 2012, 08:50:19 AM
Never mind Mart, I couldn't agree more.