Author Topic: Whitworth Cemetery.  (Read 6180 times)

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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #20 on: April 30, 2014, 09:49:50 AM »
Mugs, there are s o many things I could say but wont, the fact is that the cemetery is where it is, and the water problem is there also, the fact that the council has almost washed its hands of the problem is there also.
Your remarks about the dead and where they are, to me are disgusting, If you have any relatives, don't you want to pay respects to them, obviously not,
Your comments about where they are and how people do pay respects etc, to my mind is disgusting.
Your comments about immigrants also is disgusting, if you have something to say then say it, or as in your case, go on facebook and tell people to watch out for racist ukip leaflets...
You want to take a step backwards, you don't run this world, you don't lead the town on anything and it doesn't evolve around you for that matter.
Read the daily express today, immigrants pay around £1 tax a week. proud of that then, or get your union to sort it out.. :WTF:
So go away, take off your been there , done it, lead from the front, T Shirt and go and have a poo, as your full of it..

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #21 on: April 30, 2014, 11:54:14 AM »
Keith might also want to take a look at the companies involved in the Oasis leases. They have no financial backing but they are using their "tremendous success" in Swindon to promise Paignton and Milford Keynes the earth. In fact their success consists of getting SBC to remove the clauses that protect publicly owned property in Swindon from having a change of plan, use and ownership!
SBC have, once again, been nicely "tucked up"! The normal denials and claims that an obviously foolish scheme was a success, will duly follow.
With all the income from Wi-Fi, Class Solutions and now the leisure facilities, perhaps Council Tax will be eradicated for Swindon residents?

You may be interested to know T that several people have told me they EXPECT a Council Tax reduction as a result of the Stealth Tax Green Waste charges and Loss of Services with the introduction of Fortnightly Waste and Recycling collections.

I wonder how the Leader of the Council would reply to that one?
All my posts are my own opinion and do not represent any political organization or group

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #22 on: April 30, 2014, 12:14:27 PM »
Ko quote:  I also acknowledge the bit about a conservation area, but surely the needs of the cemetery come first don't they"

NO THEY DON'T!

If you don't understand the geology, then you won't understand the problem and why they can't easily capture the water.

The water, which just keep coming and coming. and if you cannot understand the importance of preserving meadows then this discussion is a lost cause.

Keith has told you that when anyone requests burial there they are told of the potential risk and this has been going on for years, so if people are sensible they won't  use it.

Personally I have never been able to see the importance of buried human remains,i.e. dead people, they are after all - dead! So long as they are given proper send off to enable 'closure'.

Those that I have lost never spent much of their time in cemeteries or crematoriums when they were alive, why would I want to visit them there after they've gone?  When I want to remember them, I go to the places they liked to be or held some special significance for them.  Or bake their favourite cake or watch their favourite film, they come to me in a thousand ways - not in the flipping cemetery. I'm never closer to my mother than when I'm bent over the kitchen sink or at some other household task.

I was about to say that I hope that when I go, no one bothers to go to the cemetery on my behalf, but I won't be buried in one - I'll be scattered somewhere no doubt. 

I would however like to be remembered  by taking a good walk around Seven Fields, then we'd both get something out of it - except I'd be dead! That's providing, of course, that Seven Fields hasn't been dug up to put in something to help save the dead for daft people who chose to put their loved ones there, despite being told they'd get a soaking.

Can't think you'd want to be there anyway Ko, have you seen how full it is of dead immigrants?

I think you lack sensitivity on this issue M and need to be very careful about what you say or you will cause offence.

Almost all the members of my family have been cremated with the exception of the burial of my Paternal Grandmother in 1961 and my maiden Aunt, her daughter, in 1993, who desired to be with her. 

I personally believe that as this is a Council Cemetery and they are responsible for it they must take action to ensure that it is properly maintained and that includes appropriate drainage and the geology of the site has absolutely nothing to do with it.
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #23 on: April 30, 2014, 12:43:11 PM »
Then you are mistaken about the geology. 

Maybe what should have happened is that they should have thought about the growth of the town when it was first put there and studied the site for expansion /geology at the time.   

I've explained the geology of the site as best I can with my knowledge of it, taken from the words of a better expert than I.

Over the years the council have made several attempts (said this before too) to mitigate the problem and stopped deep burials on the land. If someone insists on having a cremation burials, the council explain the problem and if they further insist, the council gets them to sign to say they understand the problem. 

For some reason you and Ko, have just discovered the problem - others have been on it's case for years.
As it happens at one time in the corner of the field below was also a small sewage works, the town are also outgrew that and it was moved.

I'm not going to list how much work and research and community surveying we've done over the years to keep Seven Fields for the people that live around here, and the wider population.  If it takes another uprising so be it. 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #24 on: April 30, 2014, 04:11:59 PM »
M we are not talking about seven fields, we are talking about The Whitworth Road Cemetery and the Council has an OBLIGATION to maintain it on behalf of whoever bought plots there, be they alive or dead.

The geology is irrelevant and the Council need to take responsibility whatever the problems.

I must confess I am somewhat surprised that you make excuses on their behalf on such a sensitive subject.  My dead and buried Aunt would have more than something to say to you if she were still alive!!
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #25 on: April 30, 2014, 06:24:49 PM »
I'll say it again that the geology DOES matter in this case and we ARE talking about Seven Fields, because if they try to get that water off the Cemetery they will have to do it by digging up one or two of the Seven Fields.

I can promise you that as soon as the weather dries up so will the cemetery. 

Again, like I said it's been a problem for a long time.  SBC and Keith are not offering you 'excuses' but the facts, and the possible solution.  No more burials there, only cremations and warning people prior to that and only accepting those burials if people want to proceed and know the consequences in wet weather.

The problem is only at the bottom end and the cemetery to my knowledge has always been well maintained. 

I would have been delighted to meet your deceased Aunt, no doubt we would have got on a like an house on fire, and even is she didn't like my personal opinion on a subject maybe would have accepted it and agreed to differ.  Probably acknowledging that I am entitled to opinion the same as she herself would have been. 

She might also have acknowledged that, in the case of Seven Fields,  I know what I'm talking about!

As to offence, I look forward to hearing from Geoff on that one.



Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #26 on: April 30, 2014, 06:44:38 PM »
The grave diggers have known about the water level issue for years. not 2 or 10 years. but ever since the first grave was dog in the then new extension.

Just and I mean just below the surface it's waterlogged. Even during summer the burial pits fill at 3 ft deep. If it wasn't for water pump ,coffins would float half way up.

A plot would be dug, pumped, dug and pumped repeatedly until the job was done. The pump would stay on until just before the burial turned off for the duration turned on again to clear any water remaining after that  then refilled pronto.

I'm sure several drains were dug none of which worked.

I suspect after a very wet winter that the ground is still very much waterlogged.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #27 on: April 30, 2014, 07:56:30 PM »
I'm a bit lost tbh.

Of course it would be ideal if a cemetary didn't flood - but this one does, and according to Mugs, people have known about it for a while - and prospective families have been warned about it for a long time. The underlying problem appears to be geological - and I'd imagine, any permanent fix would be ultra expensive (not to mention either environmentally damaging or intrusive).

We all know the council has bugger all cash. Presumably even back when they had more money, if this is a known problem, a solution was still considered unaffordable. That means expecting one to materialise now might appear to be unlikely

Part of the cemetery floods after heavy downpours. I guess that must be occasionally inconvenient for visitors.

Quote
Surely its not a teaser to put in some sort of drainage system to take the water away, or is that considered a waste of money, at a time when they can spend over £700k on pipe dreams about wifi, or even over a million to put a temp roof on the MI.

With the greatest respect, wouldn't most people sooner see such serious money as is available spent in such a way as to benefit the largest possible number of the living Ko?

If I were a councillor, I'd hope to look into your situation and to see if there was an easy solution like cleaning a drain - and to get back to you quickly and to treat your enquiry sensitively. But if the solution was spending more than a few hundred pounds (even if I could access even that - and guessing that putting in new drains would cost substantially more), I'd have to say that I could probably think of other probably more urgent causes.

I can empathise with how you feel - but perhaps there isn't an easy solution to this problem for the time being?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #28 on: May 01, 2014, 08:10:03 AM »
you've got it Tobes!   :thumb:

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #29 on: May 01, 2014, 09:46:35 AM »
thank you for that reply Tobes,
you ask if money should be spent when it could be spent on better things for the living, like the car park, or when they found a million out of nowhere for the mi roof, that really helped the living..
Yes the problem has been known for ages, so why hasn't a solution been found, I haven't looked yet, but at the back of the cemetery, access should be available to the brook that runs along the whole of that area? can it be diverted into that?
I did look yesterday, and the security fence at the back of the cemetery is broken in at least two places, so it cant be hard to find a way .!!
The cemetery is kept at a reasonable situation, but I go there every two weeks to cut the grass around about 8 plots, as its not done on regular basis. and to do that when the plot is under water is hard..
To make some people happy, I can also say that yesterday, the water levels had gone down, but were still evident..

Offline Tobes

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #30 on: May 01, 2014, 10:10:42 AM »
Quote
I can also say that yesterday, the water levels had gone down, but were still evident..

Here's hoping that represents a little bit of good news. It must be frustrating if you want to tend the grave but can't.

Maybe there's another way of thinking about it Ko. I'm guessing that Whitworth cemetery is sited on an old watermeadow. They're really beautiful places, and because of the annual flooding, they provide a habitat for all sorts of wildlife that you don't get in dry and well drained places. That might be a small positive right there: I can imagine the visitors to the cemetery seeing and enjoying wildlife they might not see elsewhere. Maybe in its own way, it makes the cemetery a little bit special?

I'm not a religious man, but I wonder if I had an sense of awareness about my earthly remains after death, I might rather like the idea that my body was part of the natural ebb and flow of nature. 'Earth to earth, ashes to ashes, dust to dust' - basically you came from nature, and you go back into it. Water is part of nature. I think I'd find something comforting knowing that sometimes as I laid in my grave, clean fresh rainwater might occasionally wash over my remains.

Keep your pecker up.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Weebleman

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #31 on: May 01, 2014, 10:31:53 AM »

Maybe there's another way of thinking about it Ko. I'm guessing that Whitworth cemetery is sited on an old watermeadow. They're really beautiful places, and because of the annual flooding, they provide a habitat for all sorts of wildlife that you don't get in dry and well drained places.

Sounds like an ideal new location for the water voles to me  :bottom:

Coat!

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #32 on: May 01, 2014, 11:01:25 AM »
Once again many thanks Tobes, nice to get a reply which has something to say. Ill just keep bashing on, every time I go, Ill take my waders and accept that somethings in life are not what they should be.... :coffee:

Offline Muggins

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Re: Whitworth Cemetery.
« Reply #33 on: May 01, 2014, 02:33:06 PM »
Tobes Quote:
Maybe there's another way of thinking about it Ko. I'm guessing that Whitworth cemetery is sited on an old watermeadow. They're really beautiful places, and because of the annual flooding, they provide a habitat for all sorts of wildlife that you don't get in dry and well drained places. That might be a small positive right there: I can imagine the visitors to the cemetery seeing and enjoying wildlife they might not see elsewhere. Maybe in its own way, it makes the cemetery a little bit special?

Thanks for mediating Tobes, as you have shown an interest. The meadows at Seven Fields - none of them are Water Meadows although the main three fields may have been at one time and the place is certainly wet when it rains - they certainly are 'Herb rich unimproved meadows' and when we started the group 98% of this sort had been lost since the war - each year another 2% are lost and so you can see why we fought so hard, not just to save them from development, but from many other uses.  Most of the SBC officers at the time were right behind us and we really had a better chance  to save them than they did - they needed people all over the country to 'take ownership' of their local spaces i.e. keep raising the awareness etc.  they did not expect us to work in them, but we did and they supported that - but SBC did most of the maintenance and our stuff was Add on. We had many a spat with SBC at the time. 

Anyway the three original fields that were taken (a long time before we came along) to make the Cemetery and its planned extension were called North Leaze on the old maps - the Leaze apparently signified that it was left alone meadow, pasture, etc. as opposed to Lea which is cultivated meadow pasture etc.  We suspect they were used in the war for crop growing but not improved in any way - no fertiliser etc.  At some point they were also used for a playing field - we think until the Playing Fields we have now were set out in the 50/60's. Since then they had gone back to meadowland but not so diverse as  the main three fields, subsequently they have caught up - seeds blowing over and dogs carrying seeds through on their coats etc. from the rest of the Reserve and they are the fields with the rarer of the Orchids we have growing.

The cemetery is too high up the hill to have been a water meadow, however 7F's and the surrounding communities all have springs. Whether that is why the Cemetery is like a bog I don't know, but boggy it is, as Teaboy explained.  You would sort of need a big water vacuum cleaner to suck it all up.

I may not have made it clear that, as you know Whitworth Road cemetery is directly off Whitworth Road and runs down the hill, the fields at the bottom of it are in the Reserve status. The Cemetery is an added valuable habitat and enjoys visits from the species we have in the Reserve too.   



 
« Last Edit: May 01, 2014, 04:06:26 PM by Muggins »
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)