Author Topic: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?  (Read 27362 times)

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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #60 on: January 13, 2014, 01:22:18 PM »
Quote
One thing that hasn't been mentioned is that no more capacity in terms of wagons etc., will be required until they hit 45% take up so if they only have a 15% take up what will happen to the staff and equipment?  Surely there are costs that need to be explored and examined here?

Very interesting Richard. Appendix 1 which is the 'Comparison of Financial Implications 2014-15' quite clearly states that the contract payment to SCS for the collection of Green Waste is a net £758k ie this excludes the £92k 'profit' in the contract price.

To provide a service covering 15% of the 83k homes in Swindon was budgeted to cost £791k ie £33k more than the existing service. The council envisaged a revenue of £436k based on 15% take up at £35 per annum.

To provide a service covering 20% of 83k homes in Swindon was budgeted to cost £702k ie £56k less than the existing service. The council  envisaged a revenue of £664k based on a 20% take up at £40 per annum.

One might reasonably ask why the October and December budget figures are so different, and challenge the comment that 'Further work was done on route optimisation which reduced the rounds required to deliver the service' - I wonder what would have happened if Scrutiny had simply 'nodded' the paper through.

Amazingly no one seems too concerned that the cost of the bins will now be met from general council tax receipts and be paid for by all residents irresepctive of whether they particpate in the scheme.

I am also surprised that no one seems to be fazed that SBC had intended to make a 'profit'of £232k from residents who purchased the bins. The 8,715 bins including delivery etc cost £204k

Offline OTTed

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #61 on: January 13, 2014, 07:15:34 PM »
8,715 bins

for 210k population

say +/- 90k households [guess work. anyone know?]

say 30-50k gardens??

........one hell of a lot of trips to the tip :-(

p.s. could we compost the Mayor perhaps, just asking?

Offline Mickraker

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #62 on: January 13, 2014, 10:33:17 PM »
Green waste now will recyling be the next charge that will pop from the magicians bottomless bin  :-\
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #63 on: January 14, 2014, 10:26:39 AM »
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say +/- 90k households [guess work. anyone know?]

SBC use a figure of 83,000

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #64 on: January 14, 2014, 10:36:03 AM »
a labour councillor, last night, told the people at the meeting, (west Swindon forum), that a future labour council would scrap all charges for green waste etc, so now you know who to vote for, (he didn't explain how he would make up the lost revenue).

Offline OTTed

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #65 on: January 14, 2014, 01:28:37 PM »
Thanks Des - Andrew Dilnot would be pleased with my estimating skills.

That is one hell of a lot of trips to the tip indeed.

Or I suggest a huge number of garden bags in black bins. With the price of fuel, amount of nice cars, especially those that are leased, there is little incentive to dirty one's boot.

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #66 on: January 14, 2014, 02:07:30 PM »
Going back to the bins, at the scrutiny meting, the council officer, said that they had bought 11,200 of them at a cost of £21 each..

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #67 on: January 14, 2014, 03:38:16 PM »
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Going back to the bins, at the scrutiny meting, the council officer, said that they had bought 11,200 of them at a cost of £21 each.

Kohima - in Appendix 1 at the bottom of the page under note 5 the officers have estimated that of the 83,000 homes in the Borough 20% will sign up to the service, that is 16,600 homes.

Of the 16,600 homes, officers believe that only 70% willrequire a bin with the balance using bags. The annual charge will be the same for households using bags or bins BUT yuo can't choose which you use.

So 70% of the 16,600 is 11,620 which is the number of bins SBC will/have ordered at a unit cost of £22.40.

Of course what will be an annoyance to SBC is the fact that they will not be making a profit from the sale of the bins as was apparent in the first budget where bin cost was £195,000 but to you and me £436,000. 

It was worse for the taxpayer who was using the bags, where the cost of bags under both budgets was sub £9.50 per household but they were going to be charged the same 'one off ' charge of £40

Offline Cllr. Jim Robbins

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #68 on: January 14, 2014, 07:35:16 PM »
Kohima,

Just to clarify, I did mention at the meeting that we would be looking to cut Forward Swindon in order to fund the Green Waste service, but I was drowned out by Cllr Dickinson next to me...


Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #69 on: January 15, 2014, 07:38:37 AM »
Kohima,

Just to clarify, I did mention at the meeting that we would be looking to cut Forward Swindon in order to fund the Green Waste service, but I was drowned out by Cllr Dickinson next to me...

Yes you politicized the meeting you naughty boy Jim!!   :bottom:

The Conservatives would say they are above such things!!

As regards the bins it was my understanding they actually cost £18 odd and the £22.40 is the delivered to household cost.

Judging by the reaction at the West Forum this will be another example of a Cost Saving that will actually Cost more in the long term.  As the cost of the bins will actually be covered by the first four years of charges thereafter this represents a Council Tax increase by Stealth!  Where else are such increases to be achieved? 

and what I still fail to understand is how on the expected take up (15 - 20%) there will no further need for additional capacity in the system until the figure reaches 45%?  The differences in those figures I regard with concern and a further indication of just how much thought and consideration has actually been given to this subject.  The words indecent haste come to mind and despite the Administration's ability to exercise 'Creative Accounting' this has Failure written all over it!!
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #70 on: January 15, 2014, 08:05:37 AM »
"As the cost of the bins will actually be covered by the first four years of charges" 



Since when has this council stuck to any one plan for four whole years????

If they didn't keep chopping and changing things might be a whole lot cheaper and cost efffective.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #71 on: January 15, 2014, 09:44:36 AM »
"As the cost of the bins will actually be covered by the first four years of charges" 



Since when has this council stuck to any one plan for four whole years????

If they didn't keep chopping and changing things might be a whole lot cheaper and cost efffective.

Agreed!!
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Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #72 on: January 15, 2014, 08:43:08 PM »
"As the cost of the bins will actually be covered by the first four years of charges" 


Since when has this council stuck to any one plan for four whole years????

If they didn't keep chopping and changing things might be a whole lot cheaper and cost efffective.

Absolutely. Make plans and predict savings over a period of time. Write off the initial costs of implementation as a 'one off' expenditure. Change the plan before the savings are realised, write off more implementation costs and predict more future savings ........ and repeat.

Lots of predicted savings, but few actual savings. This is the local government way.

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #73 on: January 15, 2014, 08:55:32 PM »
On the theme of the last three posts can someone please explain to me how money can be saved by making SCS a stand alone company and again when it is brought back in house?

Surely you would have to be an extremely 'creative accountant' to achieve a saving both ways or is this something peculiar to Swindon Borough Council?
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #74 on: January 15, 2014, 09:03:44 PM »
Considering this has happened so often , the savings should be considerable.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #75 on: January 15, 2014, 09:26:34 PM »
Considering this has happened so often , the savings should be considerable.

eh?
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Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #76 on: January 15, 2014, 09:45:51 PM »
Surely you would have to be an extremely 'creative accountant' to achieve a saving both ways or is this something peculiar to Swindon Borough Council?

I worked at SBC for 20 years and it was like this for at least the last 10. It works like this:=

Year 1 - You have 100 staff earning £20,000 each. Total wage bill = £2,000,000. You decide to cut staff to 80 reducing next years wage bill to £1,600,000. You predict that it will save you £400,000 per year, but is going to cost 20 X £10,000 (£200,000) in redundancy payments this year. Write this off as a one off payment. If you want to make it sound really good say that it will save you £2,000,000 over 5 years. Cost in Year 1 = £200,000.

Year 2 - Realise that you can't manage with 80 staff, so employ 20 people through an agency at £30,000 per year. Wage bill = 80 x £20,000 + 20 x £30,000 = £2,200,000. Additional cost in Year 2 = £200,000. Realise that agency staff are costing you money and decide that it would be cheaper to recruit more permanent staff next year. Predicted saving next year = £200,000.

Year 3 - You are now back where you started with 100 permanent staff, but having wasted £400,000. Now repeat the process.

Predicted savings that turn in to additional costs that make it easier to predict more savings that won't materialise next year. I am not sure if it is unique to SBC, but it has been happening for at least 10 years.


Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #77 on: January 16, 2014, 07:39:41 AM »
If that is true Spunky and I have no reason to disbelieve you I hate to think how much this green waste caper is going to cost?

And as they do things in a more considered way in St Albans they do not do any collections when it holds up the traffic as it does in the Oxford Road and on Kingshill!!

and I used to think the Conservatives were the Party of business!!

well maybe they were in my parents generation.  :idiot2:
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #78 on: January 16, 2014, 10:31:19 AM »
Has SCS repaid the start up loan they got from the council, or is this yet another council give away......

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Green Waste Bins - was this really a consultation?
« Reply #79 on: January 16, 2014, 11:18:14 AM »
Good question Kohima - it's only £1.4 million so don't worry !!! ::)