Author Topic: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan  (Read 14594 times)

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Offline Tobes

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Re: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan
« Reply #40 on: February 27, 2014, 06:26:42 PM »
 :clap:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan
« Reply #41 on: February 27, 2014, 11:18:57 PM »
I know the last two posts will appear cryptic. but there is a sound reason for that. 

Please be patient and remember that you didn't hear it here first :)

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Offline Alex

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Re: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan
« Reply #42 on: February 28, 2014, 11:20:31 AM »
You also do have to bear in mind that if someone is feeling so depressed and anxious that he or she wants to commit suicide then closing a car park will only push the person to try somewhere else. Many attempts have been made on the railways and M4 bridges and other high places. And many attempts are made in cars while on motorways.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan
« Reply #43 on: February 28, 2014, 04:34:47 PM »
Well, I kind of glad you've raised that Alex.

I've wanted to get this off my chest for a long time, as its an attitude to suicide which I've heard a number of times since I became interested and personally involved in the subject.

On the positive side, it acts as an important palliative to those who've been effected by the loss of a loved one and helps assuage their sense of guilt and powerlessness. Undoubtedly, in some cases, someone IS absolutely determined to kill themselves, and no reasonable action or intervention is going to prevent them from doing it. However, if it was always the case, the corollary would be that counselling or treating potential suicides would be a waste of time... But that quite obviously isn't true, is it?

Suicide and the motivations for those who take that step are myriad in nature - in just the same way that there is no one cause, symptom or treatment for depression or any other of the vast range of mental illness.

As I've said from the beginning, my motivation wasn't a campaign to completely remove ALL risk of suicide. My objective was to mitigate the risk posed by a building which had become a magnet for vulnerable people.

The girl I grabbed off of the parapet spoke to me at length whilst we were waiting for the police. She was drunk. There were other serious issues effecting her life which remain confidential between her and I. But many of these issues were temporary - or magnified in her mind by alcohol that moment by what had happened that day. She was determined that she was going to kill herself - but only took action in that relatively brief window. She's still alive. She hasn't gone on to kill herself there - or anywhere else for that matter. But she could quite easily on the day in question for that brief period in which the anxiety reached its crescendo. Its entirely possible she could have found somewhere else to do it if the building was unavailable, but she was in no shape to traipse across town looking for one. Even then, if she had, her state of mind would have changed in that time frame - and if it required effort, say climbing a fence or barrier, it may never even have translated from the thought of suicide to taking overt action in the first place. By definition, if you make something childishly easy, its far more likely to happen

I'm a strong believer in simply making suicide difficult enough to try and stop people acting upon an urge or 'in the moment'. Some people don't seem to believe that this is an important factor, but I do. I'll give you an example which I think lends credence to my point: Legislation in 1998 was introduced to limit the number of packs of aspirin or paracetamol which could be bought 'in one go' in an attempt to reduce the number of people using them to take fatal overdoses. Cynics at the time pointed out that it would be simplicity itself for a 'determined' suicide to simply either stock up over time, or visit a number of different stores. But that view shows a fundamental misunderstanding in the emotions thought-processes taking place within the mind of many of those contemplating suicide.

The BMJ was interested in the impact of the legislation and published the following paper which shows the unambiguous results:

Quote
Results Suicidal deaths from paracetamol and salicylates were reduced by 22% (95% confidence interval 11% to 32%) in the year after the change in legislation on 16 September 1998, and this reduction persisted in the next two years. Liver unit admissions and liver transplants for paracetamol induced hepatotoxicity were reduced by around 30% in the four years after the legislation. Numbers of paracetamol and salicylate tablets in non-fatal overdoses were reduced in the three years after the legislation. Large overdoses were reduced by 20% (9% to 29%) for paracetamol and by 39% (14% to 57%) for salicylates in the second and third years after the legislation.

... so much so in fact, that the BMJ would like to see further reductions...

Suicide is a complex area with so many aspects to it that the choice of how, when and why is a difficult one to quantify or understand: but it seems to me very clear that certain places provide such easy access and opportunity that people use them to 'force issues' and resolve their internal conflicts. If suicide could so easily be characterised as an unstoppable urge, I can think of any number of quick, clean ways to end my life... but it seems to me that choosing high places or places of obvious peril (like railway tracks) involve something else: whether thats the person having hope that they will be stopped, that someone will show that they are valued - or even that they will survive the fall with serious injuries, I can't say. But its simply not as simple as saying 'they were determined to kill themselves, they went there and they did it'. From what I've seen and heard, most jumpers stop and consider their actions before they finally commit to them. If they were 'determined' to kill themselves like some kind of lemming-zombie, the Samaritans would be obsolete, police negotiators would be out of a job and no councillor, psychiatric or psychologist would bother with anyone expressing deep depression and suicidal thoughts, surely?

If jumpers were 'determined' to kill themselves, why are so many successfully talked down when they are noticed by the police? Are we to assume that 'they weren't the serious ones'...?

I don't claim that preventing suicide full stop is simple. But easy steps to make it even slightly less likely look pretty obvious to me.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan
« Reply #44 on: March 11, 2014, 05:55:42 PM »
Thought this would interest anyone here?

http://www.healthwatchswindon.org.uk/news/%E2%80%9Cmending-net-prevent-suicide%E2%80%9D-conference
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Tobes

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Re: Our Tobes - A Good Samaritan
« Reply #45 on: June 01, 2015, 09:46:32 PM »
FINALLY!!!!

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/13217580._Unfit__Wyvern_car_park_to_be_gone_by_end_of_year/

 :clap: :clap: :clap:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'