Author Topic: West Swindon Skate Board Park  (Read 37423 times)

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Offline Muggins

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Re: Is the Saltway Skate Park Nick Martin's Personal Vanity pRoject?
« Reply #80 on: February 20, 2014, 11:09:41 AM »
The question itself is easily answered. The £240,000 is for a TOWN-wide skatepark.

Swindon dare spend no more than a Neighbourhood  sized £60,000, because other area of the town are waiting for one.

i.e. they won't be the same size - probably nowhere near the same.

£60,000 is the going rate for a small skate park, probably includes some on-going maintenance, too. It is so different from Wifi, it shouldn't be even mentioned in the same breath. A whole different set of officer are involved.

If the money is there, it will be spent and if West Swindon kicks up, it can come here, where we have been waiting longer.  Come to think of it the Wifi money could have paid for a skatepark in every area in Swindon.
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Offline Amesaquz

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #81 on: November 19, 2014, 05:11:14 AM »

Great to hear that our request maybe implemented in next release!Any idea when it will be?

Offline Outoftowner

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #82 on: November 19, 2014, 12:28:27 PM »
Amesaquz looks like another spambot Admins.
What's it all about?

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #83 on: November 21, 2014, 02:13:59 PM »
Irrespective of the rights and wrongs of building a Skate Park, it will be built next to the Old Renault Building and it is going to be in the wrong place!!

It should have been built next door to the Link where there are Bus Links, Parking, Medical Facilities and Police.  There are no Bus Links outside Renault and the nearest stop for the no 19, every half hour weekdays and hourly Saturdays and Sundays, is outside the Fire Station.

But then it couldn't go to the Link two years ago because it was part of the great Leisure Giveaway Tender and anyway why would GLL want it as it will only ever cost them Money?  So it is best left to the Council Tax Payers to fund instead.

This is what you get with your Privatizing Conservative Administration Give Away the Potentially Profitable bits and leave the rest to be funded by Tax Payers. 

I Do Not and Will Not Accept that Our Leisure Facilities could not have been Made Cost Neutral, it is just down to incompetent management by the so called party of business!  But now it is too late and we will get what we will get!!
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Offline Muggins

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #84 on: November 21, 2014, 02:27:32 PM »
If they put it near the Link, near all the transport facilities it would attract youth from all over Swindon.  I don't think it's meant to be that big a facility - just neighbourhood sized. i.e. mainly just for the youth of that area.

One that can be left unsupervised.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #85 on: November 21, 2014, 03:10:23 PM »
If they put it near the Link, near all the transport facilities it would attract youth from all over Swindon.  I don't think it's meant to be that big a facility - just neighbourhood sized. i.e. mainly just for the youth of that area.

One that can be left unsupervised.

Yes M left unsupervised and unprotected!

Gordon has the figure wrong, it is actually £65,000, but then it is only money and the Conservatives would far rather waste money on a Skate Park which is more than likely going to be a white elephant than on CHILDREN's Centres which they would prefer to close rather find the money to keep them open.

Now surely you are not going to suggest that we close Children's Centres so we can build Skate Parks M? or are you?
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Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #86 on: November 21, 2014, 04:13:12 PM »
But then it couldn't go to the Link two years ago because it was part of the great Leisure Giveaway Tender and anyway why would GLL want it as it will only ever cost them Money?  So it is best left to the Council Tax Payers to fund instead.

I don't have any problem with my council tax money part subsidising leisure facilities although I do have a problem with leisure facilities being given away on the basis of 'saving' our money but the level of council tax in Swindon remaining at its highest ever level.

Correct me if I am wrong, but if a private company can run leisure at even a modest profit presumably SBC also ought to be able to do so?

Offline Tobes

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #87 on: November 21, 2014, 05:05:16 PM »
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Now surely you are not going to suggest that we close Children's Centres so we can build Skate Parks M? or are you?

I'm not defending the closure of childrens centres Richard, but how long would £65k run a single one for? A week or two maybe?

In which case, its a false statement to say that childrens centres are being closed to build skateparks really, isn't it?

I think this is an issue where people are allowing their inherent distrust to colour their judgements a bit too much.

I think I'd be a little nervous if I had a skate-park right next to my house... but a few hundred yards away in a public space already use by kids to hang around in? Objectively, I think I'd be less bothered; if the kids feel a sense of ownership for the place, problems will more than likely be pretty minimal.

Free, healthy amenities and positive things for young people are in pretty small supply in Chavopolis. I find it serially difficult to have a problem with this project.

I'm on the record ashaving my own criticisms of Mr Martin - but in my view, most of Gordon's objections look pretty weak and apply to any play park. Should we be placing a moritorium on building any for the same reasons?

 :-\
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Offline Muggins

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #88 on: November 21, 2014, 06:23:04 PM »
Was about to answer Richards  question with the same answer Tobes.  £60 would probably cover the Centre managers job and maybe a part time admin for a year.

Let's put it this way £60k spent a skateboard park would leave something concrete for the kids in more ways than one. £60K spent on one would be £60 well spent and solid.

£60k on a Children's Centre is more airy fairy - do we know how well they are doing? - now ours has been shoved out into the private sector, for all we know that £60k could be their mark up for the profit they take for doing it.

Children's Centres (Surestart) have been around long enough now to know if they are in fact doing the job they were set up to do and for the same client group. I'm not romantic about their outcomes.

Are the Mums getting any better prenatal care, encouragement and parenting skills. Are the babies - toddlers being delivered at Nursery school with better (basic) life skills than they were before the Centres opened?

Or have they changes so much that they just offer a 'different way' for all the service and care they got before??

I fancy the councillor that got that £60 for the skate park will be able to point to it in the future and say I got that for the kids of the area long, after Children's Centres have packed up and gone home.

I don't know enough about the Centres to care really, they set up, put their fortress turrets up and no news has come out since - with one very short lived and small exception and that's gone now.

That's another problem with 'businesses ' taking over they don't care for and don't see why they should communicate with the communities they are in.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #89 on: November 21, 2014, 07:48:23 PM »
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Now surely you are not going to suggest that we close Children's Centres so we can build Skate Parks M? or are you?

I'm not defending the closure of childrens centres Richard, but how long would £65k run a single one for? A week or two maybe?

Free, healthy amenities and positive things for young people are in pretty small supply in Chavopolis. I find it serially difficult to have a problem with this project.

I would have to agree.

I appreciate Richard's argument, but using the same logic it would be impossible to justify children's centres too. You could argue that the money spent on children's centres could be used to cut the waiting list for hip replacements, or access to better cancer drugs or feed hundreds of starving children in Africa. 

If public money was allocated purely on greatest need or greatest benefit we would create a perfect health service and if they was any money left, a perfect education system, perfect fire service, perfect police force, safer roads etc, etc.

If public money was allocated in this way there would no libraries, no childrens centres, no museums, no art galleries. The majority would be paying for services used by the few. Providing the odd non urgent facility here and there' allows everyone to feel like they are getting something in return.

Recreational facilities contribute to quality of life and provide a bit of variety.
 


Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #90 on: November 22, 2014, 05:37:03 AM »
Correct me if I am wrong, but if a private company can run leisure at even a modest profit presumably SBC also ought to be able to do so?

My very point Geoff!!
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #91 on: November 22, 2014, 05:43:49 AM »
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Now surely you are not going to suggest that we close Children's Centres so we can build Skate Parks M? or are you?

I'm not defending the closure of childrens centres Richard, but how long would £65k run a single one for? A week or two maybe?

But it is another £65,000 we do not have for things that I personally regard as being more important 

So which is the most important to you, Tobes having a Skate Park, or using the money towards the Maintenance of Children's Centres when Lead Member Fionuola Foley by her own admission does not know what the effect of her decision will be and expects the Social Services to cover it?


I think this is an issue where people are allowing their inherent distrust to colour their judgements a bit too much.

What on earth has that got to do with it?

I think I'd be a little nervous if I had a skate-park right next to my house... but a few hundred yards away in a public space already use by kids to hang around in? Objectively, I think I'd be less bothered; if the kids feel a sense of ownership for the place, problems will more than likely be pretty minimal.

I'm on the record ashaving my own criticisms of Mr Martin - but in my view, most of Gordon's objections look pretty weak and apply to any play park. Should we be placing a moritorium on building any for the same reasons?

The issue here Tobes, as I am sure you know, is that Nick Martin arbitrarily decided to site this on the old Saltway School playing fields over Tewkesbury Way from Spencer Close and the good folk who live there made that very point, but Nick Martin wasn't interested!!  He comprehensively lost his temper at a West Swindon Forum when discussing this and even threatened one of the residents with his solicitor.  He has already mentioned his solicitor to me but he did not lose his temper in doing so!!  Going back to the Skate Park it took a hard campaign to get the Council to look at other sites, but not the Link for the reasons I have already mentioned.  This would have been the ideal place for it as there is already a lot of noise from the Mucca pitches and it is an established leisure site.  The only thing that the Rivermead site has in its favour is that it is far from housing.
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #92 on: November 22, 2014, 06:03:28 AM »
Was about to answer Richards  question with the same answer Tobes.  £60 would probably cover the Centre managers job and maybe a part time admin for a year.

Let's put it this way £60k spent a skateboard park would leave something concrete for the kids in more ways than one. £60K spent on one would be £60 well spent and solid.

£60k on a Children's Centre is more airy fairy - do we know how well they are doing? - now ours has been shoved out into the private sector, for all we know that £60k could be their mark up for the profit they take for doing it.

Children's Centres (Surestart) have been around long enough now to know if they are in fact doing the job they were set up to do and for the same client group. I'm not romantic about their outcomes.

Are the Mums getting any better prenatal care, encouragement and parenting skills. Are the babies - toddlers being delivered at Nursery school with better (basic) life skills than they were before the Centres opened?

Or have they changes so much that they just offer a 'different way' for all the service and care they got before??

I fancy the councillor that got that £60 for the skate park will be able to point to it in the future and say I got that for the kids of the area long, after Children's Centres have packed up and gone home.

I don't know enough about the Centres to care really, they set up, put their fortress turrets up and no news has come out since - with one very short lived and small exception and that's gone now.

That's another problem with 'businesses ' taking over they don't care for and don't see why they should communicate with the communities they are in.

You make my very point of using this £65,000 in this way very well M, I am glad we are in agreement on this issue!!
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #93 on: November 22, 2014, 06:04:34 AM »
Quote
Now surely you are not going to suggest that we close Children's Centres so we can build Skate Parks M? or are you?

I'm not defending the closure of childrens centres Richard, but how long would £65k run a single one for? A week or two maybe?

Free, healthy amenities and positive things for young people are in pretty small supply in Chavopolis. I find it serially difficult to have a problem with this project.

I would have to agree.

I appreciate Richard's argument, but using the same logic it would be impossible to justify children's centres too. You could argue that the money spent on children's centres could be used to cut the waiting list for hip replacements, or access to better cancer drugs or feed hundreds of starving children in Africa. 

If public money was allocated purely on greatest need or greatest benefit we would create a perfect health service and if they was any money left, a perfect education system, perfect fire service, perfect police force, safer roads etc, etc.

If public money was allocated in this way there would no libraries, no childrens centres, no museums, no art galleries. The majority would be paying for services used by the few. Providing the odd non urgent facility here and there' allows everyone to feel like they are getting something in return.

Recreational facilities contribute to quality of life and provide a bit of variety.

It is all a matter of Priorities Spunky!!
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Offline Muggins

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #94 on: November 22, 2014, 09:36:16 AM »
Another reminder of why children's Centres or rather Sure Start Centres were set up in the first place.

They were exclusively to be put in areas of greatest need. They were to tip the balance for children from less structured backgrounds.

To tip the balance of 'a good start'  for mum's and babies - from conception to Nursery school.  i.e. as soon as women knew they were pregnant until the baby started Nursery school, which until then had been the only general place that developmental problems had been picked up.  The Centres gave 'authority' the place to pick these up BEFORE children started school.   Some of the problems were very basic but big problems for teachers - who should after all be teaching and not changing nappies, chasing naughty toddlers around classrooms, and trying to communicate with children who couldn't. i.e the MAIN aim was to deliver children to the reception class at school with a basic life skills. 

Of course along the way, they picked up problem families and I believe did help with some of the family problems.  Outside of as well as in Surestart a lot of money was going towards basic adult education and confidence building too.  Education in the schools was supposed to be improving so that the generational thing was hopefully being broken down. 

This was in Tony Blair's middle England days - I take it Middle England must have griped they were not getting the same, but frankly, they shouldn't have needed it. Well not as much anyway - Yes, yes, I know better off families have their problems, broken families, illness, disability but they also had more brains and resources to cope.

Anyway enough pressure must have been brought to bear and suddenly we had children centres everywhere and the 'difference' and 'advantage'  was taken away and the money had to go further.

Would live to see the figures and reports on how this went, maybe it's over to the Joseph Rowntree Trust web site  this afternoon.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #95 on: November 22, 2014, 11:19:17 AM »
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It is all a matter of Priorities Spunky!!

Hmmm - Richard, as far as I can see, rationally and logically it isn't really, is it?

Its like claiming that the thousand pounds spend on making sure SBC workers have access to coffee machines is only at the expense of childrens centres too.

It's a question of balance - and you shouldn't let your deep antipathy for certain members of the administration blind you to that.

£60k isn't going to save a single children's centre. It is more than probably not even from the same pot and certainly not on anything like the same scale. What else would you like taken out of expenditure? (This should illustrate the dangers of rhetoric!) The thousands it costs each year to maintain playparks and playgrounds for example? Should SBC not plan to install or subsidise the maintenance of any play parks or other facilities for youngsters going up in the new developments across town?

Whats a 'good' £60k of saving to complain about, and whats a bad one?

There's not a lot of purpose designed things to keep our aboriginal 'yoot' occupied in this town. £60k on something as simple as a skate park seems sensible enough to me, as long as it lasts a reasonable length of time and gets reasonable use. If the £60k had come from a pot of £600k which was also going to be spent specifically on skate parks, I'd be with you all the way.

Groping for reasons like assuming that the concrete will be too poor etc. looks like finding justifications after the event (as do questions like 'what happens if someone gets hurt?' - I mean, what happens if any kid gets hurt in any park or facility??) I'm afraid that and other comments means there's the whiff of nimbyism about some of the objection to me.

I'd be concentrating on the real waste that happens within the administration - perhaps starting with the legal costs Mr Martin has run up as a result of his apparently careless cake-hole. The waste of abandoned or delayed council meetings due to politicking, the £500k+ of wi-fi, or the inevitability of crossing needing to get put back in at Regents - ie. all the things which leave the tax payer with nothing to show or which have come about through sheer incompetence.

Quote
I think this is an issue where people are allowing their inherent distrust to colour their judgements a bit too much.

What on earth has that got to do with it?

A lot, in my view.

I bet I could easily come up with a loooooooooooooooooong list of items of relatively minor expenditure with arguably poor justification when compared to saving children's centres. But they won't be on the radar of some people who essentially don't want scruffy kids playing near their homes.

Keep fighting the fight Richard, but I think there are more worthy battles.
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Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #96 on: November 22, 2014, 12:36:11 PM »
Another reminder of why children's Centres or rather Sure Start Centres were set up in the first place. They were exclusively to be put in areas of greatest need. They were to tip the balance for children from less structured backgrounds.

My girlfriend tells me that Ofsted found they were missing their targets in this respect. Penhill and Pinehurst children's centre were well attended by families from this target group, but other centres weren't. Ofsted found that some centres were mostly attended by bored middle income mums who were using them as free toddler groups.

The centres which were seen to be meeting their original purpose survived in some form, eg. 'Penhill and Pinehurst' and 'Moredon' children centres was commissioned out to 4Children, although I don't know if these outsourced centres offer the same or equivalent service.

Children Centres were a means of delivering certain services. Closing the centres doesn't necessarily mean that these services have been cut completely. Young families are still supported by health workers, social services, family planning clinics, outsourced children centres, schools etc.

'Children Centres Closed - Desperate Families Abandoned' makes a better headline than 'Delivery of Children's Services to Change'

Children centres provided services to those who attended, not necessarily those in greatest need.

Perhaps a better question would be:-

Which is more important - a skate park or a free toddler group for wealthy mums?


Offline Muggins

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #97 on: November 22, 2014, 03:21:47 PM »
That's about how I see it Spunky, although like I said, we all know that some families in better off areas will need those service you mention from time to time, they are more able to realise their need and g out and find it for themselves. 

And of curse the centres' do go out and do work in the homes, not just in the centres themselves, the centres being a 'hub' rather than the be all and end all.

Back to the skate parks, theoretically the good thing about having smaller local skateboarding facilities in neighbourhoods, is that the youth that use them are local youth, so usually known. If they are up to no good it doesn't take long to track down their parents. 

Back to provided 'toddler groups'.  Before surestart and in our case the NSPCC Centre (now gone) young Mums would create their own toddler groups, run them, seek advise from Swindon Childs carers/Play Alliance etc, get themselves set up properly and functioning within the law.  Usually they might seek the help of the local community worker to point them in the direction. The borough and others would help out with funding and mostly they had a bit of that and raised funds themselves via dues, raffle etc. SBC funding has all but gone.

Within a year of the paid provision coming here the local toddler groups/Mums and babies Groups closed, or at least didn't start up, they just took advantage of those provided and were encouraged so to do. 

Since then we have had a dearth of volunteers  setting up their own groups and coming forward for anything and when they do come they know nothing and need far more support in setting anything up. And it's harder to do now anyway, but that's a chapter on health and safety, child protection, more expensive insurance.

It is my theory that those young women who set up those toddler groups, then went on to run play groups and then the youth groups, and on and on through their life changes, are now lost to us. And it's one reason why we haven't got the volunteers coming forward that we once had - that and they they all have to work now.




 

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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #98 on: November 22, 2014, 09:23:49 PM »
It's a question of balance - and you shouldn't let your deep antipathy for certain members of the administration blind you to that..

'Balance', such a wonderful word and I completely agree, but it is nothing to do with individuals and everything to do with incompetence and we have that in abundance within Swindon and I will attack it wherever it is and whoever is responsible for it!

Whats a 'good' £60k of saving to complain about, and whats a bad one?

I suggest a good use of £65,000, please note the correct figure. would be to clean up Eastcott, I cannot believe what a tip it is and how inactive your Liberal Councillors are in doing something about it!!  I have even reported Graffiti myself and as I walk up from town to Kent Road I know what I am talking about.

Look have you ever heard the expression "look after the pennies and the pounds look after themselves"?  I suggest that SBC could learn from this expression!

And to add to the mix we have yet to find out the True Cost of the Privatisation of Leisure and when we do I suggest we will be far from happy about it.  And you wonder why I round on individuals Tobes?  These decisions don't get made on their own you know or are you suggesting the Administration are doing a great job or that we can do without them?

And just to add something else The Conservatives used their majority at the last Council meeting to vote themselves a 1% increase in their allowances.  At least the usually irrelevant Liberals votes against that one!!  So the Conservatives would rather take this increase than spend it towards the retention of Children's Centres.  Now you all know where their priorities lie!!
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: West Swindon Skate Board Park
« Reply #99 on: November 22, 2014, 09:28:12 PM »
That's about how I see it Spunky, although like I said, we all know that some families in better off areas will need those service you mention from time to time, they are more able to realise their need and g out and find it for themselves. 

And of curse the centres' do go out and do work in the homes, not just in the centres themselves, the centres being a 'hub' rather than the be all and end all.

Back to the skate parks, theoretically the good thing about having smaller local skateboarding facilities in neighbourhoods, is that the youth that use them are local youth, so usually known. If they are up to no good it doesn't take long to track down their parents. 

Back to provided 'toddler groups'.  Before surestart and in our case the NSPCC Centre (now gone) young Mums would create their own toddler groups, run them, seek advise from Swindon Childs carers/Play Alliance etc, get themselves set up properly and functioning within the law.  Usually they might seek the help of the local community worker to point them in the direction. The borough and others would help out with funding and mostly they had a bit of that and raised funds themselves via dues, raffle etc. SBC funding has all but gone.

Within a year of the paid provision coming here the local toddler groups/Mums and babies Groups closed, or at least didn't start up, they just took advantage of those provided and were encouraged so to do. 

Since then we have had a dearth of volunteers  setting up their own groups and coming forward for anything and when they do come they know nothing and need far more support in setting anything up. And it's harder to do now anyway, but that's a chapter on health and safety, child protection, more expensive insurance.

It is my theory that those young women who set up those toddler groups, then went on to run play groups and then the youth groups, and on and on through their life changes, are now lost to us. And it's one reason why we haven't got the volunteers coming forward that we once had - that and they they all have to work now.

And what did the Swindon Labour Party do about it!!

Chocolate Fire Guards come to mind!!
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