Author Topic: Yeah....OK !  (Read 3942 times)

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Offline boothill

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Yeah....OK !
« on: May 22, 2013, 11:18:01 PM »
The most absurd justification -- and now the only one used by the British government -- is that the 10,000 UK troops are in Afghanistan to defend Britain's national security interests by keeping our streets safe from terrorism -- despite there being no evidence whatever that any Afghan intends to launch such an attack. In truth, the war in Afghanistan -- alongside other wars Britain has participated in over the past decade --  has made this country more insecure, not less, as was shown by the huge military operation which had to be mounted to protect the London Olympic Games in Summer 2012.

I smell something again


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Offline Outoftowner

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Yeah....OK !
« Reply #1 on: May 23, 2013, 08:33:09 AM »
I think that the events yesterday in Woolwich show that having troops in lawless countries does not prevent terrorist attacks in this country.
The fanatics use the "foreign crusader" card to recruit more fanatics. In their world no foreign or rather, western, involvement allows them the nirvana that is Syria.
Let them get on with it!
I have 10 tins of Tiger Beer to bet that as soon as all western troops are out of Iraq and Afghanistan they will return to chaos.
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #2 on: May 23, 2013, 10:22:10 AM »
I have no idea why our  force are sent to do these things, I let Mr Muggins worry about that.

However, I've often wondered if having it to do has saved our Forces from being closed altogether.
i.e. if we had no enemies we would need no forces and probably the financial systems would fall accordingly.

Nothing like getting the economy going - a good war.  All those guns and tanks to be bought etc.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline boothill

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #3 on: May 23, 2013, 11:29:21 AM »
'However, I've often wondered if having it to do has saved our Forces from being closed altogether'.

Violent death in a foreign (?) land at the hands of a brainwashed savage  v  JSA.......no brainer really



gizza Tiger , pull up a sandbag, and pass the Woodies !
« Last Edit: May 23, 2013, 01:29:36 PM by boothill »
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #4 on: May 23, 2013, 03:48:54 PM »
Yeh, I get that its better not to have an enemy and to die at their hand, but there would be a lot of upset tax payers if the forces where sat on their hands doing nothing, well not upset by the doing nothing, but just being on alert.

But on the other hand there would be a lot of forces people upset having no job and  another load of taxpayers at not having any reasonable defence ready to go should there be a need, and let's face it there would be a need soon enough if numbers were that low.

It's one thing saying that having our forces in any country does not stop terrorist attacks, we might be saying something different if those forces there not there, instead of a once in a while attack, it might be a lot worse.

As it is unlikely that we will ever know the full story on either side, I'd like to think that them that do have that information and have to make these awful decisions, do so in wisdom.....
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Outoftowner

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Yeah....OK !
« Reply #5 on: May 23, 2013, 04:32:18 PM »
Sorry Muggins, very little wisdom is shown by some. The Weapons of Mass destruction on 15 minutes notice that Saddam Hussain had were played up as a threat to the west. Anyone in the know wouldn't consider an arsenal of gas canisters deliverable from Iraq to Europe by anything that Saddam had at his disposal was impossible. Politicians and their conniving advisors made it all out to be something else for reasons best known to themselves.
The original Al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan were rubbed out, along with their occupants, long before regular western troops went there as "peacekeepers".
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Offline Outoftowner

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Yeah....OK !
« Reply #6 on: May 23, 2013, 04:34:49 PM »
Sorry Muggins, very little wisdom is shown by some. The Weapons of Mass destruction on 15 minutes notice that Saddam Hussain had were played up as a threat to the west. Anyone in the know wouldn't consider an arsenal of gas canisters deliverable from Iraq to Europe by anything that Saddam had at his disposal was possible. Politicians and their conniving advisors made it all out to be something else for reasons best known to themselves.
The original Al Qaida training camps in Afghanistan were rubbed out, along with their occupants, long before regular western troops went there as "peacekeepers".
What's it all about?

Offline Muggins

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #7 on: May 23, 2013, 06:14:23 PM »
So wise you said it twice!

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Simon

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #8 on: May 23, 2013, 09:12:27 PM »
I think that the events yesterday in Woolwich show that having troops in lawless countries does not prevent terrorist attacks in this country.

I think we've known that for a long time already. Think back to July 2005. "We" were already apparently winning the "war on terror", having kicked the Taliban out of their position in government in Afghanistan, and likewise with the Baathists in Iraq, when suddenly four people in London killed themselves and anyone else who happened to be sitting close enough to them on the bus/tube.

That'd be the war on terror being won then, would it?  :uglystupid2:

I'm rather worried about the potential fallout from the Woolwich event. In the past couple of days I've been seeing otherwise rational people on my facebook feed saying that if "they" don't like "our" foreign policy then "they" should go back to wherever they came from.

Being a born and bred resident of a nation of immigrants, and not liking much of current government policy, I'm still trying to work out where I should go back to. Making a wild guess at where my ancestors came from, I think probably 50% of me should go to Scandanavia, about 20% to Germany, and I have no idea where the rest is from.

When suitable technology is available, could someone please gather up my parts, stitch them together, and re-animate me please?

But seriously, I think some people are trying to stir up some serious hatred, please don't get caught up in it.

That soldier in Woolwich didn't deserve to be butchered in revenge for whatever crime his murderer projected onto him, any more than countless civilians in Iraq and Afghanistan deserved to be killed in revenge for a bunch of nutters who worked out how to crash a plane into a skyscraper.
We are all in this together, but some of us are more in it than others (with apologies to George Orwell)

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #9 on: May 24, 2013, 07:50:29 AM »
Back in early 2009 I wrote the following

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I recall a former Prime Minister declaring that following the invasion of Iraq and the downfall of Saddam Hussein, Britain was a ‘safer’ place to live.  We now know that was a lie but the reality of life is that the danger to the UK is already resident within our borders.  According to intelligence sources there are over 2,000 known terrorist planning atrocities. If they are known, then stop them now.

Four years later I think it right to ask the same question I asked then - is our country any safer as a result of the military excursions undertaken in the stated aim of 'bringing democracy' to Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan?

On the 14 October 2010 then Prime Minister Gordon Brown made the quite absurd claim that the conflict in Afghanistan was necessary to ‘protect’ the streets of Britain.

And when 5 soldiers were killed by a 'rogue' Afghan policeman Gordon Brown claimed their deaths had a purpose – the continued protection of the streets of Britain.  Such a claim was insulting, for in the same week as they died a Muslim woman who pleaded guilty to two counts of terrorist activity was ‘punished’ with a two year prison sentence – terrorist must be laughing at the leniency of such a sentence; such a punishment will not make the streets of Britain safer.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #10 on: May 24, 2013, 02:59:00 PM »
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Four years later I think it right to ask the same question I asked then - is our country any safer as a result of the military excursions undertaken in the stated aim of 'bringing democracy' to Iraq, Libya and Afghanistan?

In a non linear way... yes, yes it is. I don't think its ever really been about bringing democracy - thats just a sopt to keep the American electorate happy paying the cost of the munitions and the repariations. The real benefit is felt in other ways.

I think the 'war' in Iraq and Afghanistan has had a major strategic impact that just about everyone seems to have missed.

We know that al Quaida had designs to create mayhem in the west long before either war was fought - 9/11 remains their 'greatest' achievement of their stated objective. And I think that marked the point at which the west devised its current policy: It seems pretty apparent to me, that despite the muddying caused by oil, middle eastern despots supported by the west, Israel etc, that a showdown between an essentially secular western philosophy and culture and a barbaric, superstitious, deeply repressive and rapidly expanding fundamentalist interpretation of Islam was inevitable.

Now we can argue about the rights and wherefores and the hows and whys and moral rectitudes of the mess - but liberal western values are never going to sit squarely with a people (and an expanding group at that) who believe in the subjugation of women, in the summary execution of homosexuals and in the judicial severing of limbs for 'crimes' such as heresy or blasphemy. That the entire world could effectively be held to ransom by people sharing the sort of stone age beliefs as many of these radicalised fundementalists would be a far far worse option than the Americans having hegenomy, would it not? Of course, history shows that western policy must share much of the blame for the growth of radical Islam - but we are where we are. That particular genie can't be put back into the bottle now, can it?

That so many (even if they are a minority) within our own society appear to share or at least fail to condemn such stone-age thinking was, I suspect, a real strategic wake-up call. IF terrorism had continued in the same vein as 9/11 and 7/7, the security forces would have been forced to curtail civil liberties across the board - or enact draconian policies which would have turned their own populations against them, as well as usurping the entire legitimacy which a democratic system is supposed to bestow.

Instead, I think they were far more subtle than we give them credit. I think they deliberately created a battlefield - one otherwise missing in this asymmetric war: they created a focus for every wannabe jihadist. Instead of death in the streets of London or Birmingham, the war is being fought within two countries, the for who's populations, war has been a tribal way of life for countless centuries. It is to those battlefields that the would-be martyrs and zealots flock - and its there they die in a war of attrition. If not there, where would they turn their attentions next?

Regarding the question of how 'safe' we are, despite the horror of the last few days, I feel immeasurably safer now than I did at the height of the IRA campaign. Statistically speaking, we all are.

Just my potted thoughts on the matter. War is wrong. But once it has begun, I guess all you can do is chose the path of 'least wrong'. In terms of the defeat of radical Islam, I can't say I'd prefer the alternative. It is a philosophy which, as enacted by its proponents, seems to stand in opposition to the secular values I hold dear .
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Alex

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #11 on: May 24, 2013, 04:21:10 PM »
Tobes, that makes a lot of sense. 

What is also becoming more obvious is that these wars are apparently religious power struggles if you listen to the relative of Eddie Izzard who had fathered 90 children in order to create a world where Muslims took over .

 However, the "other side" (our government and the US) believes them to be power struggles of democracy over  dictatorship.

Our wise and articulate tribal EDL and BNP feel its a racial issue.

I could add in so many other factions.

I remember 9/11 and the day after in London I asked my boss what his reaction would be if he had any say. He said ( as expected) "Bomb the bastards". He was otherwise supposedly intelligent and a strategic thinker.

 So in more than a decade, still nothing has changed.

Looks to me that these are wars for the sake of conflict based on tribalism and with all sorts of hidden agendas, and no-one is entirely sure they are fighting for  the same reason.

Responsible education and a complete change of attitude is the only solution. Perspective is the difference. If people didn't see themselves as nationalistic  and belonging to small geographical areas this would help. If people could simply see themselves as citizens of the World they may see the similarities we have with each other rather than the differences.




Offline Tobes

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #12 on: May 24, 2013, 06:35:26 PM »
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Looks to me that these are wars for the sake of conflict based on tribalism and with all sorts of hidden agendas, and no-one is entirely sure they are fighting for  the same reason.

Responsible education and a complete change of attitude is the only solution. Perspective is the difference. If people didn't see themselves as nationalistic  and belonging to small geographical areas this would help. If people could simply see themselves as citizens of the World they may see the similarities we have with each other rather than the differences.

Hmm... Yes and no. One of the reasons I loathe and despise religion so much is the false thinking it promotes. The black islamist murderer who beheaded the squaddy spoke with a thick London accent. He is of Nigerian origin. Yet as he attempted to justify his actions, he mentioned western troops killing muslims 'in our land'; regardless of the schisms which see muslims sects fighting constantly amongst themselves, from Syria to Iran and Iraq and regardless of the fact that Afghanistan is a land as foreign to him and his language and culture as any. He and his religious brethren aren't being nationalistic. They think they are defending an entire set of cultural values. I think thats the way we should start looking at it too so we can separate out modern moderate Islam from the insanity of the radicals. But it is a clash of ideals. It is probably the last polarising head on collision of philosophy and values of the modern globalised world after the fall of communism: Those who believe in a set of values shaped by a medieval outlook - and those who believe in a shared rather than imposed system that is predicated around a tolerance of difference.

These people are no more open to logic than Rob. They are indoctrinated into an extremist culture in which acts like this are not only justified but seen as a religious duty, for which a supernatural being will reward them in an afterlife. Fighting is literally a way of life for large numbers of people sharing similar ideals within of the tribal cultures of Afghanistan and Pakistan (let alone those weened on the chaos and violence of Nigeria, Siera Leone, Ethiopia etc.). How does one engage with or respect a culture or set of ethical values in which adherants can justify a young man being knocked over by a car and then having his head hacked off with a kitchen knife in front of women and children?

I don't see any difference in the destructive evil of that kind of thinking than the worst excesses of Fascism, communism or the rationale of the likes of Mugabe, Pol Pot, Hitler or Idi Amin. They represented ideologies which could not be reasoned with. I'm not opposed to trying - but I seriously doubt the possibility of achieving anything in the face of such ugly, bestial ignorance and religious certainty.

Its a strange world in which we live.

I for one though am grateful that brave young men and women from democratic countries are prepared to put their lives on the line in foreign lands - and I can't help wondering of the hundreds of sympathisers to the Islamist cause they have killed would not have otherwise committed atrocities in the cities of the west. They have the desire, the motivation and sometimes the means. At least this war gives them a battlefield in which to wage their jihad. Personally, I'd prefer them meet their maker in the dust of Afghanistan than on the streets of our cities, strapped to a bomb or holding a stanley knife to a hostages throat on some plane. For that, I am extremely grateful for the sacrifices our armed forces are making.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline boothill

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2013, 07:29:19 PM »
'A friend of one of the suspected killers of a soldier butchered in a London street was arrested by counter-terrorism officers on Friday after going on television to allege that Michael Adebolajo was tortured in Kenya and harassed by MI5 – who asked him to spy for them.'

A few questions spring to  mind ...

  Would an obviously 'sane' person who had been involved in unreported nefarious acts appear on TV and possibly implicate himself ?

  As this arrest was carried out in such an almighty rush, could it have been that the 'authorities' dearly wanted to obviate the possibility of the press and media gleaning more details of past events from this person ?     

  Am I wrong in assuming that the public and 'government alike' are never, and will never be, privy to the full power and political sway held by the 'security' services ?

  Is it  the threat of terrorism alone that should be of concern to the British public, or could there be yet another 'home grown' threat ?

 





 
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ph1lc

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2013, 10:11:34 PM »
What worries me most about this whole affair is the fact that one of the killers was arrested for terrorist offences three years ago in Kenya. Personally I hope they did torture bastard. MI5 then let him off the radar.

Now we have Theresa May saying we have to resurrect the failed Communications Bill.

A typical response -the authorities let the guilty off the radar. Now they need more surveillance of the law abiding amongst us.

Offline Outoftowner

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Yeah....OK !
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2013, 10:22:23 PM »
The conspiracy theorists are already all over this  story. TS'ers will be horrified if Rob joins in here.
What's it all about?

Offline boothill

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2013, 10:34:28 PM »
'Looks to me that these are wars for the sake of conflict based on tribalism and with all sorts of hidden agendas, and no-one is entirely sure they are fighting for  the same reason'.


                                                                                      Milwall v Wigan    Alex  ?
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #17 on: May 27, 2013, 09:36:40 AM »
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  As this arrest was carried out in such an almighty rush, could it have been that the 'authorities' dearly wanted to obviate the possibility of the press and media gleaning more details of past events from this person ?   

I don't think so. If they wanted - REALLY wanted - to hide the truth by obviating the possibility of press coverage, and if the security forces really do have the power and motivation to which you allude, that guy would have been taken out of circulation before he had the chance to speak to the media. No nefarious security services lead operation would have left arresting him until after the interview, for the simple and obvious fact that it would have generated all that publicity. It was plod which cuffed him in a public place. MI5 would simply and quietly have bundled him into the boot of an unmarked car.

As usual, we are looking at the relatively normal development of events in a largely pluralist democracy - in which cock up always takes precedence over conspiracy.

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Personally I hope they did torture bastard.

Its sad that you should say that, because its that kind of attitude which in a radical's eyes entirely justifies what he said after he committed the killing; "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Actions (and attitudes) have consequences. I'd have hoped that something a more sophisticated western viewer might have over and above the ideology of a fundamentalist was the ability to appreciate that... Its the oldest truth of all. Two wrongs don't make a right - they are generally only used to continue to justify more wrongs. Thats why moderate westerners wring their hands over the continuation of operations in the East, whilst the radicals on all sides will continue to justify acts in response for generations to come.  :(

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Now we have Theresa May saying we have to resurrect the failed Communications Bill.

A typical response -the authorities let the guilty off the radar. Now they need more surveillance of the law abiding amongst us.

On that we are agreed. To turn the UK into a surveillance state would create exactly the environment which these radicals would want - paranoid and totalitarian.... and, most stupidly and predictably of all, one which is completely simple to work around: simply don't use mobiles or the internet. Dur! In the meantime,despite the fact that we're constantly being told that these people make up a tiny minority of a minority, EVERYONE in the Uk ends up being treated as a potential suspect - with the obvious certainty of thousands of innocent people being unfairly targeted or even criminalised.

That this same government stood in opposition to ID cards for many of these well established and considered arguments would be a tad ironic, would it not?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2013, 09:59:32 AM »
Tobes: Its sad that you should say that, because its that kind of attitude which in a radical's eyes entirely justifies what he said after he committed the killing; "An eye for an eye, a tooth for a tooth". Actions (and attitudes) have consequences. I'd have hoped that something a more sophisticated western viewer might have over and above the ideology of a fundamentalist was the ability to appreciate that... Its the oldest truth of all. Two wrongs don't make a right - they are generally only used to continue to justify more wrongs.

Well said, there is absolutely no reason or excuse for us to act in that way. 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Outoftowner

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Re: Yeah....OK !
« Reply #19 on: May 27, 2013, 10:47:59 AM »
There is no need to introduce new laws at all;

A foreign national who incites violence should be deported, no ifs or buts. They can choose what country they go to and bye bye.

A British national who incites violence should be charged for that offence and taken to court. If that person has been abroad for training in bomb making or weapons use, then they should also have their passports confiscated. The issue of a passport by the state is a privilege, not a right. A few trips on the "in prison," "out of prison" roundabout, with each sentence getting longer, might just upset their plans.
What's it all about?