Author Topic: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2  (Read 83877 times)

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Offline Muggins

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #240 on: June 25, 2012, 04:00:51 PM »
Hi again, I haven't gone off thread, other than to answer other contributors queries.

Oh and by the way, my 'butterfly orchard' (which implies that's it's all airy fairy) which shows you certainly don't know me!, WAS saved from development by the Seven Fields Conservation Group, by nalerting the right people in one department in the borough to what another department was up to. And then a lot of networking and being in the right place at the right time to find a good, necessary community use for it.  We've also so far managed to stop them building on the 7F's (nature reserve bit) and/or part's of it, by pointing out the good community use  to which it could be put (and it's importance) and various bits of the Park end which has been under threat of housing for some time.

I'm right behind any group/community saving any green or open space - and there are some who won't like me saying, but it's true, that most of the time WE were fighting the Labour group in Swindon, it's only recently it's all gone Tory. So its not about

The only difference in between then and now is the matter of consultation and methods of consultation, or rather lack of it. Planning law and developers influence always stood between us and success. 

Over the years I've learned what it is, that you/we, say/write that makes them - developers/councillor/officers, pigeon hole you and therefore lessen your case in their eyes. 

Purely co-incidence, why would I want to help any of them take land and make your lives a misery?

I'm sure the reason you want to fight this development is because you don't want the damned thing there, bought your house in good faith, or the problems it brings offsite - not JUST because you are opposed to the present administration or a nimby. 

As to North Swindon support, it's taken nearly 30 years to build up a network just for such support around here. I wouldn't be starting over at Oakhurst.

I've looked back at my last post and see I missed the word 'if' out. 

"It's rather unfair to blame officers too, the officers are there to guide them in making the right and legal decisions, (IF) there are legal reasons why they can or can't make planning decisions"

Now you have to unpick, whether or not the officers are not guiding them properly, by doing a quick learning curve on planning law.  Officers can be disciplined/sacked for mis-guiding councillors, but you can't sack a councillor.

Over at Coate, several times we have asked the people who own the land not to sell or asked them can we buy it, have you done that?

Good luck when you do! It's life long commitment.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Mr Grumble

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #241 on: June 25, 2012, 06:17:31 PM »
@ Muggins

Hi again, I haven't gone off thread, other than to answer other contributors queries.

Oh and by the way, my 'butterfly orchard' (which implies that's it's all airy fairy) which shows you certainly don't know me!, WAS saved from development by the Seven Fields Conservation Group, by nalerting the right people in one department in the borough to what another department was up to. And then a lot of networking and being in the right place at the right time to find a good, necessary community use for it.  We've also so far managed to stop them building on the 7F's (nature reserve bit) and/or part's of it, by pointing out the good community use  to which it could be put (and it's importance) and various bits of the Park end which has been under threat of housing for some time.

I'm right behind any group/community saving any green or open space - and there are some who won't like me saying, but it's true, that most of the time WE were fighting the Labour group in Swindon, it's only recently it's all gone Tory. So its not about

The only difference in between then and now is the matter of consultation and methods of consultation, or rather lack of it. Planning law and developers influence always stood between us and success. 

Over the years I've learned what it is, that you/we, say/write that makes them - developers/councillor/officers, pigeon hole you and therefore lessen your case in their eyes. 

Purely co-incidence, why would I want to help any of them take land and make your lives a misery?

I'm sure the reason you want to fight this development is because you don't want the damned thing there, bought your house in good faith, or the problems it brings offsite - not JUST because you are opposed to the present administration or a nimby. 

As to North Swindon support, it's taken nearly 30 years to build up a network just for such support around here. I wouldn't be starting over at Oakhurst.

Muggins, I think the butterfly orchard is a very special thing to you and to many in Swindon.  The point is that our home in Oakhurst is just as important as your butterfly orchard is to you.  The residents up here have approached the ward councillors and we have attended the meetings where they have promised us this and that.

But we have been so shocked that they went against their word and even recommended this development for approval.  Oakhurst Way will take 45% of the traffic.  The only way we could have stopped our local road being affected was for the councillors to turn it down and fight on.  How would you feel if you went to your elected reps in your hundreds and then they stabbed you in the back.

Our home is a beautiful place, with a lovely protected field that appears to be going to rack and ruin.  The councillors knew how badly our home would be affected but they just didn't care.  That's where Mr Grumble is coming from.  The poltical party doesn't matter, it just so happens all our councillors are Tory, it's the betrayal that hurts.

We only want them to take the responsibility for what they've done in word and deed.  I'm sure you will understand that.

Offline Muggins

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #242 on: June 25, 2012, 06:22:26 PM »
Not making any apologies for posting this here, someone was interested and you can see just how much North Swindon expanded in 20 years. You can see Tadpole Lane and  Blunsdon Abbey site in the top left hand corner. Greenmeadow is bottom  left  Groundwell industrial Estate is top right. This is not my copyright, but photographers name has been lost in the fullness of time. So thanks person/organisation!

And Mr Grumps, I understand..........really I do............and trying to help with info, the more you know the better you can defend.  My home was next to open countryside 20 years ago. in the phot, my home is middle centre.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Mr Grumble

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #243 on: June 25, 2012, 07:41:09 PM »
Thanks Muggins for posting the photograph.  It really shows how much of Swindon has gone under the builders concrete.  I was standing on Tadpole Lane the other day very early in the morning - there's hardly any traffic going towards the SCRailway because of the bridge repairs.  It was tranquil.  The birds were chirping and the sun was rising.  It suddenly dawned on me that Tadpole Lane was no longer the last protection for Swindon.  I was very sad.

Now you know why I feel the way I do about the airy fairy decision makers in Swindon.

Offline Jean

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #244 on: June 25, 2012, 08:00:09 PM »
Glad you put that map up Muggins. One of my favourite journeys in Swindon took me along Tadpole Lane - it was so tranquil and rural. I've not been back for years - it is too painful to see it as it is now. How I hated the people who moved into those new houses, as if it was all their fault - which, of course, it wasn't.

I've known Muggins for nearly 30 years and I know what a fighter you have been for the community and the environment. And what a fight you had with the builders in your area for a development that none of us wanted (and I live in Oxfordshire). You might have been accused of being a NIMBY then but the rest of us in the Thamesdown Environmental Forum and the Swindon Agenda 21 Forum certainly weren't. But once planning permission was granted, we didn't sit around pointing fingers, we got on with making the best of a worst case scenario and tried to get the developers to build something half decent. We failed there too, but thanks to you and the people of Penhill and Haydon Wick, there were ears to the ground to ensure that the best wildlife habitats had someone there to look after their welfare.

That's what we plan to do with regard to the Coate development. No we don't want the bloody carbuncle built and neither do people drawn from all around the world because of the Richard Jefferies' associations. But we will do our damnedest to protect the best bits and hope that we can influence the design at the detailed planning application stage and push to make sure that the buffer land around Coate Water is protected into perpetuity.

To the folk in Oakhurst - Muggins has been trying to help based on her many years of experience with the Northern Development Area.

I've given up posting on this thread as you just come across as NIMBYs to me. Stop wasting your energy pointing fingers. You have a lot of work to do in the future. So save your energy for fighting the detailed planning applications and the fights that you will have with the idiot builders. Take it from me, the Tadpole Farm planning application would have lost on appeal. It was even talked about at the Coate appeal. I knew that we would lose that one too but we gave it our best shot.

Of course you are angry. It's no good getting mad. You will all run out of steam and when the time comes to do something positive to reduce the impact of the TF development you will all have run out of steam. Believe me. I've seen it happen so many times.   

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Offline Richard Beale

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #245 on: June 25, 2012, 08:58:26 PM »
here here Jean and Tea Boy

You don't get know as 'That Bloody Woman' by the whole of a planning department for being planners and developers best friends O0 >:D btw, I was once introduced by a landscape architect to a planner as That Blody Woman's son, extra kudos for me there! :banana:. some might think that disrespectful, what I found was the opposite, she made their work harder, but but they respected her for it!

Respect is a cast iron currency in planning terms.

There is something common that runs through a lot of this, new councillors....

During and after very election councillors would be doing and saying unsustainable things. Cllr Elliot has done such a thing to get elected, however once elected he has found himself, as did every other north Swindon councillor, with the unenviable task of trying to extracate himself from the sh1t he has blundered into (completely of his own making)

Watching his priory vale facebook site comments is particularly cringe worth as he keeps digging that hole deeper and deeper, trying desperately to back track, he doesn't seem to know when to cut his losses. I might say he is stalling for time, but why?
Most of what he is saying is from what HE THINKS is going to happen or what HE WANTS to happen, unfortunately for him and his fellow ward councillors i think its only going to look much worse in the end. Officers are there to advise him, yet from the statements he is making it is obvious he is in the land of wishful thinking and hasn't stopped to check what the possibilities are and are not.

Offline sonicated

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #246 on: June 25, 2012, 09:17:55 PM »
When I moved from Oxford to Swindon I did it well knowing that Swindon would continue to expand so I'm certainly not a NIMBY. I just can't beleive the lack of infrastructure for Tadpole Farm. It seems everyone can see this but is allowing it to plough ahead regardless.

To get to work I could once take a right at the Whalebridge roundabout from Corporation Street to get onto Fleming Way. Now I have to take a left, do a u-turn at the mini roundabout, come back, left onto Princes Street, U-turn at the traffic lights, back down Princes street and finally a left onto Fleming Way. I have to go so slowly on my motorbike around the mini roundabout that cars keep edging forward which means sometimes I have to stop, this is dangerous and gets the drivers irate but would stop any collision.

This is progress? I challenge any Councillor or Officer to ride pillion with me on my journey to work!

And then you have the Queensfield curfew. Have they learnt nothing? They are effectively planning the same thing for Oakhurst Way that they are fixing with the curfew at Queensfield!

My experience of Swindon town planning beggers belief.

Offline carole bent

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #247 on: June 25, 2012, 09:44:47 PM »
Dear Sonicated, yep indeed... practically everyone bar the SBC highways team & their " expert firm" has highlighted that the access  for the School that SBC are building on the Croft - bang in the middle of a residential area isnt going to work... ignored

2 MPS  - past & present  - Labour & Conservative , 200 people, 3 firms of experts & an Olympics infrastructure expert all said access proposals were wrong.... listened to? nope.

Tadpole Farm? Whalebridge? Marlborough lane? .........

Offline Richard Beale

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #248 on: June 25, 2012, 10:12:57 PM »
looks like facebookers are stating to ask question's

from Priory Vale facebook (names redacted)

Quote
xxxxx xxxx

 I'm probably being dumb here, but....
 
Now that the new Crest development has been given the go ahead, subject to additional conditions that they have to negotiate with local councillors etc to address local residents' concerns, can we get an update as to how this process will continue? For example, if the councillors tell Crest what we think of their "traffic survey" (chuckle), how will Crest's response, and proposed resolution be fed back to us? What if we still aren't happy? Or are we (with all respect) going to have to trust our councillors to understand what our responses would be etc?
 
Cheers
 
xx

6 hours ago

Toby Elliott Hi xxxxx, the meetings haven't been confirmed yet. We as councillors are going around asking people's thoughts; ALL suggestions regarding issues that need to be addressed will be put to Crest. You can email us as well. I will update when I have more information.
2 hours ago via Mobile


This sounds very much like a behind closed doors jobby. So Cllr Elliot will be interpreting replies from crest? how can we be sure 'ALL suggestions regarding issues' as quoted will be addressed and replies given. Transparency any one?

Offline Muggins

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #249 on: June 26, 2012, 07:34:46 AM »
Sonicated "I just can't beleive the lack of infrastructure for Tadpole Farm."

Oh! Believe me, we can....................

Not that I don't agree with you, but Swindon was fit to burst when they started NorthDev, it really can't take much more.

"Now you know why I feel the way I do about the airy fairy decision makers in Swindon"

No 'NOW' about it, I always knew how you felt, how you would feel and what you are going to be feeling, up against in the next ten years, if you don't bottle out and move.  I didn't have that choice, whatever was going to happen I would have to stay and watch. 

I have had a thought, usually, if they expect to use more land later on, planning/developers/ build in sone extra road width, even if it's under grass at present.  Are your main-er roads like that?  Is the ability to widen roads there, or out the other side of the new development onto a main road there?  We often drive through there, so I'll look next time. 




« Last Edit: June 26, 2012, 08:08:13 AM by Muggins »
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #250 on: June 26, 2012, 08:28:35 AM »
Bursting I think more like a bycycle with a slow puncture the end is obvious just more slowly and the puncture has to be fixed in the end. Until recent years Swindon expanded in a controlled manner, but the developers free for all that came with the 1980s changed that, by the looks of it forever. I do agree with Muggins sentiment about bursting inso far that without infrastructure it is already past burtsing.

I live in West Swindon that sprung up out of farmland and it has grown into a community, but it has not had any major development for at least the last 20 odd years, but watch this space. Oakhurst people have told me that they are fed up with people lecturing them about being NIMBY. In my opinion this word was thought up by the worst Environment Secretary we have ever had in this country up until now. So it sums up my attitude towards the word and the self interested person who coined it in the first place.

Mannington Western and West Swindon want a quality of life, not to be the universal rat run for North Swindon escapees at least twice a day and the time gap between the two long bursts is getting shorter. I have never knowingly said development should not take place. My objection to development at Tadpole is to the traffic generated with insufficient road provision to deal with it and what I say about that is a matter of record. I readily admit it is not only about roads and transport, but also about schools provision, which affects some families in Swindon.

I am on record for saying I am not against development as long as it comes with the provision of sustainable infrastructure with roads, schools, village centres, shops, community facilities pubs etc, etc. No infrastructure no build simples! That is what Swindon people tell me they want and anyone with common sense can see they must have it as the 21st Century cranks on. Development is not about how few or how many big houses can be built on a patch. It is all about  that they should not even consider being built with a 19th Century infrastructure of poor community facilities and a lack of open space. If water and sewage companies cannot deal with more sewerage how long before cesspits make a return and water towers that fill up during the periods of low demand?

No doubt when a community believe that Councillors have said one thing and done another that to some may be deemed to be finger pointing. To some others it may be deemed as holding them to account for their actions and decisions. In regards to Coate how many people have witnessed a certain councillor taking flak from people over their decisions? I know some on TS; and in the press  have called them to account for their decisions also calling them some harsh names into the bargain. However as any councillor will tell you it is free speech and it ain't always pretty.

The North Swindon Cllrs are getting a dose of the same presently nothing more and nothing less, which is part of democracy and a fact of political life. Politics is a rough trade and all politicians expect that they will be held accountable for what they say and the decisions and choices they make.  I make no bones about it I attended the planning committee and I spoke about the impact of traffic in West Swindon. To alleviate some of this the traffic in Meadway  I asked that the the Purton/Iffley road link be restored into the core strategy and made one of the priorities for SBC to pursue. I also support a spine road to the A419. I did not speak on that, as I was hoping  another cllr would do so.

As for a Queensfield Curfew there is currently a de facto one operating in Tadpole Lane due to bridge works. The traffic has increased coming into west Swindon via Washpool and Lydiard Millicent I am told that Oakhurst Way is quieter as a result. I do not condemn people for seeking a restriction on Queensfield and frankly speaking if people called for  one  Meadway and on any road in Mannington Western in general until the Purton/Iffley link road is constructed.  I would in principle be in support of such a request.
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline the gorgon

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #251 on: June 26, 2012, 08:39:05 AM »

I have had a thought, usually, if they expect to use more land later on, planning/developers/ build in sone extra road width, even if it's under grass at present.  Are your main-er roads like that?  Is the ability to widen roads there, or out the other side of the new development onto a main road there?  We often drive through there, so I'll look next time.


Looking at google's aerial photos looks like Oakhurst Way could, at a push, be converted into a dual carriageway.

Offline Muggins

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #252 on: June 26, 2012, 08:44:41 AM »
Thats a road we've driven down many time.  It's actually quite pleasant.

Scary - ain't it!

And look at how much concrete/tarmac there already is, not just the road, but and around the houses too!
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #253 on: June 26, 2012, 09:11:03 AM »
Gorgon, thank you for posting the photograph of Oakhurst Way.  Isn't it shocking to think that St Andrews Tories would want to widen that road to the detriment of the people who live in Oakhurst.  I do not have the ability that you have and would hope you can help me out by posting a similar picture of Dorcan Way all the way through from one end to the other just to show how easy it would be to dual carriageway that road for the EDV.

If we don't fight Oakhurst Way now then Dorcan will be next.  I am sick of hearing the only people who want Oakhurst Way dualled and no parking on it are bus drivers.  The bus drivers like Torun Way now it has bollards on it and I'm worried that bus drivers will take their complaints to the Borough and they will allow parking restictions and bollards along Oakhurst Way.


Offline Jean

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #254 on: June 26, 2012, 10:33:42 AM »
There's nothing wrong with being a NIMBY - it gets people motivated to do something about a matter that might affect their quality of life. My only hope is that folk see the bigger picture. I remember reading a travel-to-work report for Wiltshire. Marlborough, apparently, had the lowest number of people travelling to work by car - Swindon was one of the worst. Swindon is an extremely car-based orientated town. Is it too late to turn this around? Even if a new community is designed to be self-contained with the basic necessities of life on their doorstep, would people use them? Allowing parents a choice as to where their children go to school has been a disaster for the community. Out-of-town employment areas, supermarkets and public facilities are equally so. People no longer choose to live near to where they work. And with the instability of the job market, even if they do, there is no guarantee that this will be the case a few years down the line.

It is getting impossible to escape the noise and inconvenience of too much traffic on our roads. How are we going to resolve the matter? Even if the Tadpole Farm development could be designed so that Oakhurst wasn't used as a rat run, who else would ultimately suffer from the inconvenience unless we can get people out of their cars. I'm told that it will never happen - that we have gone too far. If a new road is built or widened, someone suffers and it is often communities off the beaten track where motorists try to find their way around traffic pinch-points. Swindon is doomed unless we can persuade government, as one body, that Swindon should not grow any bigger.     
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Offline the gorgon

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #255 on: June 26, 2012, 11:39:50 AM »
Gorgon, thank you for posting the photograph of Oakhurst Way.  Isn't it shocking to think that St Andrews Tories would want to widen that road to the detriment of the people who live in Oakhurst.  I do not have the ability that you have and would hope you can help me out by posting a similar picture of Dorcan Way all the way through from one end to the other just to show how easy it would be to dual carriageway that road for the EDV.

If we don't fight Oakhurst Way now then Dorcan will be next.  I am sick of hearing the only people who want Oakhurst Way dualled and no parking on it are bus drivers.  The bus drivers like Torun Way now it has bollards on it and I'm worried that bus drivers will take their complaints to the Borough and they will allow parking restictions and bollards along Oakhurst Way.

If what you say about bus drivers is true then the road might well be widened just to provide dedicated bus lanes (or rapid transit scheme as SBC will call it).

They could reinstate Lady Lane as a thoroughfare, but my feeling is that it is another potential 'rapid transit' route, by doing that it remains as a cycle route.  Worth checking what was done when car/motorbike access was restricted, if buses can still theoretically use it then SBC won't require planning permission to use it as a bus route.

As for Dorcan Way, well I'm surprised it hasn't been made a dual carriageway already, because when you look at the footbridge/subway over/under it it they're big enough for a dual carriageway.

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #256 on: June 26, 2012, 01:25:37 PM »
Nothing posted on the Oakhurst Residents Blog today-so far http://oakhurstresidents.blogspot.co.uk/ perhaps they are having a rest?  :fish:

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #257 on: June 26, 2012, 01:27:18 PM »
@Jean

The people in Oakhurst have lived with development for years. We do not object to building, we are surrounded by it.  Let me spell this out for you so that you understand. 

Some of the brief points are:

We do not want building where there is already insufficient school places.
We do not want the traffic increased or doubled on our roads.
We want politicians who will do what they say instead of those who say something and do the opposite.

As you can see politicians have said all sorts of things about Tadpole Farm and flip flopped.  Allowing parents a choice of where they send their children has been a disaster for this community because the parents are very clear they want their children schooled in Oakrhust.

Your talk about supermarkets does not wash in North Swindon because the Orbital centre was built to cut down on internal traffic journeys.  Yes, you're right that there is too much traffic already.  That's why we don't want it increased on our roads.

We do not accept that even if Tadpole Farm could be designed so as not to use Oakhurst Way as a rat-run then someone else would suffer.  Our point is that new road provision would reduce this impact wherever it goes.  I'm so pleased you agree if a road is widened that someone suffers.  Our community is not off the beaten track.  Our community was designed just a few years ago with its roads in place.

You cannot believe sincerely that people in Oakhurst have not been shoddily treated by the Council and its representatives.

MrGrumpy

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #258 on: June 26, 2012, 01:36:37 PM »
@Gorgon - here is Dorcan Way, soon to be a multi-lane Expressway? :-)
 

Offline the gorgon

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #259 on: June 26, 2012, 01:53:15 PM »
@Mr Grumpy

Have a look at this bridge, heck of a coincidence that it's just the right width for a dual carriageway.

Streetview doesn't like getting embedded so here's a link. http://goo.gl/maps/iT3c