Author Topic: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2  (Read 86197 times)

0 Members and 3 Guests are viewing this topic.

Offline Steve Wakefield

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2566
  • Gender: Male
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #200 on: June 24, 2012, 09:11:57 AM »
The primary need is for the Purton Iffley road link to move traffic to the town centre and M4 distributing traffic by bus is welcome. A bus link could never compensate for the need of a Great Western Link road.

I recall at the meeting people pointing out to officers that they may introduce a bus route, but the last thing it would be is rapid.
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8535
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #201 on: June 24, 2012, 09:21:27 AM »
Could you lot give over with the initials? 

I have found an ariel veiw pre-development which shows celarly the route of the old Lady Lane, well it would, if it wasn't a laminated photocopy.  If you'd like to see it, I'll find the original, but I'm not going to bother if you don't want to.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

MrGrumpy

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #202 on: June 24, 2012, 09:35:28 AM »
In the words of Jimmy Cricket, there's more!  This appeared later last night as well...

http://oakhurstresidents.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/quotes-from-officers-at-planning_23.html

Mr Grumble

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #203 on: June 24, 2012, 09:38:38 AM »
Sorry about the initials - Bus Rapid Transit (BRT) or Rapid Bus Transit (RBT).  It is a technical name for a fully bus laned route from point A to point B plus a whole raft of other things that have to be added to the infrastructure to achieve rapid transit.  Bristol got funding from the Department for Transport (DfT) but Swindon didn't.  Perhaps we need to look at why Swindon misses out on so much funding whilst others are more successful?  Is it the officers or the councillors? 

You're right Mr Wakefield about the Purton/Iffley Road link.  Was that another lot of funding that escaped SBC? ???

Mr Grumble

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #204 on: June 24, 2012, 09:39:58 AM »
Muggins, can we see the aerial photograph please?

George Elliot

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #205 on: June 24, 2012, 10:01:33 AM »
In the words of Jimmy Cricket, there's more!  This appeared later last night as well...

http://oakhurstresidents.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/quotes-from-officers-at-planning_23.html


Mr Grumpy

I enjoy following the ORA website and I like to put up the links. Are you attempting to deny me this joy?  :wink:

Quote
Bus Rapid Transit system isn’t just a bus, there is a whole raft of priority measures that would need to come forward with it to improve the infrastructure to allow that time to be achieved.  So just to be clear it is a whole package of works that needs to be undertaken and the developers have provided a substantial contribution to towards our own scheme


Does that mean Swindon Council Tax payers will have to pick up the tab for the buses? Will that then be cut by Cllr Keith Williams and his group because we're all in this together? This happened to Penhill and other areas when the Orbital was built the money ran out Tories did not want to fund it and it stopped. The Purton Iffley Road Link is a must and why Swindon has dropped the ball on this repeatedly is beyond comprehension.

Offline jennyb

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1813
  • Gender: Female
  • Kareen
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #206 on: June 24, 2012, 11:14:13 AM »
In the words of Jimmy Cricket, there's more!  This appeared later last night as well...

http://oakhurstresidents.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/quotes-from-officers-at-planning_23.html



It would be churlish to suggest that the reason that Officers recommended that this be approved to prevent an expensive and successful appeal is merely self preservation.

The officers quoted on this blog are the same officers who presented the 'highways' solutions that the developer/applicant ( Children's services ) wanted on the Croft. Problems areas are ignored... sound familiar?

They set low standards of expectations and consistently fail to meet them. But ..hey ho... they are safe... because they know that the planning committee do as they are told. Either in the meeting or before... 

Exposure to any external review would highlight the fantasy world inhabited by these walter mitty characters.
It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Mr Grumble

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #207 on: June 24, 2012, 11:21:26 AM »
The SBC officer must be having a laugh?  £450,000 is a substantial contribution towards the RBT?  Why are the Council contemplating applying a S.278 agreement to the developers to make them put some of the RBT in place?  Sorry, jargon.  S.278 agreements are highways orders that kind of 'force' the developers to replace roads/pavements that they've damaged during construction or put in place new highways infrastructure.


@Tadpole Farm planning report pg. 59 pt. 149:

Quote
The Council would take a contribution towards the implementation of the BRT in north Swindon and thereby Crest will have no influence over whether it is option 1 or 2 [Oakhurst Way or via Redhouse Village Centre] that is implemented thereby allowing the Council to give due consideration to the most appropriate and effective route by determining the design specification and consulting with the public, and to take full responsibility for implementing this under Highway powers.

There are benefits and potential disadvantages to operating either of the routes, which have been highlighted by residents who could be affected by either route and will need further consideration outside the scope of this application.

It is considered that the implementation of the bus corridor and the other highway works outside the application boundary will be provided directly by Crest under a Section 278 Agreement and can be sought by Grampian condition (in relation to offsite works on land under the full control of the Council or Developer).  This is arguably more cost effective for the developer and thus enables a greater level of constribtuions for the who Section 106 package which will be discussed below.
[/b]

Smiler

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #208 on: June 24, 2012, 11:33:48 AM »
@Cllr Tomlinson (ORA blog)

Quote
"But this is relevant, and it is relevant to these people who live in that area that it will affect the most.  There has been no consultation with ward councillors who represent these people, and that’s my point.  This Council very often falls down on consultation because Officers take decisions and we are back on that old old story – who runs this Council? Members or Officers?"
"

So what is Cllr Tomlinson saying?  The bus route chosen will affect the residents in Redhouse?  But I thought that Cllr Tomlinson had already got Lady Lane closed and Addinsell Road closed to through traffic?  So being a mature and sensible councillor she wants to make sure that not even the bus route goes through Redhouse?  Surely she should have been concentrating on the non-delivery of the BRT? Ah, but if you've got all your roads closed then the infrastructure deficits are not that important, are they?

Has she heard of the word 'sharing'?  Or is sharing going to enter the political dictionary as shafting?


George Elliot

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #209 on: June 24, 2012, 11:45:14 AM »

It would be churlish to suggest that the reason that Officers recommended that this be approved to prevent an expensive and successful appeal is merely self preservation.

The officers quoted on this blog are the same officers who presented the 'highways' solutions that the developer/applicant ( Children's services ) wanted on the Croft. Problems areas are ignored... sound familiar?

They set low standards of expectations and consistently fail to meet them. But ..hey ho... they are safe... because they know that the planning committee do as they are told. Either in the meeting or before... 

Exposure to any external review would highlight the fantasy world inhabited by these walter mitty characters.

And the questions are:

Quote
Questions that ORA members might wish to ask:

Why does Cllr Tomlinson only focus on the consultation about the BRT? 
Why doesn't she question why the BRT is not being delivered as set out in the core strategy? 
Is this grounds for refusing the application? 
Why does the Transport Officer not mention the requirements of the core strategy regarding the BRT? 
Why does the Transport Officer not mention that the £5m bid for DfT funding has been unsuccessful? 
Why do none of the planning committee councillors mention the non-delivery of the BRT as part of this application? 
Will Oakhurst Way eventually be bus-laned to deliver the BRT? 
Why is the application approved without the BRT when the core strategy (used as one of the main reasons this application should go ahead) says its delivery is critical?

It appear to me that if Oakhurst residents are trusting councillors to do this important job. It is a risky one at best and  cavalier in the least.


Offline Jodie Maggio

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 78
  • Hello !
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #210 on: June 24, 2012, 12:04:40 PM »
In the words of Jimmy Cricket, there's more!  This appeared later last night as well...

http://oakhurstresidents.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/quotes-from-officers-at-planning_23.html


Mr Lloyd and Ms Cornelius are the self same officers who made a complete hash of the highways solution (I use that word with a huge degree of poetic licence) at the Nov 2011 Planning Committee.

Now 7 months later they unveil the much heralded Croft School mitigations (I use that word with a huge degree of poetic licence) in a public demonstration proving that they still do not have a clue.

Any faith in their advice (I use that word with a huge degree of poetic licence) would be ill-judged in my opinion

George Elliot

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #211 on: June 24, 2012, 12:57:11 PM »
Jodie

From what you say and I admit taking much poetic licence. It makes one wonder if those who hold positions of authority can be trusted to be let off the reins and out of sight of a responsible adult.  :-\


Smiler

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #212 on: June 24, 2012, 01:06:50 PM »
@ George Elliot

Quote
It appears to me that if Oakhurst residents are trusting councillors to do this important job. It is a risky one at best and  cavalier in the least.

Can the words trust and NDA ward councillors exist in the same sentence for any group of residents in the North? 

@old towner

Quote
Trust

The most prized asset any council can possess but continually squandered by the current SBC administration at every opportunity. With every day of passing this asset is being stripped away
.



George Elliot

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #213 on: June 24, 2012, 01:56:09 PM »
Can the words trust and NDA ward councillors exist in the same sentence for any group of residents in the North? 

Surely that would depend on the definition of trust being used and as we know in Swindon how it is interpreted.  :2funny:

Offline Mart

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5249
  • Where's my cow?
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #214 on: June 24, 2012, 04:37:56 PM »
trust: to tightly bind something until it goes all purple and throbby.

Something to bear in mind the next time a councillor or officer clerk says 'Trust me'.

It's your civic duty to oblige.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

George Elliot

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #215 on: June 24, 2012, 05:15:09 PM »
Have you ever found yourself thinking that everywhere is beging to look the same and the so called new look is becoming quite common. Why is that? It could be nothing to do with developers using the same master planner surely? http://www.newmasterplanning.com/news.php

Here is a thumbnail of projects http://www.newmasterplanning.com/projects.php

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8535
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #216 on: June 24, 2012, 06:14:55 PM »
Mmm, off thread but yes, watching the Olympic Flame at BBC on Salford Quays at 6.30 this morning.

Compared with our town centre, same paving, same wavy design, same blue lights sunk in ground, wonder if they have the same seats.  Often thought that architecture is a bit of a con - only ever one plan altered ust to fit in wherever/whoever buys it.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline jennyb

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1813
  • Gender: Female
  • Kareen
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #217 on: June 24, 2012, 09:20:37 PM »
Been going back through all of my notes  and on 7th Feb 2012 Mr Jones, CEO gave the following answer to a question from me...

Question: Planning Process
Q25 - Under what circumstances are Officers permitted to hold pre-meetings or briefings relating to a planning application with Planning Committee Members in advance of a Planning meeting which will assess that same application being put forward by those same Officers?

ANSWER: Officers may brief the Chair and any member of the planning committee on a proposal prior to the application coming to the planning committee. Such briefing enables officers to explain the proposal and provide answers to queries that a Member may have. Members are precluded from making a decision at that stage.


I wonder whether a question should be posed at the outset of each planning committee regarding any such meetings , or whether the chair should state that any such meetings took place?

I wonder if any such meetings are minuted and if these minutes are somewhere deep within the morass that is Swindon.gov.uk?

I wonder how the public, whom planning decisions affect, are to know exactly what was discussed at any such meeting and also whether Ward Cllrs who are not members of the planning committee can or have participated?

Because it would not be open and transparent if all of this was being done behind closed doors and out of public sight.... would it?

It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

George Elliot

  • Guest
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #218 on: June 25, 2012, 08:38:02 AM »
http://oakhurstresidents.blogspot.co.uk/2012/06/tadpole-farm-north-locality-meeting-7th.html

Quote
VT – Here she goes....this is the biggest development in the northern sector that we have known.  Last year I was on the planning committee and because I was on the planning committee I had to keep my mouth well and truly zipped and I couldn’t say which way I would vote or would I be in favour of it or against it.  For some reason I have now been taken off the planning committee this year, surprise surprise, but I will be there as a ward councillor for that ward that the application has come in for and I will speak.  And I understand that ward councillors can speak forever and a day and nobody can stop them.  Now, members of the public coming will only be given perhaps two minutes or three minutes in which to speak but let any of them try shutting me up on this one and I will fall out with them.   And as I had to keep my thoughts to myself for the last 12 to 18 months because I was on the Planning Committee, I am going to say tonight  I am very much against that application to build houses on land which is inappropriate for the area. 


There are several reasons why it is inappropriate and I will bring those up at the meeting, but I don’t know if my two colleagues and the ones from Priory Vale, I am not pointing at you Toby because I know the position you’re in, I’m not sure whether they’re going to speak tonight but I do know that we are all as one. And so we would say to you please come on that night – we, your councillors, need your support to back us up on the night.


Taken off planning committee surprise, surprise?

Offline Muggins

  • Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8535
Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm. Part 2
« Reply #219 on: June 25, 2012, 09:41:03 AM »
Interesting link George, A couple of things popped up there. Firstly the name Eddie Bedwell, he was Chair of the Northern Development Action Group, prior to the whole thing  starting development, he called the meetings just like those that you are having about Tadpole Farm. Although the NDAC capitulated quite early on - in the face of a 10,000 development! It remained for a while to help get the best out of the developers that it could. He would have known that Justin had no vote.

Rex mis-remembers about Northern Dev, it was always going to be 10,000 homes and leapt from that to much more at Priory Vale end and the increase well entrenched by the time it got to Redhouse. It wasn't a borough decision to increase, it was a government decision, how much power the Borough had to knuckle under that I can't remember, but housing allocations went up. (Like I've said before, I can take you to the pllace where it first started and you can see the difference immediately*) Then as now, there was little appetite to build on greenfield sites, that were not aready up for development. 

I don't find it surprising that where a large development is expected, that the councillors of that areas are not selected or want to go on the planning committee.  They may not have much say at public meetings, but, by golly, they could say a lot in the members room etc. they may not be able to discuss with you which way they will vote, but they can discuss it with each other. 

It's rather unfair to blame officers too, the officers are there to guide them in making the right and legal decisions, there are legal reasons why they can or can't make planning decisions.

*in fact take yourself.......Cagney Drive - Old ratio - Henman Close, old ratio Hudson Close, new ratio.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)