Author Topic: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School  (Read 18730 times)

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Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #80 on: March 11, 2013, 09:23:30 PM »
I'm not wholely convinced by the argument that, as this site has planning permission for a pub, it won't be used for a school or community centre instead. There's not much demand for new pubs at the moment from the pub chains.


I wish I had a crystal ball, but with JT has been 'championing' the pub for a long time and his Ma, (Vera) similarly, erm, 'championing' her community centre plan I doubt either of them will allow their plans to veer off course, especially as Vera worked so hard to 'win' £700,000 for her project.

Incidentally, we've also been discussing the subject of Councillors meeting with developers and whether it is, or is not appropriate. See: Local Councillors As Planning Consultants?

That thread reminded me of something which dropped into the leakline a while back:  Hat-Tip to Lamplighter Tilley:

Quote from: Cllr Vera Tomlinson
“I recently saw a plan of Redhouse I believe I was not meant to see - it showed the Medical Centre removed and the land for the Community Centre reduced. I complained, and these have now reappeared on the latest version of the plan.

I had a meeting with Crest Nicholson recently about Redhouse Village Centre. There were two Crest Nicholson MDs and a lot of other Crest Nicholson people and myself. I asked them to build the Community Centre at their own cost and suggested they donate the land as well - they agreed to this. They have also agreed to put up three signs on the three plots to show that the plots of land are reserved for a Community Centre, a Medical Centre and a Restaurant/Pub. This is really good news for Redhouse.”


Interesting, not least because Cllr Tomlinson (V) had a meeting with no less than two managing Directors of Crest Nicolson, a lot of other Crest people and, (unless her grammar is appalling or she wanted sole credit), just her.  She seemed quite proud about it apparently.

I reckon, having worked so hard to 'secure' these things for the 'excellent' Redhouse residents, neither Cllr or MP Tomlinson will want the area blighted by another Class Solutions non-portable portacabin :)

Offline Muggins

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #81 on: March 12, 2013, 08:31:04 AM »
Not impossible Geoff, Me and the chair of the 7F's group had a meeting with an MD over at Abbey Meads, can't remember the name of the developer, but it was the only small family firm that built any houses there. I think he genuinely meant what-ever it was he agreed to at the time - nothing major like community centres but preservation of hedgerows and working cleanly and with care I think, but half way through the site he threw in the trowel, said he bloody hated that site in Swindon and cleared off. His first Sorte out of the South East if I remember rightly. I could show you where his (very nice houses) ended and the other developers (Westbury Homes) started. He'd bought the land right next to Penhill valley  ::) but I don't think it was that that drove him away, because the more he built the further away he got. His very nice houses sold like hot cakes. From the lack of For Sale signs I'd say the people who bought them are pretty happy there. Well who wouldn't be right next to Penhill Copse?

We met with more than one site manager, we used to call in at the sales houses as if we were customers - amazing what you do and don't find out by doing that, holding in mind that the salesperosn only tell you what they've been told and they are not kept very well informed about anything expcept their aprticular site.

One thing we quickly learned was not to brag about what we had achieved via those meetings, becasue the develoeprs invariably didn't keep any promises.

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline jayjay

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #82 on: March 12, 2013, 10:00:26 AM »
I'm not wholely convinced by the argument that, as this site has planning permission for a pub, it won't be used for a school or community centre instead. There's not much demand for new pubs at the moment from the pub chains.


I wish I had a crystal ball, but with JT has been 'championing' the pub for a long time and his Ma, (Vera) similarly, erm, 'championing' her community centre plan I doubt either of them will allow their plans to veer off course, especially as Vera worked so hard to 'win' £700,000 for her project.

Incidentally, we've also been discussing the subject of Councillors meeting with developers and whether it is, or is not appropriate. See: Local Councillors As Planning Consultants?

That thread reminded me of something which dropped into the leakline a while back:  Hat-Tip to Lamplighter Tilley:

Quote from: Cllr Vera Tomlinson
“I recently saw a plan of Redhouse I believe I was not meant to see - it showed the Medical Centre removed and the land for the Community Centre reduced. I complained, and these have now reappeared on the latest version of the plan.

I had a meeting with Crest Nicholson recently about Redhouse Village Centre. There were two Crest Nicholson MDs and a lot of other Crest Nicholson people and myself. I asked them to build the Community Centre at their own cost and suggested they donate the land as well - they agreed to this. They have also agreed to put up three signs on the three plots to show that the plots of land are reserved for a Community Centre, a Medical Centre and a Restaurant/Pub. This is really good news for Redhouse.”


Interesting, not least because Cllr Tomlinson (V) had a meeting with no less than two managing Directors of Crest Nicolson, a lot of other Crest people and, (unless her grammar is appalling or she wanted sole credit), just her.  She seemed quite proud about it apparently.

I reckon, having worked so hard to 'secure' these things for the 'excellent' Redhouse residents, neither Cllr or MP Tomlinson will want the area blighted by another Class Solutions non-portable portacabin :)


http://www.swindon.gov.uk/northswindonprimary

Would this be the same Redhouse for which the planning system shows PA S/12/0711: application for 33 houses and a charge of £240,000 to SBC for the land for a community centre?

http://195.89.201.121/PublicAccess77/tdc/DcApplication/application_detailview.aspx?caseno=M45QHRPT97000


If Cllr Tomlinson (V), met with Crest Nicolson and quote from above " I asked them to build the Community Centre at their own cost and suggested they donate the land as well - they agreed to this. "

Why have the council just paid £240K for the land?

Offline jayjay

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #83 on: March 12, 2013, 10:11:55 AM »
Quote from: Cllr Vera Tomlinson
“I recently saw a plan of Redhouse I believe I was not meant to see - it showed the Medical Centre removed and the land for the Community Centre reduced. I complained, and these have now reappeared on the latest version of the plan.

I had a meeting with Crest Nicholson recently about Redhouse Village Centre. There were two Crest Nicholson MDs and a lot of other Crest Nicholson people and myself. I asked them to build the Community Centre at their own cost and suggested they donate the land as well - they agreed to this. They have also agreed to put up three signs on the three plots to show that the plots of land are reserved for a Community Centre, a Medical Centre and a Restaurant/Pub. This is really good news for Redhouse.”


Interesting, not least because Cllr Tomlinson (V) had a meeting with no less than two managing Directors of Crest Nicolson, a lot of other Crest people and, (unless her grammar is appalling or she wanted sole credit), just her.  She seemed quite proud about it apparently.

I reckon, having worked so hard to 'secure' these things for the 'excellent' Redhouse residents, neither Cllr or MP Tomlinson will want the area blighted by another Class Solutions non-portable portacabin :)


Would this be the same Redhouse for which the planning system shows PA S/12/0711: application for 33 houses and a charge of £240,000 to SBC for the land for a community centre?

http://195.89.201.121/PublicAccess77/tdc/DcApplication/application_detailview.aspx?caseno=M45QHRPT97000


If Cllr Vera Tomlinson got Crest Nicholson to donate the land for the community centre - why has SBC just been charged £240K?


Offline jayjay

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #84 on: March 12, 2013, 10:13:34 AM »
Sorry I posted the above twice by mistake.

Offline jennyb

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Schrodinger's cat is at it again... Cabinet report is out
« Reply #85 on: March 13, 2013, 08:17:14 AM »
https://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=47929

Schrodinger's cat is at it again...

When is a site not a site for North Swindon?

I thought the Croft Inquiry report had reached the silly stage.. but this is a close runner for the gold cup. 

Read 3.19 in this report and have a laugh.

And... people are being paid good money to write this utter tosh!
It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline Mickraker

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #86 on: March 13, 2013, 08:34:51 AM »
I read it and it says the best assessment is not really and it now needs another report to report on the report   :-\
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Offline Outoftowner

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #87 on: March 13, 2013, 09:21:55 AM »
In the report it says:

Quote
Open space is at a premium in the north and the restrictive size of the existing school sites and density of the development have made the search for a site very difficult.

If I was a "Planner" I'd plan essential facilities like schools into the original plan BEFORE the "density of the development" prevented it. But there again I'm probably not as clever as a "Planner".

(There are a whole lot of other things that I would plan in too but I don't want to bore anyone.)

P.S. I think that I'd call my plan something like, "Plan"; as opposed to a "Make it Up As I Go Along."
What's it all about?

Offline Muggins

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #88 on: March 13, 2013, 11:15:58 AM »
Outer, Outer at Northern Development ALL of that WAS planned in. Honestly we followed it very carefully at the start anyway. 

Something went wrong with the last bit at the Taw Hill end, can't think what that was!  somebody else might like to pinpoint the year it changed.  Well taw Hill was ok too, although that was at the extreme end, the development there, more or less works it's way back into the middle, so it  that bit thatt needs dating. 

Again, the housing density increase must have made a difference but the numbers went into smaller houses and higher and not taken inbto consideration.  The Master plan right back from the start contained all the necessaries for a good quality of life, it was only the density that went up, not the land covered.  i.e. so if you took an acre, that was all you took, and you either planted between 8 and 14 houses on or up to 25/35 houses on it. So the land was still there desingated for open open space, village centres, schools, etc. etc.

It could be that people's expectation was of having EVERY facility right to hand, and that was never going to happen.

I doubt that the developer ever promised to pay for a £240,000 community centre, they may well have promised to give the land, in fact that was probably requirement of planning permission.
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Offline Outoftowner

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #89 on: March 13, 2013, 12:52:44 PM »
I understand a density increase often happens. It is before the higher density building is agreed that the school numbers / facilities need to be re-addressed.

Planners will always try to get 2.273 litres into a 1.1365 litre pot.
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Offline komadori

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #90 on: March 13, 2013, 01:01:34 PM »
There were also changes in government rules for minimum housing density that were made while that part of north Swindon was being developed.

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Offline Muggins

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #91 on: March 13, 2013, 01:49:50 PM »
The government edict on housing density DID happen and happened all at once, not in this case 'every now and then'. 

In other postings I have said that and can show you the first field to go that way in ND.

when ther eis a government edict, it usually take ssome time to seep down, this didn't. It DID almost happen overnight.  I have also said that I guessed it was due to the densities there was more need for schools etc, and acknowledged that someone wasn't keeping their eye on that particular ball.

Another doo-da, due to constant changes at SBC and constant changes in staff.

When people were saying there are too many people working at SBC, perhaps they didn't know what was going on in the inside. You can't keep building houses and talking about school places, when there ain't the blessed staff left that know what's what.  Expect more to come on that one. And when you don't listen to them that do! 

If you were wise and knew you had another town the size of Salisbury tacked on the side of your town, you wouldn't, unless you were a right numpty, vote to do it with less staff than you had been before - you would? Ah, you could get consultants in to do it, but then what would they know! and who holds the historic knowledge?
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #92 on: March 13, 2013, 07:57:09 PM »
In the report it says:

Quote
Open space is at a premium in the north and the restrictive size of the existing school sites and density of the development have made the search for a site very difficult.

If I was a "Planner" I'd plan essential facilities like schools into the original plan BEFORE the "density of the development" prevented it. But there again I'm probably not as clever as a "Planner".

(There are a whole lot of other things that I would plan in too but I don't want to bore anyone.)

P.S. I think that I'd call my plan something like, "Plan"; as opposed to a "Make it Up As I Go Along."

If space is at such a premium, why are the council promoting a single storey Class Solution?

Offline jennyb

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #93 on: March 13, 2013, 10:54:38 PM »
I read it and it says the best assessment is not really and it now needs another report to report on the report   :-\

A bit like an EU referendum... keep voting until you come up with the desired answer....

It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline Muggins

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #94 on: March 14, 2013, 08:03:07 AM »
In the report it says:

Quote
Open space is at a premium in the north and the restrictive size of the existing school sites and density of the development have made the search for a site very difficult.

If I was a "Planner" I'd plan essential facilities like schools into the original plan BEFORE the "density of the development" prevented it. But there again I'm probably not as clever as a "Planner".

(There are a whole lot of other things that I would plan in too but I don't want to bore anyone.)

P.S. I think that I'd call my plan something like, "Plan"; as opposed to a "Make it Up As I Go Along."

If space is at such a premium, why are the council promoting a single storey Class Solution?

I'd beleive that the policy is to have single storey schools for primary schools, to doing with access issues and safety. I'm sure we'd all agree that disablity should not stop children going to the same school as their peers.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline jayjay

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Re: Schrodinger's cat is at it again... Cabinet report is out
« Reply #95 on: March 14, 2013, 11:52:21 AM »
https://ww5.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgConvert2PDF.aspx?ID=47929

Schrodinger's cat is at it again...

When is a site not a site for North Swindon?

I thought the Croft Inquiry report had reached the silly stage.. but this is a close runner for the gold cup. 

Read 3.19 in this report and have a laugh.

And... people are being paid good money to write this utter tosh!

Quote
3.19 In conclusion, the site assessment scoring brings the Tadpole Farm site out as
the best option. However, there is not much to separate the five sites as there is
no standout site and due to the complex nature of the options a recommended
option will follow in a supplementary report to this committee subject to further
consideration and negotiation.

There are five sites to choose from

Option 1 Mouldon Park - between the railway line and the river
Option 2 Mouldon Park - near the entrance
Option 3 Redhouse
Option 4 Clary Road
Option 5 Tadpole Farm

I have read various bits in the paper, and I though "Clary Road" was out because it was too far from where the children live, I thought they just passed planning permission for 33 houses/community centre at Redhouse, and Mouldon Park (Option1) had too many difficulties, so how can there be "not much to separate the five sites"?

Offline jennyb

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #96 on: March 14, 2013, 05:58:44 PM »

Having experienced the shenigans which took place to get Class Solutions on the Croft little of the behaviour of esteemed public servants surprises.

But of course, the Croft was all stitched up 'in camera'. But it will likely all out in the near future.

In the meantime, Mouldon Hill is playing out in the full glare of the spotlight.

Now why is Mouldon Hill so important?

Could it be that it might make Class Solutions look dainty?

Could it be that SCS will be the assemblers?

Could it be that in order to try to sell this to others one has to use it oneself?

Reading the output of our esteemed public servants as they tie themselves in knots to deliver Mouldon Hill for Class Solutions is akin to reading Hans Christian Andersen...

Whatever will happen next?

Who will tell the Emperor or could it be Empress? that they have no clothes ... now where's that child when you need him?

Oh wait, there he is in the distance ... off on a long journey to a school far far away..

It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline jayjay

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #97 on: March 16, 2013, 08:02:36 PM »
I was listening the the national radio about the HS2 judgement.  The judge said the consultation process regarding compensation had been handled incorrectly.  During the item the reported refered to some person who had written a "best practice" document for consultation.  Unfortunately I didn't quite hear the name of the author so I've had a search of the web and came up with this link:-

http://www.bristol.gov.uk/page/council-and-democracy/code-good-practice-public-consultation#jump-link-4

And it identifies 7 key points:

Quote
Our seven consultation principles
 1.Time consultations well and allow sufficient time to respond.
 2.Clearly present relevant information and encourage informed opinion.
 3.Be well targeted and reach out to seldom heard groups.
 4.Offer genuine options and ask objective questions.
 5.Be well planned, managed and co-ordinated.
 6.Be listed on Consultation Finder and be well communicated.
 7.Provide fair, accessible feedback.

Quote
1.Time consultations well and allow sufficient time to respond.
 a.Consultations should be timed to allow the results to influence policy / proposal development.
 b.Wide scale public consultations, such as citywide or large parts of it, should run for a minimum period of six weeks.
 c.The timing of consultations should consider the availability of target groups. Consultations that are primarily focussed on the voluntary and community sector (VCS) should run for a minimum period of 12 weeks, in line with the Bristol Compact, to allow VCS organisations a fair opportunity to canvass the views of their members, service users and volunteers.
Quote
2.Clearly present relevant information and encourage informed opinion.
 a.The consultation should clearly state: the proposal, why we are consulting, and how we will use the findings.
 b.The consultation should provide enough information to enable consultees to give an informed opinion and not simply an instant reaction.
his information should be written in plain English.
Quote
3.Be well targeted and reach out to seldom heard groups.
 a.The views of those people / areas most affected by the proposal should be sought.
 b.Attempts should be made to listen to the views of non-users, especially when service changes are being consulted on.
 c.Attempts should be made to include the views of groups frequently excluded or overlooked.
 d.Consultations should consider the needs of people with impaired sight or hearing or people whose first language is not English.
Quote
4.Offer genuine options and ask objective questions.
 a.Where options are offered, they should be realistic and deliverable.
 b.Surveys and questions should be written in an objective way allowing people to express their views.
Quote
5.Be well planned, managed and coordinated.
 a.The council’s consultation toolkit contains step-by-step instructions to enable managers to effectvely manage consultations and avoid unnecessary duplication.
Quote
6.Be listed on consultation finder and be well communicated.
 a.We will publicise consultations and make attempts to let people know they are happening.
 b.Consultation finder lists all our  consultations in one place on the web.
 c.Major consultations e.g. citywide or affecting a large number of people - will be publicised by press release and we will use our publications such as Our City residents magazine - to publicise them.
Quote
7.Provide fair, accessible feedback.
 a.We will publish the findings of consultations and later how they have been used.
 b.The findings  will be reported in a balanced way.


This is Bristol's document, does Swindon has a similar one?

Offline Muggins

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #98 on: March 17, 2013, 08:40:21 AM »
The guide to Good practice on Consultation was posted here on TS a couple of years ago, 'cause I posted it.

Or at least the one developed by the Wiltshire Development Forum - Health Commission for Wiltshire and Bath - Wiltshire Social Services

Swindon did have a sort of policy but like like the rest of the policy documents it's no sooner printed and passed than it's holding up a wobbly legged table somewhere.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Muggins

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Re: Groundbreaking or Farce / Public To Decide Ideal Location For School
« Reply #99 on: March 17, 2013, 09:08:03 AM »
Here you go:

http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=6256.30;wap2
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)