Author Topic: And despite 'all being in this together' - the rich carry on getting richer...  (Read 3010 times)

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Offline Tobes

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20216031

... Capitalism has its drawbacks - ones which seriously threaten to undermine the legitimacy of those public school boys we elect to fix the things which are wrong with our society.

 :(


I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline moley

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http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-20216031

... Capitalism has its drawbacks - ones which seriously threaten to undermine the legitimacy of those public school boys we elect to fix the things which are wrong with our society.

 :(


But one of the nasty things about this is that in the same way that Communism in Russia wasn't really what Marx envisioned, I don't think "Capitalism" is quite what Adam Smith had in mind.

I need to dig it out later but I do remember a quotation that implied that anywhere that has special interest type of associations basically broke the concept of the free market....

I wish I could come up with a system that actually worked and where the greedy didn't ripple to the top

 :(

Offline Mellon

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Interesting article , capitalism in a nutshell....especially if you go back to to 1636 which is where capitalism started to kick off with the introduction of insurance and pensions, I personally don't have a huge problem with capitalism.

But then again its not really a suprise capitalism is making a return for those at the top as it has always been defended by conservatives and liberals, its been around for a while and its not going away anytime soon.
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the world together."

Offline Geoff Reid

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I bet there are as many labour millionaires as there are tory and liberal ones in Westminster.

There comes a point when the aquisition of personal wealth crosses political barriers and eclipses dogma. At that point I think the phrase 'we're all in this together' means something quite different to them than it does to us.

Offline Tobes

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What I thought was most interesting about the financial meltdown was that is proof to the nouveaux proles that those whom shareholders deem worthy of telephone number salaries due to their supposedly super-human intellects and abilities, could have conspired through sheer greed and short termism to effectively screw the entire global finance system.

Conceiving of a more simple error than lending more money than you can ever hope to recoup beggars belief - but that's what the super-rich achieved - and its the whole of society which bears the burden of that mistake - and will go on suffering for it for years to come. But unlike the cleaner fired for perceived poor performance, or the team leader in a call center 'let go', these wan£ers earn even bigger salaries despite their failures.

The world is an astounding place sometimes.
« Last Edit: November 07, 2012, 06:25:29 AM by Tobes »
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Des Morgan

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Conceiving of a more simple error than lending more money than you can ever hope to recoup beggars belief - but that's what the super-rich achieved


Tobes - dare i suggest you have slightly missed the point?  The people who lent money truly believed they would re-coup more money than they had lent out. The error they made was in believing their own hype and thinking they were such clever people. They just didn't understand the arithmetic.

On a much smaller scale let's take the example set by Coun Bluh Leader of SBC and a Chartered Accountant. Based on sales of £1m Digital City was going to make a net return of £700k. He believed this to be the case despite the fact the CEO of DC was being remunerated to the tune of over £100k pa. Of course you and I saw through this nonsense by applying a little logical thinking. SBC has lost circa £425k (considerably less than the bankers) but in context it's the same forces at play. Hubristic and overbearing

Offline Muggins

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Frightening isn't it?   And whats worse, they are all/both saying it wasn't their fault....

So neither have learned a lesson from the experience , so are likely to make the same mistake again :o
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Mart

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And whats worse, they are all/both saying it wasn't their fault....

Ah, and that's the constant isn't it?

What we presently lack is a swift means of chopping loonies off at the knees, very durable in the present climate is a loony.

It's like Catch 22 made real.

Gawd knows why I ain't thriving.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline DavidPayne

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Tobes - dare i suggest you have slightly missed the point?  The people who lent money truly believed they would re-coup more money than they had lent out. The error they made was in believing their own hype and thinking they were such clever people. They just didn't understand the arithmetic.

On a much smaller scale let's take the example set by Coun Bluh Leader of SBC and a Chartered Accountant. Based on sales of £1m Digital City was going to make a net return of £700k. He believed this to be the case despite the fact the CEO of DC was being remunerated to the tune of over £100k pa. Of course you and I saw through this nonsense by applying a little logical thinking. SBC has lost circa £425k (considerably less than the bankers) but in context it's the same forces at play. Hubristic and overbearing

I'll throw this gauntlett down not for the first time, as one with a sober sense of his own limitations and I have no doubt whatsoever, part of a body of significant capability encompassing millions in the UK alone - I'll do the management job of any highly paid executive that does not require specialist training, for half the salary and defer payment until the end of the first year, pending a peer assessment of my achievements - and never ask for a rise!

Pick it up Osborne, if you really have an interest in balancing the books, we are legion and could give a 'short-back-and-sides' to your payroll costs.

Offline itspavagain

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I'll throw this gauntlett down not for the first time, as one with a sober sense of his own limitations and I have no doubt whatsoever, part of a body of significant capability encompassing millions in the UK alone - I'll do the management job of any highly paid executive that does not require specialist training, for half the salary and defer payment until the end of the first year, pending a peer assessment of my achievements - and never ask for a rise!

Pick it up Osborne, if you really have an interest in balancing the books, we are legion and could give a 'short-back-and-sides' to your payroll costs.

If it's so easy, prey tell why you're not running your own multi-million pound business?

Offline Tobes

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If it's so easy, prey tell why you're not running your own multi-million pound business?

Perhaps he lacks the required elements of self-centred ruthless ambition and short-termist get-rich-today, damn tomorrow philosophy?  :wink:
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mellon

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If it's so easy, prey tell why you're not running your own multi-million pound business?

Perhaps he lacks the required elements of self-centred ruthless ambition and short-termist get-rich-today, damn tomorrow philosophy? 

i thought that was called human nature  ;D
"Duct tape is like the force. It has a light side, a dark side, and it holds the world together."

Offline Tobes

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In which case, the 'finest' examples of humanity are the least humane...
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline itspavagain

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If it's so easy, prey tell why you're not running your own multi-million pound business?

Perhaps he lacks the required elements of self-centred ruthless ambition and short-termist get-rich-today, damn tomorrow philosophy?  :wink:

If that's all it took we'd all be doing it.

Offline DavidPayne

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I'll throw this gauntlett down not for the first time, as one with a sober sense of his own limitations and I have no doubt whatsoever, part of a body of significant capability encompassing millions in the UK alone - I'll do the management job of any highly paid executive that does not require specialist training, for half the salary and defer payment until the end of the first year, pending a peer assessment of my achievements - and never ask for a rise!

Pick it up Osborne, if you really have an interest in balancing the books, we are legion and could give a 'short-back-and-sides' to your payroll costs.

If it's so easy, prey tell why you're not running your own multi-million pound business?

1. You don't know what I am not doing! - or in fact anything material about me save for my name, whoever you are.
2. What has owning a business got to do with it? The vast majority of over-paid executives in the private sector played no part in the initiation of the businesses that pay them and of course, the Public sector is not entrepreneurial.

Offline Mart

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I'll cock anything up for beer and fags. Maybe a monthly kebab as well.

I think the point is that these herberts apparently 'get in' because of some form of patronage rather than a notable aptitude, FUBAR it and drift quietly away without any retribution or smiting getting done.

So, a few of us, look on in a bemused fashion and think 'I could do that'. I'm perfectly capable of running anything into the ground, delivering piss poor goods and services and tossing as many employees on the scrap heap as you care to specify, perfectly happy to tug down a salary while I'm doing it as well.

If I were to cock up as mightily as some of these shits do I'd be out on me arse.

BBC chappy seems to have the gist of it.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline itspavagain

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1. You don't know what I am not doing! - or in fact anything material about me save for my name, whoever you are.
2. What has owning a business got to do with it? The vast majority of over-paid executives in the private sector played no part in the initiation of the businesses that pay them and of course, the Public sector is not entrepreneurial.

Well, you seem to think managing a multi-national company or even a government department is so easy, I was just wonder how you gained your experience of running a company with a hundred million plus turnover, tens of thousands of employees, offices in dozens of countries etc. in order to make that judgement call.

Offline moley

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1. You don't know what I am not doing! - or in fact anything material about me save for my name, whoever you are.
2. What has owning a business got to do with it? The vast majority of over-paid executives in the private sector played no part in the initiation of the businesses that pay them and of course, the Public sector is not entrepreneurial.


Well, you seem to think managing a multi-national company or even a government department is so easy, I was just wonder how you gained your experience of running a company with a hundred million plus turnover, tens of thousands of employees, offices in dozens of countries etc. in order to make that judgement call.


There are people who I believe earn their huge salaries.

And there are people who I believe do not.

Good example here:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/newsbysector/banksandfinance/9663242/Former-Bankia-director-admits-she-didnt-understand-accounts.html

If someone makes a huge success of their  business I think they are entitled to be rewarded for it.

However if they screw their company up totally I don't think they should be pocketing  millions out of it....  there doesn't seem to be enough distinction between success and failure (for me at least).

Moley

Offline Tobes

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Having witnessed a couple of the most highly paid UK execs up close, I'm not so sure that the management side really IS so difficult (they have underlings to do most of that for them!) - What IS incredibly difficult is balancing the lick-spittle/ruthless and politically astute skills necessary to climb the slippery pole. Being 'good' at what you do is far less important than not being seen to be responsible for carrying the can for anything or anyone else.

'Success' is also highly subjective. I think a successful company is one which does what its does in a sustainable way. To a shareholder wanting a quick return, five years hence (with all of the associated stresses for employees and their families etc.) is neither here nor there. Big profit now matters much much more than a long term investment paying more modest returns...

That in a nutshell is where our system became transparently unglued.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline moley

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When a business is just ticking over I think the management is just making sure no balls get dropped.

When it gets difficult is setting the right strategy to grow a business, or to keep a business alive when the market collapses or some other Black Swan event occurs.... which means that what people really need to get paid big ££££s for is setting up successful long term strategies.  The big danger is I've known several people who've clearly had a career progression strategy of looking good in the short term and hope that they get moved to the next rung up the greasy pole before the short term nature of their strategy gets noticed.

Moley