Author Topic: Story in Adver - Nick Martin  (Read 26606 times)

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Offline carole bent

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #80 on: October 27, 2012, 06:56:09 PM »
Good point , well corrrected Muggins - you're right -Martin Luther King spoke of  non action - not mistaken action.

Agree - ref not venom.... but not sure if ignorance is the right word - or whether it was done to satisfy a different agenda?

I'm personally inspired by courage, integrity, clear accountability and in people who step up to create better - whatever the background.  There seems to be plenty of scope.

At the Rivonia Trial in South Africa, Nelson Mandela said :
" I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. It is an ideal which I hope to live for and achieve. But if needs be, it is an ideal for which I am prepared to die."

Maybe this explains a little about why so many people refer to Mandela as one of the worlds most inspiring people.


Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #81 on: October 27, 2012, 08:21:55 PM »
************************* to which I would add that having, allegedly, reported it to her boss the following week, why it took eighteen months to get to Standards, a period during which the Defendant was elected Deputy Mayor?

No one has answered this question and how his niomination was not challenged as a consequence?

As for Roderick, as I have said elsewhere on this thread, will be desperate to keep Nick Martin where he is in The Deputy Mayorial and Mayorial positions which in effect neuters him politically until May 2014.  It is my opinion that Rod sees our Nick as his greatest oponent and will take expedient action to ensure that he cannot Question or Challenge him on Absolutely Anything for the next eighteen months.

And the opposition?

Coun Jim Grant, the Labour group leader, said: [my bold emphasis]

Quote from: Cllr Grant
“Firstly, I want to stress the importance of all of Swindon’s councillors behaving appropriately and respectfully to all residents and council officers. “For the mayor and deputy mayor, with their higher public profiles, this is perhaps even more important.

“I think the allegations and the judgement made against Coun Martin does make it more difficult for the Labour group to support his nomination to be the mayor of Swindon next year.” However, the Labour group will not make a final decision until closer to the time of the annual council meeting, when Swindon’s councillors decide who will be mayor and deputy mayor.

A predictable 'politically safe' answer which is also ambiguous, weak and politically expedient.  The standards committee published their verdict last week but the Labour group will wait another 7 months before it will announce what its position is?   This isn't an encouraging sign from someone who wants - expects in fact - to be leading the council at some point.

A short piece of advice Jim: Get real, real fast.....or get out of the way.  Swindon doesn't need or want another Bluh in the big seat, and it certainly doesn't need a political prevaricator who will wait to see which way the wind is blowing 7 months in the future to give a straight answer in the here and now ffs.

I think a number of people are looking at Labour and asking such questions. 

We are fast approaching the Highworth bye election and I understand that Jim is in charge of the Labour campaign.  In many ways the result, against a Labour lead in the national opinion poles of some 10% will determine as to whether or not the people see the Labour Party in Swindon as a viable alternative to the Free Spending and at the same time Master of Cuts Rod Bluh?

As for the Liberals they don't even count!
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Offline carole bent

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #82 on: October 27, 2012, 10:04:05 PM »
might seem a bit of random thread but here goes....

Just saw XFactor and the fantastic performance from Jahmene  - from what I hear from people who know him,  a truly lovely person who has had some terrible times in his life, but coming through it with enormous grace and clearly a fantastic talent.

I read somewhere that he has become seen as a big inspiration to many who have had troubling times  - brilliant - I don't know him personally but feel proud of this Swindon lad who is moving forward with such courage , dignity and spirit.









Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #83 on: October 28, 2012, 12:33:59 AM »
Quote
Maybe this explains a little about why so many people refer to Mandela as one of the worlds most inspiring people.


He is indeed recognised as ' one of the worlds most inspiring people' but he didn't actually achieve his stated aims 'I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities'

He promised so much but actually achieved very little - but that said no one can deny he has charisma a plenty.


Offline Muggins

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #84 on: October 28, 2012, 07:56:42 AM »
"As for Roderick, as I have said elsewhere on this thread, will be desperate to keep Nick Martin where he is in The Deputy Mayorial and Mayorial positions which in effect neuters him politically until May 2014.  It is my opinion that Rod sees our Nick as his greatest oponent and will take expedient action to ensure that he cannot Question or Challenge him on Absolutely Anything for the next eighteen months."

If anyo9en wanted to neutalise anyone, surely the way to do it in this situation is not to ignore the action and the 'verdict', surely that way it would effectively finish a career in politics or at least push the 'offender' to the very back benches.  Surely by supportting him, Bluh is keeping him where he is, much closer to the crown?

Des, if Mandela said 'I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities'. then he wasn't making any promises, he was expressing an ideal. And it seems to me that he kept true to that idea, even if he never able to produce it.
somethign i might add, he could never have done all by himslef anyway.

I read your last sentence as one of 'he had plenty of personality but no substance' and I'm fairly sure he did more than that.

 

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #85 on: October 28, 2012, 08:31:22 AM »
If anyo9en wanted to neutalise anyone, surely the way to do it in this situation is not to ignore the action and the 'verdict', surely that way it would effectively finish a career in politics or at least push the 'offender' to the very back benches.  Surely by supportting him, Bluh is keeping him where he is, much closer to the crown?

Des, if Mandela said 'I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities'. then he wasn't making any promises, he was expressing an ideal. And it seems to me that he kept true to that idea, even if he never able to produce it.
somethign i might add, he could never have done all by himslef anyway.

I read your last sentence as one of 'he had plenty of personality but no substance' and I'm fairly sure he did more than that.

M I don't think you understand Roderick's modus operendi!!

Any discussion about Nick Martin even emanating from him detracts from any attention to himself.

As for Des' comments about Mandela he is absolutely right, wonderful ideals but in the end it achieved very little.  The violence that prevails in South Africa today is nothing to be proud of and sadly I see this as being more of his legacy than the emancipation of the black majority.
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #86 on: October 28, 2012, 09:03:02 AM »
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Des, if Mandela said 'I have cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities'. then he wasn't making any promises, he was expressing an ideal.

And that in a nutshell is what is plainly wrong about the 'political class' - they have wonderful ideals (don't we all' but ) b]actions speak louder than words[/b] and what we see with monotonous regularity is a plethroa of fine words but little action to back them up. And where action does take place it against the background of idealogical frameworks and not neccessarily for the good of the whole country.

Mandela 'promised' to eliminate poverty in South Africa to raze the townships to the ground and build proper homes for the poor and displaced of South Africa. He became a global superstar, wined, dined and feted where ever he went. Whereas Tony Blair would have loved to be considered messianic, Nelson Mandel all but achieved that status in the eyes of his followers.

I recall any number of charismatic leaders achieving the same status and not one of them fulfilled the promises they made. 'By their works she shall know them' - works not words.

I daresay Coun Bluh has often cherished the ideal of a democratic and free society in which all persons live together in harmony and with equal opportunities. Does that make him an effective leader and has it enabled him to fulfil his 'promises' in our town. It does nothing other than single him out as idealistic, a nice quality to have but !!!!!!!

Offline carole bent

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #87 on: October 28, 2012, 09:16:55 AM »
Interesting where a thread goes ...what a complex world we live in.

The quote by Mandela was made at the trial - before imprisonment.
 I completely agree with Muggins about the ideal that he spoke of - In a world where attempts to bodyswerve away from taking responsibility seem to happen all too often ( when the potential penalty for saying the truth is so much slighter ) what a contrasting powerfully  statement he made both then & on leaving jail many years later.

We live in a very imperfect world - so where do you see perfection ? Who inspires you? What would you do differently?

 



Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #88 on: October 28, 2012, 10:05:19 AM »

We live in a very imperfect world - so where do you see perfection ? Who inspires you? What would you do differently?

Ooh crikey.... it's Sunday morning and I'm not going to church today, but I see the above as an invitation to climb into the virtual vile pulpit and deliver a sermon  >:D

Bacon and eggs must come first though, I don't fly well when partially fuelled :)

Offline Jean

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #89 on: October 28, 2012, 10:40:20 AM »

We live in a very imperfect world - so where do you see perfection ? Who inspires you? What would you do differently?

 


An interesting question, Carole and worthy of its own thread.

My inspiration and campaigning spirit came from my parents - both left wing (met at Speakers Corner!) - who fought for what they believed to be right with regard to equality, justice, peace and social issues. I believe that they brought me up with a strong moral code to do the right thing; to do as I would be done by and not to be a sheep. I may be a misfit in society but I would not do anything differently apart from the career I trained for (a dentist) for which I was totally unsuited mentally.   
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Offline carole bent

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #90 on: October 28, 2012, 10:41:18 AM »
Thanks Jean ,  I also had a great dad who inspired me , he came from a very poor background, little formal education & with one of the best brains and hearts Ive ever known. Never forgot where he came from, gave to everyone who he thought needed him without patronising in any way. He was an entrepreneur with a ingrained social conscience,  died when I was 15 & missed to this day.

As for Geoff......Go for it ! ( Crispy)  bacon & eggs sound good , funnily enough my dad ( being jewish but loving bacon ) would eat bacon " out " of the house" but could never bring himself to feel it was ok in  the " fridge"  - he knew it was hypocritical ( & very unlike him) but his way to handle it ...!

Enjoy your breakfast & look forward to reading " what inspires" at some stage.
ps - As an anorack ,  I only recently learnt how much fuel goes into the wings.... helps to  fly.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #91 on: October 28, 2012, 10:51:48 PM »
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Mandela 'promised' to eliminate poverty in South Africa to raze the townships to the ground and build proper homes for the poor and displaced of South Africa. He became a global superstar, wined, dined and feted where ever he went. Whereas Tony Blair would have loved to be considered messianic, Nelson Mandel all but achieved that status in the eyes of his followers.

I recall any number of charismatic leaders achieving the same status and not one of them fulfilled the promises they made. 'By their works she shall know them' - works not words.

Richard and Des agreeing on something?! I predict The Apocalypse!

As two people prepared to be extremely condemnatory and critical, I would offer this slightly alternative view on your unflattering judgement of the achievements of Nelson Mandela. As Carol said, aspirations and dreams are what we aim for. Delivering them is a collective responsibility - not just that of the mouthpiece who expresses what the masses yearn for.

What those of us who were in South Africa in the early 90s think of as his real achievement is to have successfully managed a transition from a form of fascism to a more egalitarian form of government. Of course it is still flawed, riven by corruption and stymied by a mixture of greed and naivety, but most South Africans who I know are still amazed that the transformation took place within such a spirit of hope and reconciliation and most believe it was an enormous step forward for their country. That was and continues to be one extraordinarily positive legacy.

NOT something which Blair, Brown, Cameron or Clegg are going to be able to claim.

I think Madela's achievements speak rather louder, don't you?

BACK on thread - If Nick Martin's actions and words don't show any contrition or acknowledge that he was judged to have done wrong, do people feel that he's still an appropriate individual to be Mayor...?

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #92 on: October 29, 2012, 09:01:48 AM »
Tobes I agree that Mandela is a wonderful man who prevented a blood bath following the transition of power from a white to a majority black government.

What I have a problem with is that I believe the truth was available under the old regime and now it is not.  Take Johannesburg in the 1990's.  It is a fact that British Airways crew were not allowed out of their hotels without an Armed escort.  What does that tell you?

Also I met a man in Lincoln in 2001 on a sales call and he told me he had just returned to this country after a thirty five year stay in South Africa a country which he loved.  So I asked him why he came home to which he replied 'when your brother and your best friend are shot dead at traffic lights you do not feel too safe.' 

I have sadly heard similar stories elsewhere, but this does not detract from the fact that it could have been a lot lot worse and the credit for that has to go to Mandela.

As for Nick Martin, I am disappointed not to have heard some form of comment from him.  Does this imply guilt or has the Conservative Party damage limitation machinery in the form of their political assistant, someone extraordinarily involved with everyday Swindon, come into play?  One thing is for sure unless someone makes something of it now Nick will be Mayor next May.  Over to you Jim Grant.
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Offline Rochelle

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #93 on: October 29, 2012, 11:47:19 AM »
Was away last week at a social services conference, so have been catching up what's been happening here since getting back...this is an interesting thread to say the least.
The people who most inspired me were my grandparents, Robert and Ellen Hunter ( for whom my children are named).They taught me all I needed to know about how to live a good life, I will be eternally grateful to them.
When I was younger I did  a lot of bar work. Obviously there was a lot of banter, some inappropriate behaviour etc. Nothing I couldn't handle. After all, I'd signed up for it with a level of awareness of what the work entailed and the job suited my personality. I never felt out of my depth.
However, when my boss was inappropriate, I reported him because that was something else, it was about misuse of power, exploitation and was definately not something i'd signed up for. We are all entitled to be treated with respect and dignity, whatever our job or position. It is not easy to take that step and complain and it is not something to be undertaken lightly, but it is worth doing, for your own sake and for the sake of others who may find themselves unable to take action if they find themselves in a similar situation.
I would expect any man of mature years to have learned to moderate his behaviour and know how to behave in a professional manner. There are a number of reasons why he might not do so, most if not all of them unpalatable
I would also expect any man who fell short of the standards of behaviour expected of him to step down from any role which conferred upon him any level of recognition or enhanced status. If he did not so willingly and I had the power, I would force him. Failing that I would/will withdraw my support ( had I given it in the first place...)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #94 on: October 29, 2012, 11:50:21 AM »
hmm, Rochelle a very interesting and thought provoking post.   :coffee:

so are you going to have a word with your leader?
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Offline Rochelle

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #95 on: October 29, 2012, 03:55:13 PM »
 I will certainly be making my feelings quite clear to the rest of the group including the leader yes

Offline jennyb

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #96 on: October 29, 2012, 04:24:51 PM »
If the deputy mayor does not have the ability to judge what is or isn't appropriate behaviour in a business situation in which he is in attendance in an official capacity then that is of concern.

In my opinion that renders him unfit to hold elected office.

He should do the right thing and step down.
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #97 on: October 29, 2012, 06:35:27 PM »
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He should do the right thing and step down

Whilst i agree with the sentiment - your opinion is precisely that 'yours' and not necessarily shared universally.

Some might say that the issue is a 'storm in a teacup' and their opinion is just as valid.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #98 on: October 29, 2012, 06:46:31 PM »
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Tobes I agree that Mandela is a wonderful man who prevented a blood bath following the transition of power from a white to a majority black government.

Yup. Whatever else his failings (his choice of megalomaniac wife being a good start!) - he will be remembered and revered for that at least.

Quote
What I have a problem with is that I believe the truth was available under the old regime and now it is not.  Take Johannesburg in the 1990's.  It is a fact that British Airways crew were not allowed out of their hotels without an Armed escort.  What does that tell you?

It tells us that life in SA is cheap. I don't need second hand anecdotes to convince me either - in the relatively short time I was there I had a loaded .44 magnum waved in my face, I saw someone get shot in the head at point black range, I tried to stop a man who turned out to be a serial rapist and a murderer and had a gun forced into my hand and was told to shoot someone.... And when I expressed 'mild concern' as to the nature of the place, I got the 'Ach maaaan, something far worse happened to me last week' from the people living there. Its since got a LOT worse too!

What happened under the old regime is that, thanks to the Group Areas Act, this kind of hideous violence was contained and concentrated within the townships. As a black friend of mine said (with a doleful shrug) when I told him that I thought the explosive escalation in crime in joberg showed something was going wrong; 'Man, this is the kind of kack we've been living with our whole lives. All thats happened now is that the whites are seeing it on their doorstep'. Out of interest, this same guy was being given a hard time by some old-school bone-head at the company we worked at. One day he took me to one side - 'You know what pisses me off more than anything about this Boer idiot? That for R100 I could speak to a Tsotsi and have him taken out tomorrow.'  Its the reality of that kind of cheapness of life which makes glib observations of the supposed 'failure' of Mandela all the more silly in my view.

As to the 'truth'? The crime stats are there for all to see, aren't they? J'oberg is a crime war-zone and renowned as such worldwide.

Quote
Also I met a man in Lincoln in 2001 on a sales call and he told me he had just returned to this country after a thirty five year stay in South Africa a country which he loved.  So I asked him why he came home to which he replied 'when your brother and your best friend are shot dead at traffic lights you do not feel too safe.' 

Yup. Some genuinely terrible things have happened since to some of my closest friends living out there. Horrific.

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I have sadly heard similar stories elsewhere, but this does not detract from the fact that it could have been a lot lot worse and the credit for that has to go to Mandela.

Agreed.

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As for Nick Martin, I am disappointed not to have heard some form of comment from him.  Does this imply guilt or has the Conservative Party damage limitation machinery in the form of their political assistant, someone extraordinarily involved with everyday Swindon, come into play?  One thing is for sure unless someone makes something of it now Nick will be Mayor next May.  Over to you Jim Grant.

I guess there's a difficult line to tread regarding being seen to be being politically opportunist, but yes, this ought to be followed up. If there's no contrition or recognition of the offence/stress/upset he caused, then serious questions ought to be asked - as this man is going to be the figurehead for the Borough for a year, representing everyone in it to the rest of the country, and through twinning, internationally too. Step up the the plate, Jim.

Quote
Some might say that the issue is a 'storm in a teacup' and their opinion is just as valid.

... And I'd say 'some' were talking errant balls to try and down-play an issue which Nick Martin himself unnecessarily blew into a storm. Unless of course you believe that the pre-panel Adver vstory wasn't an orchestrated PR release?

Surely the way Nick Martin has handled this issue shows very least shows an appalling lack of diplomacy or judgement - two aspects of character key to being a good Mayor?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mart

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #99 on: October 29, 2012, 07:57:57 PM »
I wonder if Mr Blair would be averse to being banged up for 20 odd years?

I think it is worth the gamble as I for one would respect him so much more, in fact I'd recommend it as a means to add gravitas to anyone's political persona. A bit of suffering for one's beliefs could be a surefire hit at the ballot box.

You know it makes sense.
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