Author Topic: Story in Adver - Nick Martin  (Read 26576 times)

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Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #20 on: October 21, 2012, 03:04:02 AM »
The verdict is out - Coun Martin acted inappropriately towards Helen Miah a senior officer by touching her hair, using the phrase 'Ducks Arse' in describing her hair style and saying he had wanted to say and do that all night.

"He acted inappropriately" - Agreed.


Let's see if that is what any reasonable person would call sexual harrassment. Starting with the easy issue of the three. The dictionary definition of 'Duck's Arse) is 'The duck's ass (or, in the UK, duck's arse) is a haircut style that was popular during the 1950s' - I think a reasonable person would accept that if Coun Martin referred to Ms Miah's hair cut as being a 'Duck's Arse' he was being descriptive and not offensive.

I think an even more reasonable person, having already agreed that Cllr Martin had acted inappropriately toward Helen Miah, might be more likely to consider that his actions and words did constitute sexual harassment if Helen Miah felt that she had been sexually harassed by Cllr Martin.  An offender may claim that their intent was not to sexually harass another person, but stating that after the act had happened obviously doesn't stop the 'victim' feeling that they had been sexually harassed, either during the event or afterwards. They may later understand and forgive an accidental or even a deliberate act of harassment, but how does one remove the feeling of being harassed at the instant of speech or contact?  You can't retrospectively remove or cancel a persons feelings from yesterday any more than you can make a broken leg not-have-happened. 


As for touching her hair - given he was not found guilty of 'running his finger up her neck' as claimed, but only of touching her hair, have we truly reached a situation where a person's hair is now off limits in the same way as parts of the anatomy quite correctly are

That the committee found him 'not guilty' of touching her neck doesn't mean that he didn't do it, just that the comittee have taken his word over hers and produced an official version of events in which he is 'only a little bit guilty'.  I'm afraid that years of watching SBC committees agreeing on versions of truth which are politically expedient, rather than accurate and truthful, has left me cynical, pedantic and willing to scrutinise every word said in defence or praise of all of them.  It's a shame that Helen Miah didn't make a police complaint - I'd have far more faith in a CPS decision to prosecute/not prosecute than I'll ever have in an SBC standards committee 'report'.

As for his silly schoolboy comment that he had wanted to touch her hair and tell her it was 'Duck's Arse' - that is quite pathetic but hardly the stuff of a sexual harrassment claim.

Why not?, had Cllr Martin been caught making comments and stroking the hair of a Sikh gentleman, would that gentleman be wrong to say he felt racially or religiously harassed by the actions and words?  Applying a different moral standard to women who object to being touched against their will feels like a very backwards step to me.  I'd also point out that, to any women smaller than a Russian shotputter, Nick Martin could never appear 'schoolboy'ish'.  He's a big, ex-rugby playing bloke who towers over most women.  Other big blokes are usually very aware of 'looming' and accidental intimidating birds, other do it deliberately. 

I know Helen and feel sure she is more than capable of dealing with the likes of Coun Martin or indeed any man who seeks to invade her space. Sadly there does appear to be a festering sore between the two of them with Helen having made a complaint about Coun Martin on a previous occasion some years ago. This does have the whiff of 'timely vengeance' about it.

Or not. It is equally possible that Cllr Martin has now behaved inappropriately towards Helen Miah on at least two occasions that we know of.  That she has complained twice does not make her a liar and shouldn't lessen the degree of scrutiny applied to each complaint. Lets not forget that Cllr Martin has just been found partially guilty of something he altogether denied so the suggestion that Helen Miah is somehow crying wolf or being vindictive doesn't really seem to fit the evidence or the circumstances. Lest we forget too quickly, Cllr Martin told the Adver:

Quote from: Cllr Nick Martin
"I think it’s outrageous.  “That’s because the allegations are untrue. And the words that are being invented, they’re out of character of the sort of things I would say at a public function. “The words put together might have been a little rude, but I didn’t say them.

“Just because somebody else from the cultural area of the council corroborated the words doesn’t necessarily mean I said them.”

But the 'outrageous' accusations were true, weren't they Cllr....

Having said all of that I do think Coun Martin needs to be more careful as we have reached a stage in the evolution of relationships where to smile 'wrongly' might be deemed a 'lear' by some, why didn't she just hit him if she was so offended   or was this a case of 'revenge is a dish best served cold'

Revenge for what Des?, what do you know that we don't?  As for her thumping him, that may actually have been his intent - because only a fracking moron would deliberately approach, touch and pass personal comments to an employee of the council who had already made one complaint against him. 

Cllr Martin has already indicated that he thought there was a connection between this complaint against him and the actions he intended to take towards the council department in which Helen Miah works, and this cause me to wonder whether his actions were a calculated and deliberate attempt to pressure/incite the woman into doing something rash, (perhaps, as Des suggests, strike him in response), which could then be used to remove her from the political equation. 

Similarly provocative tactics, (although not overtly sexual), were used to oust Sarah Finch-Crisp from her post at Lydiard Park.

To be clear I think Coun Martin to be a prat but nothing else

Would your public opinion of him be harsher if he wasn't a Mason Des?  Just asking....  :wink:

General Question: How long do we think Helen Miah will last at SBC?

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #21 on: October 21, 2012, 09:11:45 AM »
Quote
Or not. It is equally possible that Cllr Martin has now behaved inappropriately towards Helen Miah on at least two occasions that we know of. 


Not sure this is true. Helen made a complaint about his conduct in relation to her department, I am not privy to why and I never stated it was about a similar type of incident. I suppose its natural to make the assumption that the two events are of the same nature but its not neccessarily the case

Quote
That she has complained twice does not make her a liar and shouldn't lessen the degree of scrutiny applied to each complaint.


Couldn't agree more

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Would your public opinion of him be harsher if he wasn't a Mason Des

Geoff when you 'just ask' on TS it generally means that its what you think. Frankly I am bemused that such a question is asked of me with the inference being that because I am a Freemason I would defend Coun Martin irresepective of the truth of the matter. The exact opposite is the case, Coun Martin being a Freemason is totally irellevant to my views on the matter.Indeed i can give you my word that I neither thought or considered his being a Freemason when placing my post.

And yes I accept my views are not in line with the current movement where every nuance, every action and indeed every thought must be carefully considered just in case offence is given. I am sure the fact that we both like brass band music would not be worth a mention. I am happy to state my public and private opinion of Coun Martin - see end of post

I accept 100% the right of Helen Miah to be offended by any action or comment made to her, indeed I reserve that right to myself so it would be hypocritical for me to think otherwise. However, taking offence is one thing, using the might of SBC to deal with the matter is another (in my view) and yes i agree with you she could and possibly should have referred this to the police; although I think they would have given it short thrift whereas the officer core of SBC would 'support her'. Which I fully understand.

I consider Coun Martin's actions to be those of a 'prat' - others may think differently.

I actually don't like Coun Martin as a person, he is a bit of a bully boy in the mould of one of his former colleagues  but then he probably doesn't think too well of me - that's life, we can rub along through life.

Now let me ask you a question Geoff - if Coun Martin wasn't a Conservative with a knack for good election organisation would you be so quick to condemn him?

Finally to your final question. I think Helen will be fine at SBC just as many other modestly competent officers will be.


Offline Tobes

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #22 on: October 21, 2012, 09:46:09 AM »
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The exact opposite is the case, Coun Martin being a Freemason is totally irellevant to my views on the matter.Indeed i can give you my word that I neither thought or considered his being a Freemason when placing my post.

So, your word is good, despite a potential conflict of allegiance...  but you imply that Helens word may be less so...? I'm interested to know your benchmark for presuming bias. In your earlier post you imply that Helen 'may' be biased because of previous encounters with Nick, but you can take the moral highground and assume we're not going to smell a rat due to your shared membership of a secretive big-boys club which lists mutual assistance as one of its criteria for membership...

That said...

Quote
Now let me ask you a question Geoff - if Coun Martin wasn't a Conservative with a knack for good election organisation would you be so quick to condemn him?

Des has a point here, Geoff, just as valid as the one you make about his free-masonry membership. Once you condemned Labour almost without respite or exception. Now, thanks to your open loathing of Bluh and his associates, you do the polar opposite. How sure can you be that you're being equally objective?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mart

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #23 on: October 21, 2012, 10:16:30 AM »
We live in an age where there are some things you can't do.

You could do these things in previous times and indeed hold positions of responsibility and be generally respected while you were doing them.

There was a time where patting ladies on the bum and calling them 'treacle' was considered quite enlightened in the workplace, now it's the stuff of parody.

For someone who professes to hold a position of responsibility, I suppose that's what you'd call it, to fail to grasp that indicates they are either a dumb arse or ignorant, or possibly both. To then do something so outwardly questionable to someone with whom you have previous suggests that person is either dumber than the average dumb arse or a teeny bit arrogant.

I enjoy fairly amicable relationships with many people but the list of females, or males now I think of it, I would lay hands on in any way is very short, as short as one probably. To then accompany that unsolicited touching with a, in my view, slightly unsettling comment kind of reinforces the impression the action was entirely inappropriate.

My employer would almost certainly have fired me regardless of how I wore my trousers or how I voted and I would not have been at all surprised, diversity, bullying and harassment policies are all on the books and, I thought, commonplace.

You may have a view on that if you are of a certain age or gender, but that's where we are so you'd either get with the programme or accept the consequences.

Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #24 on: October 21, 2012, 11:17:14 AM »
Quote
but you imply that Helens word may be less so...? I'm interested to know your benchmark for presuming bias

I actually have not implied that Helen's account of the incident is wrong or that her honest conviction to being distressed is in any way less than genuine, and if that is how i have come across I apologise.. I have most certainly questionned the decision to refer this to the standards board but equally accept that it is a matter for Helen to decide upon. I also am concerned that there appears to be 'history' between Helen and Coun Martin, a history which suggests that her first complaint was not actionned in the way she might have hoped for. It is, I suggest perfectly fair to raise the issue of the prior complaint in considering why Helen might have felt it necessary to elevate this matter to her boss.

Helen's decision to take her complaint 'up the ladder' cannot be based on bias as bias doesn't exist - it's a matter of fact she felt uncomforable with the actions of Coun Martin.

I am not biased in favour of Coun Martin, indeed Helen will (if she could) would tell you that we know each other and enjoy a love of the arts in swindon and we have worked together on at least one major musical project in the town. I consider her as someone I know well enough to feel able to exchange what is commonly called a 'social kiss' upon meeting.

I do like your reference to "your shared membership of a secretive big-boys club which lists mutual assistance as one of its criteria for membership"  Freemasonry is not a secret organisation - everyone knows about it, where Freemasons meet and what Freemasonry does in the town and further afield. It is no more secretive than Rotary,the Lions or the Buffs. It does excellent work in supporting local charities often with little fanfare. Yes we do enjoy a convivial meeting where we have a supper, again just like a Rotary lunch.  As for 'mutual assistance' if you are to quote selectively you allow me to place the context which is 'in all your laudable undertaking' I believe we would both agree that there was nothing laudable in what Coun Martin did and so 'mutual support' could not be forthcomimg.

Incidentally the Christian Faith like many others has a similar tenet which is expresed by the term 'do good unto all men but especially those of the household of faith'



Offline carole bent

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #25 on: October 21, 2012, 11:48:39 AM »
Seem to me like a culture of bullying and unacceptable behaviour has been able to exist and to continue in the borough apparently often unchecked for decades, alongside more positive work & relationships.

Some old style councillors ( not just party specific ) seem to have acted  for years as though perfectly entitled to " do what they like"  knowing that they have the full weight of their position - and in some cases - colleagues - behind them.
Are we now reaching a tipping point where more people have had enough, want better and are standing up to insist on this?

Winkling out the bad and highlighting the good seems like a start.



Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #26 on: October 21, 2012, 01:29:29 PM »

Quote from: Geoff Reid
Would your public opinion of him be harsher if he wasn't a Mason Des

Geoff when you 'just ask' on TS it generally means that its what you think. Frankly I am bemused that such a question is asked of me with the inference being that because I am a Freemason I would defend Coun Martin irresepective of the truth of the matter. The exact opposite is the case, Coun Martin being a Freemason is totally irellevant to my views on the matter.Indeed i can give you my word that I neither thought or considered his being a Freemason when placing my post.

Not at all Des.  If I were convinced you were conducting damage limitation for Cllr Martin out of lodge loyalty I would say so directly.  I expected you to clarify the level of support/non support of Cllr Martin and you didn't disappoint.




And yes I accept my views are not in line with the current movement where every nuance, every action and indeed every thought must be carefully considered just in case offence is given.

I'm fairly sure most readers would accept that mine are similarly non-aligned, but we are discussing the offensive and hypocritical (in my view) actions of a Councillor, current deputy Mayor and future Mayor, who happily supported a 'Vile Gentleman' hunt, (because I'd dared to mention that their political behaviour towards Council tenants reminded me of how the embryonic Nazi party behaved before WWII),......

....shortly before he himself committed an inappropriate act against a female employee of the council - an act which he later denied, (in fact it seems to me that he publicly lied in order to save himself and discredit his accuser), and the political 'ilk' muster just enough concern to give him a very gentle slap on the wrist by finding him a little bit guilty. 

The attendant irony and civic/political hypocrisy is self evident and, I suggest, that it is within this hypocritical and very selective application of 'standards' that the greatest amount of offence is felt by ordinary people.  Cllr Martin is still holding public office at Swindon Borough Council despite having been found guilty of behaving innapproriately towards a female employee of the council.  Moreover Cllr Martin deliberately tried to discredit the employee by claiming (in the local paper), that her complaint was untrue.

Personally I think he's even less fit to occupy public office than he and his colleagues claim me to be.  Dr Owen Lister was hounded from office for a much lesser transgression than Nick Martin's.


Now let me ask you a question Geoff - if Coun Martin wasn't a Conservative with a knack for good election organisation would you be so quick to condemn him?

I like to think so - I'm not as partisan as other would like you to believe and, (believe this or not, it makes no odds to me), I actually like Nick Martin, but I can phrase my answer better by saying this:  If my Son held a similar position of responsibility as that held by Cllr Martin,  and I found him to have behaved as Cllr Martin did to a subordinate or employee....he would have been sporting a black eye shortly afterwards.  I might also be missing a couple of teeth, but you get the point.  That said I have every faith that Da Mellon wouldn't behave like that, it's not how he was brought up.

Wouldn't it be fairer to show or find me an opposition councillor who is/has behaved in the same way and then judge any political bias I hold by what I say/do in relation to that event?

Incidentally, it may be of interest to learn that what Cllr Martin did, i.e touching someone without their consent, can be described as either 'assault' under common law or 'battery' under criminal law.  I think Nick Martin would have genuinely needed his barrister had Helen Miah chosen to make a police complaint.

Finally to your final question. I think Helen will be fine at SBC just as many other modestly competent officers will be.

I reckon she's on the list, at least until the majority of one vanishes.


Finally:

Seem to me like a culture of bullying and unacceptable behaviour has been able to exist and to continue in the borough apparently often unchecked for decades, alongside more positive work & relationships.

Some old style councillors ( not just party specific ) seem to have acted  for years as though perfectly entitled to " do what they like"  knowing that they have the full weight of their position - and in some cases - colleagues - behind them.

It goes hand-in-hand with the last vestiges of quill pen democracy and the holier-than-thou attitudes of a few 'eminent' and 'Old Guard' Borough Councillors who still believe that they are entitled to respect from the very people they regularly and freely abuse.


Are we now reaching a tipping point where more people have had enough, want better and are standing up to insist on this?

Winkling out the bad and highlighting the good seems like a start.

Perhaps we are. I certainly hope so.

Offline Brian V Cockbill

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #27 on: October 21, 2012, 01:55:15 PM »
As a person who sat through part of the Hearing on Friday, including the evidence given by Janice Banks and Helen Miah, examination and cross examination by Cllr Martin's barrister a Mr Parry (I believe).   Can I offer a few bits of information that I witnessed at the hearing as opposed to Des Morgan who was not present.
Ms Banks evidence was clear and factual and was congratulated for her presentation from all sides with which I would concur.    Mrs Miah, came across as one, irrespective of the outcome and rightly or wrong was genuinely upset by the incident at the social event.    Cllr Martin's legal representative tried to imply that Mrs Miah held a grudge against the Cllr. regarding his policies and views about Lydiard Park.    I was not convinced by this argument nor it appears were the Panel.   Although I was not present to hear Cllr Martin's evidence I gathered he was going to dispute he touched Mrs Miah and certainly not in any way that might have been considered in a sexual manner.   It looks as if the Panel's finding falls somewhere between the two views of the parties.   However, the barrister did no service to his client by an inappropriate remark to Mrs Miah and was forced by the Hearing's Chair, Cllr. Fay Howard to apologise and withdraw it - but like all such incidents the damage and distress had been caused.   
Finally , I would just say that Des Morgan's langauge regarding his views about Cllr. Martin ("prat") doesn't sound very good coming from one brother freemason about another.
Brian V Cockbill       

Offline Des Moffatt

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #28 on: October 21, 2012, 02:19:33 PM »
I think we should have a debate about just what bullying is.
Is bullying using physical prowess, wealth, position or intellectual ability to humiliate and or control another person. Can bullying also be achieved by falsely presenting as being oppressed by another person. In industry and commerce how do we separate the effective manager who demands the best from all they contact from the bully who exploits their position for ego gratification? Should we accept that position gives someone the right to implement bad decisions? Is the TU rep who mimics the managers stutter to make that point behaving inappropriately?
There are people around who appear to those in positions of power as complete bullies. Should we note how they treat the office cleaner before deciding if they are a bully? If you sneeringly presume that all Councillors are corrupt don’t be surprised if they react. The Councillor who can be deflected easily by aggression, sarcasm, the office holders wisdom or position or even the data protection act is of no use whatever to the elderly recently widowed woman who had unwarranted legal action threatened for non-payment of Council Tax.

Offline oldtowner

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #29 on: October 21, 2012, 02:25:27 PM »

I'm fairly sure most readers would accept that mine are similarly non-aligned, but we are discussing the offensive and hypocritical (in my view) actions of a Councillor, current deputy Mayor and future Mayor, who happily supported a 'Vile Gentleman' hunt,

The attendant irony and civic/political hypocrisy is self evident and, I suggest, that it is within this hypocritical and very selective application of 'standards' that the greatest amount of offence is felt by ordinary people.  Cllr Martin is still holding public office at Swindon Borough Council despite having been found guilty of behaving innapproriately towards a female employee of the council.   
 

And where is the 'strong' Leader in all of this. He was quick to go after the 'Vile Gentleman' but has been conspicuously silent when it is one of his own.

Just as he never took any action when Cllr Bawden made his 'Children die outside schools.....'statements. Statements many people found offensive.

The strength of a stong Leader is to be fair and consistent. Cllr Bluh is ,in the eyes of many, neither.

Cllr Bluh should be removing Cllr Martin of the deputy mayor role. I am sure that the people of Swindon do not want civic dignatries who have behaved in such a manner to attain the position of Mayor.

The people of Swindon deserve better.

Offline oldtowner

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #30 on: October 21, 2012, 02:35:45 PM »
I think we should have a debate about just what bullying is.

My starter for 10 would be a prospective local council candidate and agent who threatened to take legal action against an independent prospective local council candidate for allegedly "identifying' him in her election leaflet.

Yet when a major political party actually name the local council candidate no action is taken against the party or the candidates on the leaflet by the individual or the agent.

Offline jennyb

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #31 on: October 21, 2012, 02:43:25 PM »
As a person who sat through part of the Hearing on Friday, including the evidence given by Janice Banks and Helen Miah, examination and cross examination by Cllr Martin's barrister a Mr Parry (I believe).   Can I offer a few bits of information that I witnessed at the hearing as opposed to Des Morgan who was not present.
Ms Banks evidence was clear and factual and was congratulated for her presentation from all sides with which I would concur.    Mrs Miah, came across as one, irrespective of the outcome and rightly or wrong was genuinely upset by the incident at the social event.    Cllr Martin's legal representative tried to imply that Mrs Miah held a grudge against the Cllr. regarding his policies and views about Lydiard Park.    I was not convinced by this argument nor it appears were the Panel.   Although I was not present to hear Cllr Martin's evidence I gathered he was going to dispute he touched Mrs Miah and certainly not in any way that might have been considered in a sexual manner.   It looks as if the Panel's finding falls somewhere between the two views of the parties.   However, the barrister did no service to his client by an inappropriate remark to Mrs Miah and was forced by the Hearing's Chair, Cllr. Fay Howard to apologise and withdraw it - but like all such incidents the damage and distress had been caused.   
Finally , I would just say that Des Morgan's langauge regarding his views about Cllr. Martin ("prat") doesn't sound very good coming from one brother freemason about another.
Brian V Cockbill     

I was not aware that these meetings were open to the public.

It is good that they are.
It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #32 on: October 21, 2012, 02:46:09 PM »
I recently asked a resident of Central Ward if she knew what the electoral connection between Cllr Des Moffat and Old Town Independent Candidate Kareen Boyd was during the 2012 local elections. She came up with the following quizzical answer after less than a minutes worth of thought:

Quote
"Were both of them bullied by Bluh during their campaigns?"


Makes 'yer think, don't it?

One was scrutinising the closure of the Banking Hall at Watt Tyler House and the other was scrutinising the decision to build a pop-up school on Croft and standing against Bluh in the election.  None of the former proved popular with Roddy.

Please see: Conservative Control By Coercion - Now Verging On Victimisation?

and:

Bluh Allegation Against Candidate Found To Be False?

Offline jennyb

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #33 on: October 21, 2012, 03:29:10 PM »
I recently asked a resident of Central Ward if she knew what the electoral connection between Cllr Des Moffat and Old Town Independent Candidate Kareen Boyd was during the 2012 local elections. She came up with the following quizzical answer after less than a minutes worth of thought:

Quote
"Were both of them bullied by Bluh during their campaigns?"


Makes 'yer think, don't it?

One was scrutinising the closure of the Banking Hall at Watt Tyler House and the other was scrutinising the decision to build a pop-up school on Croft and standing against Bluh in the election.  None of the former proved popular with Roddy.

Please see: Conservative Control By Coercion - Now Verging On Victimisation?

and:

Bluh Allegation Against Candidate Found To Be False?


My experience took place over a few weeks after Cllr Bluh 1st told my husband of his intent.

Cllr Bluh  came to my home some days later to hand deliver his letter through my letterbox.

Although my home was clearly occupied, he did not attempt to speak to either me or my family.

He was observed by friends in my home at the time as he walked away. 

I felt it inappropriate that someone came on to my property uninvited to deliver a letter of such a nature.

Quite why Cllr Bluh singled me out is unclear.

Kareen
It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline Outoftowner

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #34 on: October 21, 2012, 04:10:48 PM »
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Quite why Cllr Bluh singled me out is unclear.

Kareen

Because he knows, that you know, what he is up to?
What's it all about?

Offline carole bent

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #35 on: October 21, 2012, 04:34:59 PM »
 I dont believe that " all councillors are corrupt" any more than " all councillors are bullies."
I've met
a) many good ones
b) some bad ones
c) some good ones who sometimes behave badly
d) some who lie
e) some who tell the truth.
f) some who sometimes tell the truth
g) some who say they tell the truth ... then lie.
h) some who want to do better, but allow bad stuff to happen
i) some who want better standards in future

So.....  plenty of opportunities for improvement?

Offline jennyb

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #36 on: October 21, 2012, 04:36:53 PM »
Quote
Quite why Cllr Bluh singled me out is unclear.

Kareen

Because he knows, that you know, what he is up to?


All I have tried to do is joined up thinking... why would that be a worry ?
It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #37 on: October 21, 2012, 05:00:07 PM »
Quote
Quite why Cllr Bluh singled me out is unclear.

Kareen

Because he knows, that you know, what he is up to?

All I have tried to do is joined up thinking... why would that be a worry ?

Because he feels threatened Jenny, simple as that.

But he is completely unaware of the tenaciousness of the Scots Lass who knows what's right and what's wrong and is prepared to fight for it.

All these events colectively will turn a stream into a torrent, it is only a question of when!
All my posts are my own opinion and do not represent any political organization or group

Offline Muggins

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #38 on: October 21, 2012, 05:14:23 PM »
Lil' Eric :-D Small | Large


In case Helen wants to know what to do the next time - last few seconds of the film.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Story in Adver - Nick Martin
« Reply #39 on: October 21, 2012, 06:39:19 PM »
Quote
Finally , I would just say that Des Morgan's langauge regarding his views about Cllr. Martin ("prat") doesn't sound very good coming from one brother freemason about another.

Brian - you actually make a good point but I am glad to say that calling someone a 'prat' as opposed to a 'pleb' doesn't quite stir the emotional response of being traumatised, hurt and generally to suffer a fit of the vapours.

I am sure Coun Martin (who incidentally i have never ever met or seen at a Freemason's Lodge) is more than capable of telling me whether he is offended by my description of him in relation to his conduct.