Author Topic: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss  (Read 22006 times)

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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #80 on: November 12, 2012, 04:59:50 PM »
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I think Outer and Ph1 have the idea, although their papers might end up in the bin, if there is enough of them going in the bin, it will be noted, and hopefully investigated as to why.

And if they 'spoil' the paper it will be recorded as such and in the analysis of the vote we who have a keen interest in such things will be able to point out that x number of people made their views known by 'spoiling their voting paper'.  Maybe it's only whisper in the wind but a whisper can travel a long way.

Geoff, we know each other well enough to discuss this subject from an objective stance - I know yuo are very principled and I admire the psoition you are taking

Offline Tobes

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #81 on: November 12, 2012, 06:42:44 PM »
So Des, help me understand - essentially your argument would have to follow that if someone advanced the ridiculous concept of politicising all sorts of roles - lets say School Heads, Army Generals, Lollypop men and women etc - then you would 'have' to join in with the farce and give your vote to elect them too....?

Personally, if I'm offered four flavours of turd, I'd still rather avoid taking a bite, rather than choosing a favourite and becoming a de facto coprophage, thank you very much.

(...mind you, some people will swallow ANY $hit, as long as it has their party rosette attached to the steaming pile...)

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I think Outer and Ph1 have the idea, although their papers might end up in the bin, if there is enough of them going in the bin, it will be noted, and hopefully investigated as to why.

And if a large percentage of the population stay at home, it will have exactly the same effect. You can bet your bottom dollar the media will be awaiting the results and to examine the turnout to make exactly that point.

Whoever is 'elected' will have no realistic legitimacy or mandate in most of the areas they are supposed to 'represent' - and the impact and scope of the management of their limited powers will be crippled as a result.

I'd quite like to see some crazy candidates elected to these meaningless roles to show the stupidity of the process. But we know why the political establishment are loving this - its simply another example of how they can extend their philosophical tribalism into institutions who are too independent from their meddlings for their liking, as they know their sponsored candidates already have a huge headstart over any independent.

Participating in this stupidity marks the thin end of a wedge which can (and probably will) be extended into all other areas of public institution too. Instead of someone being employed in a role according to their expertise, it'll be much more likely that we'll see more elections according to populism, political support, party backing and campaign funding.

Democracy dies a little more by the misguided hands of those who use it for the purpose of career and manifesto, rather than the real delivery of service...

 :'(
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mart

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #82 on: November 12, 2012, 07:25:20 PM »
Sorry Tobes, call me old fashioned, but I can't agree.

Go and spoil a ballot paper. That way noone can be in any doubt.


I'm going to draw a willy on mine.

That way I know I've voted for the winning candidate. In a few months you'll be saying I was visionary.

I'm looking forward, sort of, to rabid right wingers running Plod in one area, cuddly wuddly types in another and pinko socialists in another.

Bang go the last vestiges of balanced policing, it'll be like an American film, Sheriff Buford T Justice running the gaff in one area and Frank Furillo in another.

Bagsy Dixon of Dock Green. Altogether now.

http://www.televisiontunes.com/Dixon_of_Dock_Green.html
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #83 on: November 12, 2012, 10:02:38 PM »
Mart - you stand for the role and I swear I'll vote for you!!!
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

ph1lc

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #84 on: November 12, 2012, 10:37:55 PM »
S
(...mind you, some people will swallow ANY $hit, as long as it has their party rosette attached to the steaming pile...)


 :'(

Yep right there Tobes - they did in Old Town and Shaw.

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #85 on: November 12, 2012, 10:39:44 PM »
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I'd quite like to see some crazy candidates elected to these meaningless roles to show the stupidity of the process.

What - more crazy than John Prescott or Michael Mates or Vera Baird??

Actually Tobes we probably agree on more than you imagine with regard to the PCC elections, we certainly agree that the system of voting is odd and could quite easily throw up a deal whereby the second choice could end up winning.

I suppose in a way you are right in that 'if' ever the situation arose whereby some people in public life were elected, I would probably vote; that is after i considered the candiadtes very carefully

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #86 on: November 13, 2012, 12:33:11 AM »
D'oh!

All along I was going to make a vote box for Judge Dredd and another one for Robocop.

Now I'm going to be voting for a willy one of my original choices will have to go.

Which one? Which one?

aargh! now I'm running out of time to make a decision  :crazy2:
Proud to be gone

Offline Tobes

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #87 on: November 13, 2012, 06:30:17 AM »
Is this an election - or an erection?!

 >:D
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #88 on: November 13, 2012, 08:30:45 AM »
Tobes "And if a large percentage of the population stay at home, it will have exactly the same effect. You can bet your bottom dollar the media will be awaiting the results and to examine the turnout to make exactly that point."

And they will still come up with the wrong conclusion, and if they do perchance come up with the right one, them elected will still 'rule' and draw their own incorrect conclusions.
"
Whoever is 'elected' will have no realistic legitimacy or mandate in most of the areas they are supposed to 'represent' - and the impact and scope of the management of their limited powers will be crippled as a result."

Whilst you and I both agree with that, just look at what happening now to elected people, once in, they don't particularly care how they got there.  Can you see anyone getting elected saying, I got in, but only because........  so I will stand down so that someone will get a decent mandate, or Ok, it cost a lot to get me elected in so i will stay but I will be humble. 

No, they will get in - then they will follow their party line, based on whatever party that is position in parliament.

I don't think they will be limited in their powers, just perhaps in their credibilty, and they can easily ignore that, especailly if they don't mix with them that care about credibility or who are happy to use the position. 

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Rochelle

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #89 on: November 13, 2012, 10:03:48 AM »
My Daughter is LIVID...somehow having me as a mother hasn't totally put her off politics ( although apparently I'm properly boring)...to the extent that she is now studying government and politics at college.
Mind you her Dad and his girlfriend thought Mitt Romney was a member of a boyband which infuriated her so maybe they are responsible for her on-going engagement! :2funny:

Offline James

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2012, 01:58:15 PM »
Listening to and reading a number of articles leads me to think that the main reason for having PCCs in the first place is to have someone else to blame when cuts are made in the future.
This is yet another way of the national political classes to abdicate their responsility under the banner of "choice".

I don't like PCCs as a concept, but I still have not decided whether to vote or not.
I've always gone to the polling station in every election I have been eligable to vote in.
But I have abstained more than once.

It would be nice to have a letter I could write in each box, which could be used by anyone in all elections to indicate that you disagree with ALL of the candidates or  choices in referenda. If there was a consistent letter, it may even be possibel to gauge the level of mal-content :-)

How about: R  = reject the lot...

J

Offline Outoftowner

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2012, 02:07:22 PM »
This might really need another completely different thread but can anyone name anything, meaning a project or business or service, that elected politicians have managed well, meaning in the interests of the electorate, in the past?

Anyone...anything?...........................?
What's it all about?

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2012, 04:07:11 PM »

Outers last post.

I am coming to your polling station Outer, but I'm not going to vote!
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Des Moffatt

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2012, 05:24:15 PM »
I laughed out loud at the comment, “If John Prescott is the answer it must be a very stupid question.” I found it funny, we can all think of a replacement name for John.
Then I started to think of my time in politics locally and who might have been potential candidates that got elected and that filled me with alarm.
I could fill an entire page alphabetically, from all parties, before I got to Bluh.
Thinking of doing it worst first, Bluh is the first name on the page.
I can think of no role in public life more prone to power drunkenness.
Hopefully the Police will treat the elected Police and Crime Commissioner as a necessary impediment to good policing to be patronised and ignored to the best of their ability.
To be fair we are in with a chance of electing someone in Wiltshire who will merely be the Police force’s PR person, so that all right.
No it isn’t, at £80K per annum they will all be after it next time.

Offline Bassettina

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2012, 05:37:42 PM »
This might really need another completely different thread but can anyone name anything, meaning a project or business or service, that elected politicians have managed well, meaning in the interests of the electorate, in the past?

Anyone...anything?...........................?

Belgium survived 450 days without an elected government and they have really nice chocolate. And Tintin.

Offline Mart

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2012, 08:26:26 PM »
This might really need another completely different thread but can anyone name anything, meaning a project or business or service, that elected politicians have managed well, meaning in the interests of the electorate, in the past?

Anyone...anything?...........................?


Yes, I can think of something. It's called failure.

It really doesn't matter whether it is a business, project. The only thing that is a constant is failure. The sole variant is the degree of failure.

Sometimes it is abject.

Sometimes it is presented as mediocrity.

Sometimes, just sometimes, it is inexplicable survival. The project, business or service inexplicably survives in the manner of an overwatered pot plant.

Survival is in this instance eligible as failure. Before laying their giddy little visions all over the business, project or service we are promised improvement, shininess, vibrancy and any other amount of complete bollocks in thousands of words and glossy leaflets, so mere survival, inexplicable or otherwise, is failure.

Nimrod, aircraft carriers ('cept for the aircraft) NHS computer projects ad nauseam, come to think of it computer projects in general, all wars since The Falklands, Eurofighter, NHS and, oh bollocks, you know the rest.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2012, 08:21:22 AM »
You couldn't make it up - in todays Swindon Advertiser p14 there is an article on the election for PCCs. Six people were interviewed one of whom who was identified only as a 31 year old Campaign Manager said -"The vote is important to Wiltshire. I've voted by post for Paul Batchelor as he's the only candidate I've met"

Paul Batchelor is the Lib Dem Candidate - the 31 year old Campaign Manager who declared his vote for paul was none other than Dave Woods, Lib Dem councillor for Eastcott

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2012, 08:34:48 AM »
Oh Dear!  Oh dear! Oh Dear!   :'( :'( :'(

Dave, Dave, Is it responsible to vote for someone, just because they are the only one you've met???

I've more or less made my mind up that I'm not going to bother even turning up.  I know I should, I know I should make my protest, but I'm not going to use any battery on getting up to the Church to do it.  So i have put cost before principle again.

The only good thing I can see coming out of this is that the Church will get a days rental for it's hall probably replicated all over Wiltshire and the only bad thing about that is that the community centres have lost out because the polling stations are now in church halls.   
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Outoftowner

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2012, 12:54:29 PM »
Oh dear Muggins, will you still be coming to my polling station?  I was going find a Policeman’s outfit in my dressing up box and go to the polling booth as one of the chorus of The Pirates of Penzance singing, “When Constabulary duties to be done, a policeman’s lot is not a happy one…tra.. la” in order to remain anonymous when I coloured in my ballot paper.

(For those who say that  I am “spoiling” my paper, I’d like to think that I will be improving it, by making it look nice.)


[I don't quite agree on the Falklands War bit Mart. If the government had not scrapped the "proper" aircraft carriers and their complement of long rang, and airborne early warning aircraft and then indicated that HMS Endeavour was being withdrawn from the Antarctic, the Argentinians would not have dared move on The Falklands. Allowing an almost bankrupt South American dictatorship, whose Generals dripped with gold braid, an opportunity for brief popularity with their public was a mistake. It was our military that "managed" the government out of it, unfortunately with the loss of many lives. No, the whole Falklands affair was yet another British government error.]
What's it all about?

Offline the gorgon

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2012, 01:17:08 PM »
Looks as if Wiltshire is going to be the first police force to announce its remarkably low turn-out figures, sorry the result of the PCC election.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/10044764.All_eyes_will_be_on_voters_as_Wiltshire_is_first_to_vote_for_Police_Crime_Commisioner/