Author Topic: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss  (Read 21426 times)

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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #120 on: November 16, 2012, 10:16:51 AM »
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Some of them would be due to people not being familiar with the voting system but the rest were deliberate

I think it is clear that many people were not familiar with the system.

In the SA today a voter states they 'voted for the Conservative as first choice and the Lib Dem as second choice' What i suspect the voter never realised was that their second vote was never likely to be taken into account. I say 'never likely' on the basis that the Conservative was almost certainly going to make the top 2 on the first vote.

However, the voter who voted for the Liberal with their first vote and Labour with their second was spot on in that once the Liberal was 'eliminated' their second vote came into play

Confusing or what

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #121 on: November 16, 2012, 03:31:01 PM »
 
To not vote on the basis that 'I don't agree with the proposition' is a democratic choice but it has zero effect on the outcome.

I'd agree that not voting has zero effect on the outcome of the ballot outcome, i.e, a Police and Crime Commissioner has been elected although I note that he has been elected using a version of an electoral system which was recently rejected by British electorate in a national referendum.

I disagree that not voting has zero effect elsewhere, in fact the ultra low turnout and negligible support for any of the candidates already has the media's attention.  Politicians may try to spin this every which way but the simple fact is that the overwhelming majority of eligible voters did not lend their vote to any of the available candidates, and many of the pitiful few who did express a choice by voting have made statements similar to Des' below:

I didn't agree the need to have PCCs I would rather have had the PA with teeth, but having been presented with a situation where my objection would be like the proverbial fxxx in a thunderstorm, i then had to re-evaluate my thinking to look at the candidates and make a decision as to whether I could support any one of them.

I propose that anyone holding opinions similar to Des' - but who voted anyway - simply rubber-stamped a process which they say they didn't agree with, but then 'agreed with it' anyway by voting for a candidate for a post with which they didn't agree with. This is a kind of circular reasoning which I struggle to understand or accept, but which is probably much better understood by the Parliamentarians who are delivering unto us an increasing poisonous version of pick and mix democracy. 

Speaking personally, I applied the same internal moral and ethical tests to the PCC elections fiasco as I would have done towards voting to elect a National Executioner after a, (hypothetical), British government had decided to re-instate capital punishment without first polling the electorate to ascertain if it wanted the death penalty to return....

....and having already been denied the chance to vote on whether capital punishment should return or not, (and already having a settled opinion that I would have voted against reinstating capital punishment), I found myself being urged to elect an executioner anyway for a variety of reasons I couldn't ethically or morally support.

There are occasions when the only morally correct course of action for an individual to take is not to vote.

 


Offline Alex

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #122 on: November 16, 2012, 03:46:13 PM »
Just been having a debate about this-

 ?"Newport councillor Kevin Whitehead, Independent member for the city's Bettws ward, said it was "staggering" that a polling station had failed to register a single vote. "It's just apathy. I think apathy rules when it comes to politics in general," he said."

That's just apathy? What an incredibly stupid man!  This wasn't voter apathy this was voter disillusionment.

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #123 on: November 16, 2012, 03:54:38 PM »
I told you so!  That they would blame apathy and never even consider that it might be that we didn't want to vote for what was on offer - I told you so....

And I said - think like they think. Think like an incredibly stupid man would look at your actions.

You lot are not incredibly stupid. Just watch the news tonight when a lot more incredibly people, blinded by political allegiences will also tell you it's down to apathy.

List them here tomorrow.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline the gorgon

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #124 on: November 16, 2012, 05:30:05 PM »
Good grief, I've just heard an interview with Teresa May on Radio 4  :censored:

I'm used to hearing guff from politicians but that interview will take some beating.  Total and utter denial that there is any sort of problem, useless  :censored:

 :argh:

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #125 on: November 16, 2012, 05:47:39 PM »
I've just heard the ex-chief constable of Gloucestershire, (Tim Brain), talking about the pcc election fiasco.  Sensible and sincere he appears to disagree with Theresa May et al.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #126 on: November 16, 2012, 06:08:55 PM »
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I told you so!  That they would blame apathy and never even consider that it might be that we didn't want to vote for what was on offer - I told you so....

And I said - think like they think. Think like an incredibly stupid man would look at your actions.

You lot are not incredibly stupid. Just watch the news tonight when a lot more incredibly people, blinded by political allegiences will also tell you it's down to apathy.

List them here tomorrow.

Muggins - thats one comment by a less than sparklingly clever mere councillor in Wales. Switch over from 105FM to any mass media channel and you'll see/hear that NO ONE else is putting this down to apathy - not even the politards. They're trying to claim it was to do with 'confusion' or the newness of the option. Journalists have on the other hand interviewed dozens and dozens or people who are stating that they either didn't vote because they had no info on the candidates - or that they didn't vote because they fundamentally disagreed with the entire concept.

Apathy isn't a word being used. Quite the contrary, in fact.
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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #127 on: November 16, 2012, 06:13:05 PM »
I heard on the Today programme on Radio 4 this morning (during a discussion with a polling expert) that there were around 2,800 (I think) spoilt papers (3% of the total I think) in the Wiltshire vote.  Some of them would be due to people not being familiar with the voting system but the rest were deliberate.

Yes 3 deliberate from my household.

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #128 on: November 16, 2012, 06:21:08 PM »
Hope you caught the interviews on the main BBC news in Swindon!  No further comment.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #129 on: November 16, 2012, 07:13:59 PM »
I spoilt my paper twice.
Does that mean it won't be counted  :crazy2:

I was on a power trip
Proud to be gone

Offline Mart

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #130 on: November 16, 2012, 07:34:50 PM »
The ballot papers were spoiled the minute that bunch of politically affiliated bitches were printed on them.

Look at it another way, 85% of voters voted, just not in the normal manner.

Aggressive apathy, perhaps there is another way ...... Determinedly not giving a shit.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline James

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #131 on: November 16, 2012, 08:31:36 PM »
I went to the polling station, as I always have.
I do not always vote, but I always go.
I stood in the booth and made the marks I felt appropriate.

But I have never felt more miserable voting.
Anything I could do would be willfully misinterpreted by the political classes.

I'd read the candidates pitches, I'd listened on the radio, I'd engaged with the process.

But I state:
Even the appallingly low turnout will have hidden many many people who do not agree with this, but always vote.
I voted and I disagree with the whole damn thing.

J.

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #132 on: November 17, 2012, 12:50:11 AM »
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There are occasions when the only morally correct course of action for an individual to take is not to vote

That's a view but not neccessarily shared by everyone.

Sometimes you have to make a decision based on what is going to happen, it was a certainty that the election for PCCs was going ahead and therefore it is right and proper to consider the candidates who have put themsleves forward.  Remember the vote wasn't a referndum on whether the voters wanted a PCC just who did you want as the PCC given that come Friday someone would be.

I agree that in a perfect world the question as to whether the people wanted PCCs would be asked first; but we are in an imperfect world.

Quote
I propose that anyone holding opinions similar to Des' - but who voted anyway - simply rubber-stamped a process which they say they didn't agree with, but then 'agreed with it' anyway by voting for a candidate for a post with which they didn't agree with

I am sorry you think this.  I am happy to repeat that i would have preferred a PA with teeth - my view had no credence beacuse it wasn't on offer and as such i couldn't vote for it. Therefore i was left with two choices, don't vote on the basis that I didn't want a PCC - or vote on the basis that in the morning someone would be PCC and as a rationally thinking individual I should surely be able to think beyond my personal view as to the desirability of the role and choose form amongst 6 people who i would prefer to be the PCC.

If I hadn't voted and a candidate with whom I could find nothing to commend them had been elected I would have been well and truly peeved. But it would have been my own fault. Principle is a mighty hard taskmaster sometimes so always best to examine what the principle is and is it worth 'dying in a ditch for' If it is, I salute you for holding firm

Offline Mickraker

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #133 on: November 17, 2012, 07:03:59 AM »
Reading the posts it is clear that this did not arrest the attention of many people. For some it is a criminal waste of money and for others more of  a forensic examination of the motive behind it. Now that the election has taken place no doubt for some PCC incumbants they will plod along whilst others will want to deliver on their copper bottomed guarantee.

Only a handful of the electorate appeared willing to accompany their candidate to the station (polling) and it sounds as if some would have had to have been dragged there handcuffed to vote. Some appeared to have been kettled by the thin blue line of democracy whilst others would not even be truncheoned into participation.

I 'II warrant that though many people did not vote they will give evidence and swear witness to PCC incumbents about their effectiveness in this new  role.

My question is will the new PCC have their own parking space and exactly where will it be in the parking space hierarchy at Police HQ  :-\

Did the PCC elections deliver the diversity to the police that it has been seeking for several years :-\

Which party won the popular vote  :-\

Which party has the most PCC posts  :-\

How independent are some of the independent PCC incumbents  :-\

My non aggresive posts are my own opinion and represent me, myself and I only!

Offline jennyb

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #134 on: November 17, 2012, 07:25:43 AM »
I believe that a vote is a precious thing but try as I might , I could not bring myself to cast a vote for this.

I was underwhelmed by every candidate and the 'winner' did not change my view when I heard him speak after the event.

A poor process, poorly executed and put forward for a reason which is completely beyond me.

I hope the reality is not a disaster.
It takes wisdom to know what you know and wisdom to know what you don't know and when to call in those who do. Often the people who do know will advise that evidence and research are very helpful when making decisions. Who knows it might even save a bit of money.

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #135 on: November 17, 2012, 08:18:20 AM »
Des: That's a view but not neccessarily shared by everyone.

Maybe not, but 85% of voters did!

I think that this may lead to something even more creepy - can't find the right word for it?. 

For many years now various governments have been doing things to 'engage', the bottom line of which was/is to get the voting rate up, more people going out to vote. I think this latest thing and the surrounding publicity might well have undone any good that had come from those initiatives. People being what they are, they migth see this as a really good excuse not to do something they don;t really want to bother to do anyway, because doing it makes no difference.

Unless there is a mega change in the oppostion, combined with some awful thing political scandal
between now and the next election that matters, we could be in real danger of having either really low turn outs or a change to the stranger  parties. well, it will amount to the same thing.

And let's face it, what is the potential left for any more political scandals??

I'm still wondering of the last turn to Labour government wasn't more about their promised to ban hunting - a simple subject which everyone can understand, rather than about the deep and meaningful policies.  In other words, most people want it kept simple and about things they understand on a day to day basis.




Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #136 on: November 17, 2012, 08:52:59 AM »
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Maybe not, but 85% of voters did!

What - exercised their decision 'not to vote' based on moral grounds. As much as I would like to agree that a moral stance did play such a significant role in the low turnout, I simply can't.

I think in truth you would agree

Offline Muggins

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #137 on: November 17, 2012, 09:09:22 AM »
Maybe not all  on moral grounds, but most of those I know and met in the run up to this election, and surprisingly it came up as a subject of conversation everywhere, (when in the run up to a local or general election mention of an election is usually met with a groan or a yawn) that people HAD thought about it, and gave their reasoning for not turning up.

So they had thought about, discussed it with others and made a choice not to turn up. And like I said that was not just in Penhill, or just local people and volunteers, but across the spectrum.  I can honestly say, that apathy had very little to do with it.

Despite that word (apathy) creeping in at the end of every list of reasons why to turn out was so low. Just like I said it would.

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline the gorgon

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #138 on: November 17, 2012, 10:14:25 AM »
If it was just apathy I'd expect to see an average turnout of 20-25% not 15%.  I suspect it can also be seen in how Labour have done. Conservative supports were more likely to support the policy so turned out and voted hence they got 16 commissioners, Labour supporters were more likely to oppose so didn't vote (or spoilt ballots) hence they got 13 commissioners. 

Labour did get around 200,000 more votes nationally but that can be explained by Labour controlled police forces often being in more heavily populated areas (for example Tory Wiltshire had 15% 78,000 turnout, but Labour Manchester had 13% 272,000 turnout)

The best result though is that 12 independent commissioners were elected.

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Politicisation of the Police Commissioner vote -- discuss
« Reply #139 on: November 17, 2012, 02:58:25 PM »
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Maybe not, but 85% of voters did!

What - exercised their decision 'not to vote' based on moral grounds. As much as I would like to agree that a moral stance did play such a significant role in the low turnout, I simply can't.

I think in truth you would agree

Morals, principles, ethics, (take your pick), all played a major part in my decision not to vote.

We can discuss and speculate at length on the reasons for the rest of the 85% of the eligible electorate not voting, but the incontestable fact is they also did not vote.

What remains abundantly clear is that a very small minority of voters chose to legitimise the PCC elections by expressing a preference of candidates.

A significant number of that small minority also state that they did not agree with the creation of PCC's but voted for a PCC candidate anyway. 

I doubt that I need to point out the attendant irony.  :)