Author Topic: Save Lower Shaw Farm  (Read 31742 times)

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Offline AndyP

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #20 on: October 29, 2006, 08:01:09 PM »

Hi folks,

There are a number of reactions to the news on the Swindon Link web site, www.swindonlink.co.uk - I thought it was worth posting this one from Anne Snelgrove:

Quote
From Anne Snelgrove, MP for South Swindon

Swindon Borough Council is a disgrace over the proposal to sell off Lower Shaw Farm for development.

I was at Lower Shaw farm recently. It's terrific community facility, where families can have fun and spend time together in a beautiful setting. It teaches children about the environment and enhances the quality of life for all who go there, especially the residents of West Swindon, who are fortunate to have this on their doorstep.

The council now admit that they messed up over West Swindon Schools, when they refused to listen to local parents and now they want to make residents pay for their mistake. It's a disgrace and absolutely outrageous behaviour. What makes it worse is that the Tories have been banging on about the environment and quality of life - clearly it doesn't mean a lot to them when they need money to sort out their mistakes.

The future of the Link Centre is uncertain, the Oasis will soon be closed and the Tories want to close Lower Shaw Farm - they are selling off the family silver in West Swindon to pay for their own incompetence.


Cheers,

Andy

Offline ZPW

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #21 on: October 29, 2006, 08:52:01 PM »

Well., thanks for that Andy.
Have to give it to the pink pashmina. She's got it on the nose.

Anne for MP !!

Oh...

Offline James

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #22 on: October 29, 2006, 11:15:47 PM »

I'd like to say I'm shocked, but I really can't say I am.
This is one of Swindons treasures.
I've only been there once, but I think it is a wonderful place - my daughter met ducklings there.

If we lose this do we lose Matt and the Literature Festival too I wonder?

James




Offline Tobes

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #23 on: October 30, 2006, 07:31:56 AM »

Wow -  :o quite an acheivement by the conservative SBC councillors - they've actually suggested something so short-sighted and unpopular that they've managed to unite this forum in praise of Autocratic Annie. That should indicate something!
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Offline ZPW

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #24 on: October 30, 2006, 09:06:25 AM »

Wow -  :o quite an acheivement by the conservative SBC councillors - they've actually suggested something so short-sighted and unpopular that they've managed to unite this forum in praise of Autocratic Annie. That should indicate something!


Well there you go...

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Tory principals ( me first - you lot later ) will always out.


Offline Lynda

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #25 on: October 30, 2006, 09:12:18 PM »

91 percent of polled want LSF to stay open

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/swindonnewsheadlines/display.var.993077.0.farm_given_a_massive_vote_of_support.php

Quote
SWINDON residents do not want Lower Shaw Farm sold off to developers.

In an Adver poll which saw hundreds of people vote, 91 per cent of readers told us they think the farm should be left alone while just nine per cent thought it was a good idea for Swindon Council to close it down



No real surpirise there then.


Offline ZPW

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #26 on: October 31, 2006, 09:10:10 PM »

Has everyine written to Mr Bluhhhhh yet?

Marina Lewycka has...

Quote
THE author of one of this summer's best-selling books has written to Swindon Council asking them to reconsider the decision to close Lower Shaw Farm.

Marina Lewycka, author of A Short History of Tractors in Ukrainian, was one of the big hits at this year's Swindon Festival of Literature, and said she was appalled to learn that the council was threatening to turn the farm into a building site.

"As someone who has enjoyed the hospitality of this remarkable international cultural centre, I wonder whether you realise just what you are doing," she said in a letter to council leader Roderick Bluh.

"The unique atmosphere of Lower Shaw Farm cannot be replicated anywhere, and puts Swindon on the cultural map in a way which no amount of residential property can.
continued...

"While I appreciate that when budgets are tight, savings need to be made, I think you would soon come to regret having thrown away this opportunity to showcase Swindon as a progressive and interesting place attracting artists and writers.

"I hope you will reconsider this short-sighted decision."




http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/swindonnewsheadlines/display.var.994830.0.dont_crush_this_oasis_of_ideas.php

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #27 on: October 31, 2006, 09:35:49 PM »

'A short history of tractors in Ukrainian' is a bloody marvellous book. Also abridged for Radio4 last year.

As you were..... :)

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Offline Jean

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #28 on: November 02, 2006, 01:15:49 PM »

There's a good supportive article in yesterday's Adver by Shirley Matthias

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/columnists/shirleymathias/display.var.996680.0.what_price_on_farm_education.php

and the Barrie Hudson piece on 28th October is hilarious [not available on line].

Letters of support continue to flood in to the paper.  A nice one today from Rupert Burr

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/swindonletters/display.var.999836.0.urban_farms_so_vital_today.php

and another today:

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/swindonletters/display.var.999881.0.we_must_not_lose_this_gem.php
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Offline sasquatch

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #29 on: November 03, 2006, 11:12:03 AM »

Aren't people looking at the his the wrong way ?

As far as I am aware the decision by SBC isn't to close anything - it is a commercial decision not to renew a lease ! The "farm" is a private business  that I believe has been enjoying a really low rent for years.

I'd say the decision not to renew is the right one - why should my council tax pay for this facility - that a private business profits from - if they let everone from swindon in for free then perhaps that would be different - but they don't!

How about lower shaw farm posting copies of the last 10 years of their accounts for public scrutiny on this site so we can see how their money is spent - do they still charge £90 a night for basket weaving ?

There is nothing that is done at this site which couldn't be done elsewhere in swindon - perhaps even by the same people who run this place.

They are a business - every business that leases its premises has to be realistic that at some stage the landlord may not wish to renew - the same happens as a private tenant - didn't they have a contigency plan ?

Why don't they buy the site from the council at market rate ? It is obviously such a successful business I have no doubt they could easily borrow the money from a bank - with all their thousands of happy customers. Borrowing money is really easy - you put a business plan together approach a bank - and if everything is fine - you get the money - that is what businesses do every day - why should this lot be any different ?

why don't they ask 2000 of their customers (of whiich there must be that many from swindon alone !) to put up £1250 each to buy their own piece of paradise ! ? - obviously as an investment it would be a really bad one because the business that occupies the site doesn't want to pay a market rent for the property - but hey - I guess they could write off the investment against tax !

I get fed up with all these organisations that think just because they do something they perceive to be a little bit different or vaguely green or protective or whatever - that I should pay for them through my council tax !

Well I don't want to pay - I have had enough of paying - all these years - rises of almost 50% in three years under the labour administration - this lot have done a damned sight better - and if they think it isn't a clever idea to have assets being abused by sodding hippies then good on them !

I look forward one day when the tories have sorted out this council that perhaps my council tax could go down rather than up ! and it will be because they are making sensible decsions not to subsidise private businesses !

what next - do we let B&Q rent their site at barnfield for £50k per year or let them buy it for £14 million - as the americans are known to say "do the Math"

I say wake up and look at the real picture, or carry on and try to persuade all the tax paying residents of swindon that subsidising private businesses is a really good idea  and that no one cares about people on fixed incomes having to pay higher council tax because of misguided nonsense such as this.

Sometime I really do wonder about vocal minorities !
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Offline James

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #30 on: November 03, 2006, 01:55:04 PM »

Interesting to hear another side to this story.
However, I would say that you appear to be the vocal (and eloquent) minority on this one.

James

PS
My mum also asked me to mention her disappointment and shock with the council decision on this forum.

Offline ZPW

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #31 on: November 03, 2006, 01:58:02 PM »



PS
My mum also asked me to mention her disappointment and shock with the council decision on this forum.



Hurrah ! Hurrah ! for James' mum.
James' mum for queen !

Oh, sorry. Karen Leakey is already in line for that job.


Offline ZPW

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #32 on: November 03, 2006, 02:43:32 PM »

Aren't people looking at the his the wrong way ?


No.

Quote
As far as I am aware the decision by SBC isn't to close anything - it is a commercial decision not to renew a lease ! The "farm" is a private business  that I believe has been enjoying a really low rent for years.


?Que?

If the lease` isn't renewed then the "farm" closes.
The result of  EssBeeSee not renewing the lease is the closure of the "farm"

( Why are we "ing the word farm?)

Quote

I'd say the decision not to renew is the right one - why should my council tax pay for this facility - that a private business profits from - if they let everone from swindon in for free then perhaps that would be different - but they don't!


Same reason you pay poll tax for the climbing wall at the link centre; do you climb? No? Let's close that then.


Quote
How about lower shaw farm posting copies of the last 10 years of their accounts for public scrutiny on this site so we can see how their money is spent - do they still charge £90 a night for basket weaving ?


How about you posting your accounts on this forum?
What is your point?

Are you suggesting snowman that LSF are charging too much? Last time I made a bicycyle basket at the Blackthorn centre it cost about the same.

Quote

There is nothing that is done at this site which couldn't be done elsewhere in swindon - perhaps even by the same people who run this place.


I think you've not been there.

Quote
Why don't they buy the site from the council at market rate ? It is obviously such a successful business I have no doubt they could easily borrow the money from a bank - with all their thousands of happy customers. Borrowing money is really easy - you put a business plan together approach a bank - and if everything is fine - you get the money - that is what businesses do every day - why should this lot be any different ?


Because LSF is fairly unusual

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I get fed up with all these organisations that think just because they do something they perceive to be a little bit different or vaguely green or protective or whatever - that I should pay for them through my council tax !


All these organisations?
All of them? Which ones?
This thread` is about LSF.

You pay for a lot of things you may not "use" via your poll tax.
You pay for wheelie bins in West Swindon, you pay for children to learn to swim at terribly expensive pools, you pay for libraries even if you can't read or are too rich to "borrow" them.
This is about the good of Swindon residents that may not actually be "you"

Quote
Well I don't want to pay - I have had enough of paying - all these years -


Build yourself an island then

 
Quote
I look forward one day when the tories have sorted out this council that perhaps my council tax could go down rather than up ! and it will be because they are making sensible decsions not to subsidise private businesses !


I look forward`to the day when the govt. stops giving grant grubbing farmers money for living on country estates.

Quote
what next - do we let B&Q rent their site at barnfield for £50k per year or let them buy it for £14 million - as the americans are known to say "do the Math"


Is that it?
Are we reduced to what pays a financial return?

Let it never be so.



Quote
Sometime I really do wonder about vocal minorities !


We're here to keep life's cauldron bubbling away.

Offline sasquatch

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #33 on: November 03, 2006, 03:48:47 PM »

Is a landlord who decides not to continue renting out a house responsible for the tenants future ? No !

is a landlord who increases the annual lease cost to match market rates responsible for the tenant whose business doesn't want to or can't pay the increased rent ? No.

That is the market and like it or not councils are responsible for getting best value from their assets - in fact I hope most people would insist that their council operates a sensible asset management system. I wouldn't be surprised if over the next few years we see more anomalies such as this creep out of the system as leases come up for renewal - a legacy of poor management in the past !

It is one thing my council tax being used to fund council owned leisure facilities such as swimming pools and climbing walls but a completely different matter using my council tax to pay for a private business ! - I trust you note the distinction !

Just because lower shaw farm is unusual does not mean that as a business it can't borrow money from the open market like every other private business or indeed every other private farm - whether they get subsidies from the government or not (that is an issue perhaps you should raise with Annie Snelgrove ?)

And finally - yes things do boil down to money - mine and every other council tax payer in Swindon - if you are on a fixed income like many pensioners - how happy would you be if the council subsidised private businesses and because of that had to increase the council tax whilst your pension stays the same ! Think about it huh ? Most pensioners can't afford to spend £90 or however much to weave a basket for their bicycle - they don't even get that for a week as a pensioner !

I feel like standing with my fingers in my ears shouting "this is a private business !!!" over and over again - it is not right that my council tax subsidises this.

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Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #34 on: November 03, 2006, 05:11:39 PM »

Ah!, but there's the rub  :)

This is one instance where an area-wide referendum might throw up a surprisng result for the bean-counters who distill the Lower Shaw Farm question down to the raw black and red entries on a spreadsheet.

Would Nick Martin change his view if a majority of Swindon council tax payers said: "Keep the farm.... good luck to Matt Holland and his business !".

Perhaps people wish to protect and keep Lower Shaw Farm as, and where it is, despite the 'it's costing us money' argument, precisely because many don't mind paying that little bit extra, for something they just want to keep.

I suspect most people would happily keep paying a little extra each year than see the farm bulldozed, levelled and a few extra houses built on it.

Will the activities Matt provides be available elsewhere ?, I don't care really. That's like saying: "Why shop in Marks and Sparks when there's a Lidl's just around the corner ". I prefer quality of experience, and I'll pay a premium for it.

If we all followed strictly rational financial logic we'd all be without many of the luxuries and fun things in life.

And the Monarchy would be gone with them.......

 
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Offline Simon

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #35 on: November 03, 2006, 05:48:10 PM »

I think saquatch's ire is somewhat misdirected.

According to this letter in today's Adver, Lower Shaw Farm is subsidised to the tune of £92,000 per year. Compare that with the £930 million subsidy which the arms trade gets from the taxpayer each year. That's enough for over 10 thousand Lower Shaw Farms!

Subsidise a business which lets people make baskets and learn how farms work? Or subsidise a business which makes things specifically to kill and maim people?

I know which I'd rather see my taxes spent on.

We are all in this together, but some of us are more in it than others (with apologies to George Orwell)

Offline sasquatch

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #36 on: November 03, 2006, 06:37:24 PM »

Simon,

Couldn't agree with you more about the arms trade subsidies - export credit guarantee dept. etc etc. - but that is national government - not local  -  I think you'll find the government has considerable latitude as to what it can get away with screwing us for - councils cannot !

This situation may have set a nasty precedent for any other business leasing council property as I believe they would be entitled to ask for a rent tribunal to consider their lease in the light of this one. The letter in the adver I think actually underestimated the cost to the council tax payers of Swindon - commercial yields have been between 5% and 8% for the past decade - if the property is worth £2.5 million the rent produced from a commercial lease should have been between £125,000 and £200,000 p.a. - over 10 years  - quite a lot of money.

I think you might find that the "deal" struck with LSF might raise a few more eyebrows - I wonder what the council external auditors might have to say about the lease arrangements ? I wonder who was responsible for it being authorised in the first place ?

Aren't these the questions we should be asking ?
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Offline ZPW

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #37 on: November 03, 2006, 09:40:39 PM »

Simon,



I think you might find that the "deal" struck with LSF might raise a few more eyebrows - I wonder what the council external auditors might have to say about the lease arrangements ? I wonder who was responsible for it being authorised in the first place ?

Aren't these the questions we should be asking ?


Nooooo.
A deal is a deal.
At least where I grew up a deal was a deal, maybe in the Federal republic of Swindon this is not the case, but where I grew up it is.

I think you're missing some things Sasquatch, I don't want to be adverserial, I'd rather we took some heat out of this.
I'll drop the basket weaving if you'll drop the private business bit ( I'll throw in the ducks, but the story telling has to stay... and the juggling)

This is Matt and Andrea's home.
They have a home at LSF, just like you have a home in.. Abbey Mees?
They open their home to an awful lot of people.

They have a business, this a a seperate issue.

The have a home, they are the most generous open hearted people. I am certain they will be really discomforted vy the anger flying around over them.

They incidentally have put Swindon on the literary map through tireless devotion to our ( your ?) literary festival.
they ask for nothing much as far as I can tell but an honoured agreement.

Whether this agreement was struck by an elected group that you don't support is fairly irrelevant.
I didn't vote for the Tories, but I live with the fact that the Hydro doesn't allow disorganised swimmers.
That's democracy for you.


Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #38 on: November 04, 2006, 08:57:48 AM »

Aren't people looking at the his the wrong way ?


I think people are being 'encouraged' to look at this from a patently unfair, pro-development, view.


As far as I am aware the decision by SBC isn't to close anything - it is a commercial decision not to renew a lease ! The "farm" is a private business  that I believe has been enjoying a really low rent for years.


And what is the problem with that ?. The farm, and it is a farm, was the subject of a compulsory purchase order nearly 30 years ago, but for whatever reason it escaped the fate of other dairy farms purchased in the same manner.

Am I missing something here, but isn't it true that Matt Holland has been leasing AGRICULTURAL LAND AND BUILDINGS from sbc all this time ? and that the figure of £2.5million is entirely disengenuous ?

Matt isn't leasing a high value piece of land, he's leasing a farm, and agricultural rents are nothing like as high as we're being led to believe.


Why don't they buy the site from the council at market rate ? It is obviously such a successful business I have no doubt they could easily borrow the money from a bank - with all their thousands of happy customers. Borrowing money is really easy - you put a business plan together approach a bank - and if everything is fine - you get the money - that is what businesses do every day - why should this lot be any different ?


That's a really good idea  O0, a couple of hectares of agricultural land shouldn't be too expensive, and I'm up for buying into it.


This situation may have set a nasty precedent for any other business leasing council property as I believe they would be entitled to ask for a rent tribunal to consider their lease in the light of this one.


How so ?, how many farms does sbc still own and rent out ?, does sbc have many tenants leasing agricultural land from them ?.


The letter in the adver I think actually underestimated the cost to the council tax payers of Swindon - commercial yields have been between 5% and 8% for the past decade - if the property is worth £2.5 million the rent produced from a commercial lease should have been between £125,000 and £200,000 p.a. - over 10 years  - quite a lot of money.


There's the 'if' again. Is the farm worth £2.5 million now, or will it become that valuable after the farm is demolished and sbc has formerly applied for planning permission?.

Maybe I'm barking up the wrong tree entirely, so can someone confirm whether the farm is actually still a farm, or does it already have planning permission for houses ?

Aren't these the questions we should be asking ?

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Offline Tobes

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Re: Save Lower Shaw Farm
« Reply #39 on: November 04, 2006, 10:56:38 AM »

Sorry sasquatch - I think your response is morally wrong - and your supposed justification logically speaking, highly selective. We, as ZPW has pointed out,  subsidise all sorts of things through our council tax which we may not personally use or encounter. I have never been to Shaw Farm - but the fact that its somewhere which offers exactly the sort of cultural pursuits which do something to extend and expand the very narrow mindset of the bhurgers of our concrete town seems like an utterly good thing.

It looks to me as though certain parties are motivated by some very short term concerns - not to mention a highly PERSONAL assessment of what should/shouldn't be subsidised by tax money. Well, councillors aren't elected for their personal views - they're SUPPOSED to make balanced judgements on whats best for their electorate and the community. The strength and consistency of the public condemnation of yet another decision which places building development and very short term (and small scale) financial considerations above cultural and aesthetic concerns tells us all we need to know about the values and priorities of some of our councillors.

Its also really disingenuous to try and claim that

Quote
This situation may have set a nasty precedent for any other business leasing council property as I believe they would be entitled to ask for a rent tribunal to consider their lease in the light of this one.


Shaw farm, in terms of its value to the community, is much much more than just a 'business' isn't it? Or would you extend the same hard nosed rationale to things like community centres, schools etc. who've been receiving favourable terms?
« Last Edit: November 04, 2006, 11:01:58 AM by Tobes »
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