Author Topic: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?  (Read 10974 times)

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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #20 on: June 05, 2012, 06:58:43 PM »
Yes PH thats why I bought them, cos it s better return than the bank, but you have to either buy them yourselves or the firm puts them up, you get the free elecy, and they keep the feedin tarifs.. now if the gov were to give a big hand with the initial costs, that would be another matter.  :wink:

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #21 on: June 06, 2012, 07:57:01 AM »
Quote
The forces contained in our ever changing weather are massive.

The issue is in the words 'ever changing' - the country wants a ready supply of energy which is not subject to weather variation. Thus we have managed supply from 'power stations' either coal fired, gas fired or nuclear powered. The fuel they use to provide energy is capable of being stored whereas (apart from huge batteries, which themelves are far from 'green') there is no storage available for wind or indeed the electricty generated by wind. A power station produces 'energy - electricity' on demand whenever the demand occurs. A spike in demand requires an immediate response.

The truth is that all energy production is subsidised - it's only a question of 'by how much' that differentiates the different methods of production.

What we do know is that all forms of fuel to power our energy needs have drawbacks associated with their production and storage. Just imagine if the 'green lobby' had been about in the time of the Industrial Revolution - would they have allowed coal mining - let's forget the issues of Health and Safety, they would have opposed the extraction on the basis of 'undergound explosions and the seismic issues associated with such action' - just as 'fracking' is under the spotlight today. The environmentalists would have a field day, with claims of spoiling heritage sights and heaven help us, allowing  millions of tonnes of Co2 into the air. They would not neccesarily be wrong in their view but imagine where we would be as a nation if the Industrial Revolution had not occurred

Progression socially does cost and some would say at too high a price, others would not wish to go back to washing clothes in a stream or using a broom to clean the carpets. Social and economic rogress is a multi coloured canvas and the various shades of which it consists must of necessity appeal to some and not to others? Sadly we have opened a Pandoras Box and released the contents - putting the things back is impossible simply because the contents are spread worldwide.

Who can deny China or India their Industrial Revolution - the West has had theirs and despoiled the world (if you believe the Guardianistas) China and India will emit more Co2 than Britain ever has as opposed to ever will and there is nothing we can do to alter that.

Maybe I am being too simplistic (certainly not smug) but i honestly believe that nature has a way of taking care of what matters and resolving issues which to us seem unsurmountable.
« Last Edit: June 06, 2012, 08:55:23 AM by Des Morgan »

Offline Tobes

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #22 on: June 06, 2012, 08:26:04 AM »
Very wise words from Des in my opinion.

That in a nutshell is the problem with windpower and solar in the UK - the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine - and certainly doesn't match peak demand for consumers.

Nuclear is THE ONLY option based on current consumption - even if you filled 10% of the country with wind farms and covered every household roof with solar panels. The irony that its the most carbon neutral option ought not to be lost either.

If people want to get the grips with the arguments properly, they really need to understand that basic science behind energy production. I don;t have any glib solutions, the choices are going to be very difficult, but I can't help thinking that the green lobby is trying to both have their cake and eat it. Energy in the form of electricity defines our modern society. It powers the machines in hospitals, it powers the pc on which I'm typing, the tv in the background, the kettle etc etc etc. Unless people are prepared to make cups of tea and turn on lightbulbs according to the vagaries of the weather, some form of nuclear is going to be a certainty.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Rob

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #23 on: June 06, 2012, 03:10:36 PM »
A problem cannot be solved from the same mentality it was created.
Look outside the 96% controlled media for solutions, that's where the problem was created.

How much time have you invested in researching the 'alternative' options. What makes them 'alternative'? The controlled media.

Is it acceptablubble for private individuals to power their own houses? By us it is ... just not our chosen 'controllers'.

There is corruption at the top of the 'green' party, just as any other large 'body'.

Find a clearing in the woods of corruption, then the trees can be seen.

Or maybe I'm insane, deluded or gullible? The technology exists whether or not my heart is in the right place.

The catch 22 is easier to see when you look at the warmongering BBC's bias, if you choose to. Look at the propaganda machine indetail and you'll see it's more illusionary than you could 'believe'.

Last time I checked, there's an over unity device that will power your house silently and small enough to fit in a glove box. The price should come down but I think a price mentioned was 5k, but even then, it would mean you could move into a cabin in the woods without missing an episode of american gladiators.

'Magnets, magnets, ... Always with the magnets' - Old woman's favourite comment from Futurama.

http://www.free-energy-info.co.uk/Chapter1.pdf
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Offline Mart

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #24 on: June 06, 2012, 08:52:55 PM »
Last time I checked, there's an over unity device that will power your house silently and small enough to fit in a glove box.

Yup, it's called a nuclear reactor.

Simple fact is that the Green Movement has it's heart in the right place but it's idealism needs lacing with pragmatism. That is to allow the printing presses, lap tops and servers it requires to spread it's entirely commendable message to keep functioning.

Simple and present fact is that for us to have our gizmos blokes will need to grubby things in grubby ways to keep those winky lights blinking away.

Even if we revert to cave dwelling we'd be forbidden to light fires, best not think about keeping cattle either cos their farts destroy the ozone layer, if you even consider planting arable crops you'd best think again because you'll be displacing native plants.

I've got no glib answers either but there is an answer, some bloke in a shed is working on it right now.

Buy more sheds, that's the answer.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #25 on: June 06, 2012, 09:08:27 PM »
Maybe I am being too simplistic (certainly not smug) but i honestly believe that nature has a way of taking care of what matters and resolving issues which to us seem unsurmountable.


I could ramble on about Gaia theory but instead I thought I'd share a cartoon.



Nuclear is THE ONLY option based on current consumption - even if you filled 10% of the country with wind farms and covered every household roof with solar panels. The irony that its the most carbon neutral option ought not to be lost either.


Carbon neutral it is not. Granted that according to what I have understood, it results in less greenhouse gas than coal, oil or gas, but that uranium still needs to be dug out of the ground, transported around, refined from ore to metal, enriched to the point where it will fission, buried in really deep holes in the ground once it's been fissioned, and looked after for how many thousands of years to make sure it's not going to make an unwelcome appearance in our food chain. And someone needs to build a reactor building where the fission can safely happen, and then decommision it 20 years later. All of that needs energy, and we're in no position to supply all of that from nuclear power (I have yet to see a nuclear powered lorry).

the wind doesn't always blow and the sun doesn't always shine - and certainly doesn't match peak demand for consumers.


Agreed, and it was erroneous of me to mention only wind and solar in my post. There is much more which belongs in the energy "mix" which politicians are so keen on citing when they defend nuclear. Please take a look at the Zero Carbon Britain 2030 report. The authors of that report have studied this subject in far more detail than I could ever manage. Please do take a look at it, even if you only read the executive summary (30ish pages) rather than the whole report (350ish pages). My executive summary of the executive summary is that it's a blueprint for how the UK can reduce our greenhouse gas emissions to next to nothing over the next 20 years (oops, 18 years, it was published 2 years ago) without significantly impacting our standard of living.

Who can deny China or India their Industrial Revolution - the West has had theirs and despoiled the world (if you believe the Guardianistas) China and India will emit more Co2 than Britain ever has as opposed to ever will and there is nothing we can do to alter that.


China and India have much larger populations than the UK, so of course their consumption will be larger than ours. If you look at per capita emissions, I think you'll find that they are much more frugal than us.

Of course I don't want to deny the people of those countries the benefits we got from the industrial revolution. But I'd like them to benefit from what we've learned over the last couple of centuries, learn from our mistakes, and conduct an industrial revolution which enriches their people without adverse effects on the biosphere in which we all live.

Our ancestors who took part in the industrial revolution got it all wrong. I don't blame them for that because they didn't understand the consequences of what they were doing. But we do.

Who is going to teach who here? Do we sort out own act out and then show the developing world how to have a sustainable industrial revolution? Or do we wait for one of the BRIC countries to work it out for themselves and then teach us?

Last time I checked, there's an over unity device that will power your house silently and small enough to fit in a glove box.

Yup, it's called a nuclear reactor.


You've got a nuclear reactor which fits in your glove box?????
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #26 on: June 06, 2012, 10:29:15 PM »
Quote
China and India have much larger populations than the UK, so of course their consumption will be larger than ours. If you look at per capita emissions, I think you'll find that they are much more frugal than us.


Oh Simon you do disappoint me.  The 'per capita' argument is so ridiculous and discredited, I am amazed you have the cheek to use it. I know you to have a far more able intellect that that.

The 'per capita' argument is of no value as it is allegedly the actual amount of Co2 being pumped into the atmosphere which counts, the number of people making up the population of a country is immaterial to the alleged global effect of the emissions. Population like area is simply a convenient way to apportion the quantum of Co2 emissions and present a picture which doesn't 'look so bad' -it's classical Moroney - the author of 'How To Make Statistics Lie'

Using population is almost as dishonest as 'offsetting' which is really another way of saying "I can buy my self righteous feeling of smug complacency" or moving industrial output to China and India and then claiming that one has reduced their carbon emissions in the UK or Europe, therefore meeting their legal obligations, the reality of course is that one has only moved the emissions level from one geographical location to another one. In this case the new one has a higher population so that's alright then. I know you will understand the point I make and I hope you will forgive my irritation.

 

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #27 on: June 06, 2012, 10:50:16 PM »
Last time I checked, there's an over unity device that will power your house silently and small enough to fit in a glove box. The price should come down but I think a price mentioned was 5k

This is not as sci-fi as it sounds.
The disciples of Jeremy Clarkson are all too eager to dismiss alternative energy and have only negative thoughts of such things as electric cars etc.

If someone mentions electric car, do you think Toyota Prius or Formula1 Racing?

http://www.mechanicalengineeringblog.com/tag/kinetic-energy-recovery-system-how-it-works/

The technology is there.
It needs embracing in preference to the "temporary sticking plaster" that is nuclear power.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #28 on: June 07, 2012, 08:36:06 AM »
Its a simple fact that renewable energy is incompatible with the energy demands of modern society as we know it in the west - nor the desires and aspirations of those in the developing world. End of.

Quasi-mystic blethering about some fantastic cost-effective solution just around the corner is just that. Basic science says it doesn't. If it existed, a non oil producing state would have taken advantage of it years ago. Simple economics. That the financial aspects of most alternative energy is clouded (excuse the pun) by huge subsidies to try and make them viable makes the situation all the more obvious.

There is no silver bullet.

A reality check is long over-due.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #29 on: June 07, 2012, 12:47:51 PM »
Quasi-mystic blethering about some fantastic cost-effective solution just around the corner is just that....

Good job our forefathers didn't adopt that policy, otherwise we'd still be living in caves
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Offline the gorgon

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #30 on: June 07, 2012, 05:10:48 PM »
Quasi-mystic blethering about some fantastic cost-effective solution just around the corner is just that....

Good job our forefathers didn't adopt that policy, otherwise we'd still be living in caves

Except that most of these magical systems are always "suppressed by the man", odd that.

Also never mind that a lot of them seem to break the first and/or second laws of thermodynamics.

Take the bloke in Rob's link, IIRC the Chinese government suppressed his magic magnets idea.  Is this the same China that imports oil and gas from the former USSR and the middle east? The same China that is the worlds biggest source of the materials required to make the highest quality magnets?  The same China that would probably have a monopoly on this technology?



Offline Tobes

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #31 on: June 07, 2012, 06:43:17 PM »
Quote
Quasi-mystic blethering about some fantastic cost-effective solution just around the corner is just that....

Good job our forefathers didn't adopt that policy, otherwise we'd still be living in caves

The forefathers who chose to trust in mystical powers were the ones who ended up staying in caves
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Rob

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #32 on: June 07, 2012, 07:27:31 PM »
Nice to see ides floating about without anyone mentioning a lynching.

There's no way I can be bothered to be thorough today as I've sat here like a zombie for what seems like too long already, holding my head trying to shake off what feels like a killer hangover. Been up twice in the night with migraines and am not a happy bear.

I have to say that the link I posted was from a 1 minute or less google search, and by no means is a full education as to what's been going on in the free energy world.

Free Energy: The race to zero point scored well with me some years ago;

Free Energy - The Race To Zero Point
1:49:38  - 4 years ago
In this award-winning, feature length, two-hour broadcast-quality Documentary you will learn about the latest developments in the field of Free and Zero Point Energy from Tesla to Dennis Lee. Hosted by Bill Jenkins, formerly of ABC Radio, this comprehensive documentary features physicists and inventors who are challenging orthodox science to bring this non-polluting technology forward despite ridicule and suppression. See actual working prototypes that defy classical physics including phenomenal experiments in anti-gravity and the transmutation of metals.

Free Energy - The Race To Zero Point Small | Large


I would be grateful if some of you could find the time to taste what was occurring a while back.


I still think the major breakthroughs will come when the corruption is seen. We are indeed on a slippery slope if we continue to bow down and worship the gods of money. In a documentary on TV a week or so ago, they showed the WW2 from aerial photos. One battle claimed 20,000 lives per inch or foot ... We have only thrown a few sacrificial pawns at the gates of our true enemies, JFK wanted the gold standard back into money and greenbacks would have taken the power back from the banksters. Why can't we throw a few more men in that direction to see how thin their veils are now. Obama, like blair are pawns. They are already bought and sold and are really only death dealers in suits who humour us by pretending to listen to us. Nothing more. Why is there a political process again. Did anyone research a little into the vote rigging in the US a few years back. The veil was thinning out quite a lot. Those excuses for humans (if indeed they are) will happily go ahead and mutilate untold numbers of our fellow beings with any excuse they can come up with in our name. Now with genetically disrupting technology so you can literally fire and forget safe in the knowledge they'll kill thousands with every push of a button.

How freaking long (given than the sovereign nations attacked in our name know full and well of the effects) must they have to prey the world will wake up.

The ELITE blew it , REVEALED their plans to start WORLD WAR 3 Small | Large


This may help as a reality check. A little humour here helps.

Jew telling the truth about Iran and Israel Small | Large


Some balance there.

We worship false gods. Use the internet while it's still legal to see the 'other' version of events.

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=50175 ... Read more.
The headline above should read: time to consider the Western corporate media as a wing of the West’s military forces, because every major military campaign the West has been involved in recent years has been accompanied by a media campaign waged in the so-called free press.

It may have been completely discredited now, but for a while stories about Tony Blair’s “45 minute” claim were everywhere.

...

Who is the bad guy again?

Israeli attack on USS Liberty (US Navy ship) Small | Large

http://www.thetruthseeker.co.uk/?p=50162
“What I Saw That Day” is a story of America turning its back on its service-men. It is a story about Israelis slaughtering in cold blood American sailors on the high sea. But it is also a story about a man who battles with wounds and scars that have refused to heal for forty five years.  It is a book about the American serviceman being deceived and neglected by American political and military elite. “What I Saw That Day” is also a personal painful account of the tragic consequences of Israeli and Jewish lobby domination in America.

...

I trust you understand the articles the linked website gathers have links to their sources.

The media is constantly brainwashing us everyday. I've had enough. It's time we took our own hearts and minds back. And no, this does not mean you have to believe everything on the net, or faeries, or little green men, or reptilians. Those are different issues, probably.


Head feels a little lighter, going out for some air.
In the age of information, ignorance is a choice.

Offline James

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #33 on: June 07, 2012, 09:39:29 PM »
I’m not unhappy with the concept of extending nuclear to cover the short term political cock-up of the last 15 years dithering.
However something which takes geological lengths of time to dispose of * is no solution to running out of stuff which takes geological lengths of time to create.
We actually have little choice but to find ways to make renewables work, and find ways to store and deliver power efficiently.

The real answer is probably nuclear fusion, but it’s a bit tricky, and we keep p*ssing away spending our money on other things, like banks. I think the British are (pound for pound) the best creatives on the planet, so we should be punting billions at Fusion. That's the real prize.

James
 
* Last year saw a presentation on the early stages of decommissioning a nuclear power station, and the scale of work to be done was breath-taking. And that that was just for the low grade waste.

Offline Mart

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #34 on: June 07, 2012, 09:50:57 PM »
You've got a nuclear reactor which fits in your glove box

Yeah. If people will accept a 100,000 sq ft glove box then our energy problems are solved.

Would you like to invest?

http://www.rt.com/news/sci-tech/revolutionary-locomotive-russia-atomic/ :spin:

http://englishrussia.com/2009/03/17/russian-mobile-nuclear-power-plants/

This didn't make it.

Nucleon


The Nucleon, a 3/8-scale model, provided a glimpse into the atomic-powered future. Designed on the assumption that the present bulkiness and weight of nuclear reactors and attendant shielding would some day be reduced, the Nucleon was intended to probe possible design influence of atomic power in automobiles.


The model featured a power capsule suspended between twin booms at the rear. The capsule, which would contain a radioactive core for motive power, would be easily interchangeable at the driver's option, according to performance needs and the distance to be traveled.


The drive train would be part of the power package, and electronic torque converters might take the place of the drive-train used at the time. Cars like the Nucleon might be able to travel 5,000 miles or more, depending on the size of the core, without recharging. At that time, they would be taken to a charging station, which research designers envisioned as largely replacing gas stations.


The passenger compartment of the Nucleon featured a one-piece, pillar-less windshield and compound rear window, and was topped by a cantilever roof. There were air intakes at the leading edge of the roof and at the base of its supports.


Cars such as the Nucleon illustrate the extent to which research into the future was conducted at Ford, and demonstrate the designer's unwillingness to admit that a thing cannot be done simply because it has not been done
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Richard Beale

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #35 on: June 07, 2012, 10:44:42 PM »
Free energy devices will soon be widespread

No.

They won't.


Quite True. Not in this world.

p.s. We have had a natural free 'reactor' for many millenia, http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_nuclear_fission_reactor

Offline Alex

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #36 on: June 08, 2012, 10:39:02 AM »
I'm still fascinated by the possibility of  minimal maintenance, relatively  free energy in the form of  air source heat pumps http://www.energysavingtrust.org.uk/Generate-your-own-energy/Air-source-heat-pumps.  I'd love one in my garden.

I need a new boiler and British Gas don't do these sadly.

Neither could they advise on the risks, in freezing temperatures, associated with warming up a small space to keep the ambient temperature high by holding onto  some inert glassified nuclear waste. I used to take people around the project at Harwell, called the Harvest Fingal project. Still think it could work well. 

For those who might be interested...here's the report http://www.iaea.org/Publications/Magazines/Bulletin/Bull204/20402642329.pdf

Looks like I'm stuck with a conventional boiler due to Thames Water's rubbish water pressure despite a strong desire to be even more energy efficient..

Offline Muggins

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #37 on: June 08, 2012, 12:07:06 PM »
What about those underground heating systems surely when they put new housi8ng in, they could try that out?
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Offline Alex

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #38 on: June 08, 2012, 12:38:47 PM »
What about those underground heating systems surely when they put new housi8ng in, they could try that out?

You'd think so but apparently you need a huge garden for it to be effective. Most newbuilds have no garden worth speaking of. Its all about getting as much out of as little space as possible.  Even to the point that some furniture manufacturers make 3/4 sized furniture just for show houses to fool prospective buyers into thinking they can fit in normal sized furniture!  >:(

Offline Muggins

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Re: Are nuclear power plants going to stay switched on in Britain?
« Reply #39 on: June 08, 2012, 06:19:21 PM »
I was thinking of something like they had at Moredon when the built the council houses there, where they had one big bonfire or whatever fuel they used, and this fed all the houses.  The generator thing was housed on the site of the Cheney Manor Garden Centre, whihc was later the Borough gardening depot (remember that) .

I wonder if it's possible to double or triple layer the underground heating and what a jolly good reason to leavea lot of open space.

BTW, I discovered today, where Kevin McCloed got his inspiration for his Northern Road Development - Ducal a town in the film Shrek.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)