Author Topic: Wierd in Eastcott: Savernake Community Hall palmed-off onto the Tamil Association  (Read 680 times)

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Offline Tobes

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Something very strange happening in Eastcott....?

The Back Garden Group have been made aware of a letter in circulation to 'regular users of the hall' that it's furture management is to be handed over to 'The Tamil Association'. The letter basically presents this change as a fait accompli, but invites anyone with any comments or criticism to contact the person in SBC - a certain Mark Feeney.

Immediate obvious issues arrise from the implications of this decision.

- Why is a community hall being taken out of SBC management and handed over to a third party group?
- What consultation has been made with the local community (well, thats rhetorical question, because the answer is, quite clearly, none - the only people engaged with is the unknown list of current 'regular users' - though how they have been defined is unknown. None of the people I spoke to in Eascott knew anything about it.
- Who are the Tamil Association, and what special qualification saw them selected to manage this community asset going forwards?
-  What was the criteria by which this decision was taken - and when and where was (was?) this opportunity made public to allow a fair bid to be made by other potentially issued parties?

Lots of questions which The Back Garden Group will be looking into, as once again, it appears that the supposed community engament programme has tripped over its own shoe-laces.

Mark Feeny is according to here - http://www.swindonsp.org.uk/ssp-index/communityinformation-2/communitygrants-2.htm

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Mark Feeny - Contract and Commissioning Officer


....? Whats the connection?

As for the Swindon Tamil Association - more can be found here: http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8964299.Pride_of_Swindon_award_winner__Ram_and_Aruna_Thiagarajah/?ref=rss

The head of the STA is a rotarian and a magistrate to boot. No doubt a fine and upstanding man, but once again, the unfortunate way in which this decision seems to have been made on the communities behalf rather than with their prior knowledge and engagement has a lot of people asking some very obvious questions once again about the motivations of their council supposed-servants.

The selection process should surely have been announced an run publically to transparent criteria...?
« Last Edit: February 01, 2012, 06:11:11 PM by Tobes »
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam... 'Sex alleviates tension. Love causes it.' - Woody Allen

Offline Richard Symonds

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What influence did you local Councillors have on this situation Tobes?

Or were they too busy watching what Chris Watts was doing and therefore missed it?

I was at Full Council, a few years ago now, when a Council Resolution was passed unaminously stating that 'Officers Must Advise Councillors of anything that Affects their Wards.'  So.......

Were your local Councillors informed or did they choose to take no action?

Online Muggins

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"Why is a community hall being taken out of SBC management and handed over to a third party group?"

That part is common practice and usually to be applauded.  I take your point about consultation though, as the Tamil Group are a community of race/creed more than a community group from Eastcott.

No doubt the Tamil group have been asking for a centre of their own for some time - also common practice - and that one maybe underused by the community (also common), but more about SBC's inability to provide a pro-active community service.  thats not a critisism
of SBC, it would be farrrrr too expensive for them to do that in all the communties.

Having said that the Tamil Group may well be able to manage it so that the local community can use it too and provide a better service to the local community than you are getting now. I can say that it's not the easiset thing to do.

It could be that it was this or knock it down and build housing on the site.
Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Online the gorgon

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Out of interest are there any examples of non council run community centres in Swindon, I'm sure I've heard of some but can't think where they are?

It does seem a bit underhand I must admit but as muggins says it could well be that the Tamil community are prepared to put in the hours necessary to manage the place and that the alternative is closure.

Offline Tobes

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It does seem a bit underhand I must admit but as muggins says it could well be that the Tamil community are prepared to put in the hours necessary to manage the place and that the alternative is closure.


It could

But we are all aware (through numerous examples) of the suggestion of decisions being made and opportunities being given to people according to political advantage, rather than any other criteria which are subjected to proper scrutiny. The way this has been mishandled might be said to invite such suspicion.

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It could be that it was this or knock it down and build housing on the site.


It could

Is this something which has/is happening to the other community amenities across the town?
Is there a current precedent for groups taking over the management of publically owned local amenities?

Here's the gen on the hall:

http://www.swindon.gov.uk/cm/cm-halls/cm-halls-find/Pages/cm-halls-find-savernake.aspx

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What influence did you local Councillors have on this situation Tobes?

Or were they too busy watching what Chris Watts was doing and therefore missed it?

I was at Full Council, a few years ago now, when a Council Resolution was passed unaminously stating that 'Officers Must Advise Councillors of anything that Affects their Wards.'  So.......

Were your local Councillors informed or did they choose to take no action?


We have asked for a meeting with them which should be happening in the next few days (any interested parties can follow this topic by visiting the Back Garden blog too).

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the Tamil Group are a community of race/creed more than a community group from Eastcott.


Yes- this is of course of interest and concern to a number of people: this is a community hall, not a church hall, so its mnagement by a group with a specific religiouselement and beliefs (personally,this is something I'm less bothered by, but people are entitled to express their concern if the process has been conducted in such a quiet way)
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam... 'Sex alleviates tension. Love causes it.' - Woody Allen

Online Muggins

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Tobes, "Is this something which has/is happening to the other community amenities across the town?
Is there a current precedent for groups taking over the management of publically owned local amenities?"

Yes, there is, i'm on the committee of two of them and others aroudn the town are

John Moulton Hall, Chippenham Close Community Centre, Gorse hill, Even Swindon, Toothill or Freshbrook (or both)  Walcot Dome, to name abut a few, then there are the other community facilities like the fishing rights, Penhill Orchard, Parks Shop, Walcot Library, Richard Jefferies Museum.   

I've moaned on endlessly on TS and just about everywhere else about the lack of a  Community Asset Transfer policy and perhaps if we had one, then part of that would incude the necessity to consult with the community in which any facility might lie.   All the above (except Lawns and CCCC who do have a proper lease) have a Tenancy at Will, which I think means, Will SBC let us keep it!

Most of the larger ethnic groups in Swindon seem to have a place of their own, but most of them I think are not SBC owned buildings, they've raise the money to buy or build themselves. 

Maybe strings might have been pulled, but each committee now must attract 'fit and proper' people to their management committee's - and keep 'em. 

Is it the only community building in Eastcott - and are you talking about the Moose Hall?

Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Online the gorgon

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Thanks muggins, knew there were some!

Looks like only 6 community centres are managed/run by SBC and Savernake St Social Hall is one of them
http://www.swindon.gov.uk/cm/cm-halls/cm-halls-find/Pages/cm-halls-find.aspx

Offline Tobes

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Wow. This has been an education for me.

How sad that the council can't turn a small profit from the efficient usage of an asset that so many groups and charities want - space?

Why do they think private groups can do it, but they can't?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam... 'Sex alleviates tension. Love causes it.' - Woody Allen

Online Mart

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Be privatising bin collection next......

It's like watching a snake eat it's own tail, except it's not exclusively it's tail to eat.
As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.

Online Des Morgan

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It does appear that the decision to grant permission for the Tamil Association to run the Hall was made last summer as the Association agreed with the council to manage the hall back in June/July 2011. According to the Tamil Association the meeting was called by SBC

This is the wording used by the Tamil Association in their July 2011 newsletter

'The President also attended a meeting called by the Swindon Borough Council to discuss the future of the pilot of the usage of the Savernake Community Hall.
After consulting the Executive Committee it was decided in principle to take charge of running the Community Hall with other charitable organisations'



Offline Tobes

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... All apparently decided by the groups currently using the facility - but with no reference or consultation with the community who's rates pay for it...

Sounds fair, eh?

 :idiot2:

I'd say, if they want it managed privately, fine - but make sure its funded privately and give us a corresponding cut in council tax.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam... 'Sex alleviates tension. Love causes it.' - Woody Allen

Offline Richard Symonds

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I'd say, if they want it managed privately, fine - but make sure its funded privately and give us a corresponding cut in council tax.


I take it you are discussing this very point with your local Councillors Tobes and at the same time asking them why they did not discuss it with you local people?

Online the gorgon

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I'd say, if they want it managed privately, fine - but make sure its funded privately and give us a corresponding cut in council tax.


I take it you are discussing this very point with your local Councillors Tobes and at the same time asking them why they did not discuss it with you local people?


To quote a comment the Swindon's Back Garden blog: "...have read recent correspondence within Back Garden and have received a copy of Stan’s note (not through the Focus team?)

I think Stans Pajak’s concerns (in the letter which has just gone door-to-door) rather match my own – but that said, Peters requested some clarifications will at least make the agenda for a proposed meeting a little clearer to all."

http://swindonbackgarden.wordpress.com/2012/01/29/savernake-hall-changes/#comments

Is it just possible that the local councillors were left out of the process or their views were ignored?

Offline Richard Symonds

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Is it just possible that the local councillors were left out of the process or their views were ignored?


Either way that is unacceptable, but if it were the former it breaks a Council Resolution or if it were the latter it proves their ineffectiveness.

Online Muggins

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The assets managed by local people are unfortunately not owned by the local people but leased, so the building or asset stays in the ownership of the people via SBC of course.  The Tenancy at Will (like lease but not nearly so long term) is the initial agreement of who out of the owner and the occupier does what.   

The group of local people will be committed to running the building for the benefit of the community and it's not fair to say that they do not ask the community what it wants to see going on. They may be not very good at that, but they are infinitely better at it than the borough, because the community very soon tells you what it thinks, especially if they are not happy with it - usually in the middle of a crowded foyer, very loudly and in not polite terms!.

Some centre's run it on strict business lines, they are fortunate, but in the main it's a run it to 'keep even' situation, local groups can get grants, but cannot get those for any builidng developments for the simple reason is they don't have long term leases, neither can you get cost for 'runnign costs' these have to be tagged onto some project or other. Unless they can raise money to pay staff, they have to give their lives up to being there, opening and shutting the building, cleaning etc.  Although it can rent space out that's not so easy as you think. 

In the past there was always a SBC grant to help out for the year, but that's not the norm now - the idea is that we give our TIME and provide a service for the community.  Added to that the (expert) support that once was there has also gone.

Many years ago, I remember a senior SBC officer, who later became a Councillor once saying to me (at the time of  Compulsory Competitive Tendering, that he was keen to see every community centre with a managment committee well and truly with their feet under the table, or he could see that, if CCT took off, all our centres could be sold off to anyone willing to take them on and jokingly said that our community centres could be own and run long arm from Nabisco Biscuits in Germany or some such analogy).

Unless there is a group of local people waiting to take over the Hall in question then I would say it's a good thing the Tamir community want to do it.  If it's on a lease or Tenancy at Will they are in effect keeping the building warm and used until such time as the physical community want it back.

But like I said, it's a shame the question wasn't asked.  I know SBC are reluctant to hand building management over to people who are raw recruits and rightly so,  there is no one who can give that raw group the support they will need to do the job and the raw group won't be the one's winning in the faunding race.

If anyone wants to have a go, and have any skills they think would be relevant, please send me a personal message, I know of some vacancies on Trustee boards. Or pop into the Volunteer Centre and find what's on offer there - I can assure you there will be plenty of opportunties. Prepare to be interviewed!

Skills required at present: A tanker full of patience, PR, Marketing, Financial planning, budgeting, fundraising, secreterial, legal, and expect to be asked to be CRB checked. Having a smattering of correct procedures for meetings etc would help.

Other volunteer vacancies: *Caretaking, odd job men, cooks, bottle washers, floor cleaners, furniture humpers, PC repairs, publicists -posters, leaflets, web pages etc, receptionists, minute takers, typist, filing, even the odd bit of gardening.

* Expect to be called out at any hour night or day, lots of evening and weekend work.
Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Online the gorgon

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Is it just possible that the local councillors were left out of the process or their views were ignored?


Either way that is unacceptable, but if it were the former it breaks a Council Resolution or if it were the latter it proves their ineffectiveness.


Of course it's not right, but I think we all know how SBC seems to work.

If views were ignored I suppose you could call it being ineffective, personally I'd call it:
A) not sharing the General Secretary of the Central Committee of the Conservative Party of the Borough of Swindon's   "5 year vision for a great and vibrant Conservative utopia in Swindon prosecuted through the ideals of the Big Society and the teachings of David Cameron"
B) not being a member of the Tory SBC Politburo 
>:D

If you don't share the vision and aren't a member of the SBC Politburo you can pretty much forget having any influence.

Online Muggins

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You could in this case,  just talk directly to the Tamil Group. 
Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Offline Richard Symonds

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But like I said, it's a shame the question wasn't asked.  I know SBC are reluctant to hand building management over to people who are raw recruits and rightly so,  there is no one who can give that raw group the support they will need to do the job and the raw group won't be the one's winning in the faunding race.


Ah yes Muggins but only when it suits them please. 

Look at the Walcot Dome and how it was left to founder and get into trouble twice.  Even Rod Bluh promised intervention, but when push comes to shove his administration and its Lead Member for Communities failed the people of Walcot and the Trustees who were out of their depth.

Interesting that this has only just surfaced or has it?

Offline Richard Symonds

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If you don't share the vision and aren't a member of the SBC Politburo you can pretty much forget having any influence.


Gorgon I thought the Liberals were in Coalition with the Conservative Administration?

If you attended Council you would know that more often than not they support them with their votes!

So if I were them I would be more than a little pissed if they were not privvy to this decision and anyway as I said previously it was agreed in a Council Motion that Officers Must Inform Members of Anything that Affects their Ward.  Why do I remember this so clearly?  Because Dr Owen Lister who preceded Vera Tomlinson in Abbey Meads achieved the word Must to replace Should in the Motion.

Does our Council take any notice of what it discusses in its Chamber? 

Or Only what suits the purpose of the Administration?

Online the gorgon

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If you don't share the vision and aren't a member of the SBC Politburo you can pretty much forget having any influence.


Gorgon I thought the Liberals were in Coalition with the Conservative Administration?

If you attended Council you would know that more often than not they support them with their votes!

So if I were them I would be more than a little pissed if they were not privvy to this decision and anyway as I said previously it was agreed in a Council Motion that Officers Must Inform Members of Anything that Affects their Ward.  Why do I remember this so clearly?  Because Dr Owen Lister who preceded Vera Tomlinson in Abbey Meads achieved the word Must to replace Should in the Motion.

Does our Council take any notice of what it discusses in its Chamber? 

Or Only what suits the purpose of the Administration?


The LibDems in Swindon are like those in Westminster - patsies for the Tory party in exchange for taste of power (but not any real power).  I just think they might be too daft to realise that they put themselves in position where both the Left and Right will attack them.

I know I'm cynical but I can't help but think that the Administration only worries about rules when it suits their purpose.