Author Topic: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?  (Read 21301 times)

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Offline Bassettina

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #40 on: October 25, 2011, 03:22:54 PM »
James Grey also voted in favour of a referendum.

The biggest impact from leaving the EU could be to what's left of British agriculture. This is from Wikipedia, so take it with a large pinch of subsidised salt:

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The UK would have been contributing more money to the EU than any other EU member state, except that Margaret Thatcher's government negotiated a special annual UK rebate in 1984. Due to the way the rebate is funded, France pays the largest share of the rebate (31%), followed by Italy (24%) and Spain (14%)

The discrepancy in CAP funding is a cause of some consternation in the UK. As of 2004, France received 13% of total CAP funds more than the UK. This is a net benefit to France of €6.37 billion, compared to the UK. This is largely a reflection of the fact that France has more than double the land area of the UK. In comparison, the UK budget rebate for 2005 is scheduled to be approx €5.5 billion. The popular view in the UK (as, for example, set forth in the tabloid press) is that if the UK rebate were reduced with no change to the CAP, then the UK would be paying money to keep an inefficient French farming sector in business – to many people in the UK, this would be seen as "grossly unfair". French motives for generating arguments about "solidarity" and "selfishness" are therefore seen as extremely self-serving.

If the rebate were removed without changes to the CAP then the UK would pay a net contribution of 14 times that of the French (In 2005 EU budget terms). The UK would make a net contribution of €8.25 billion compared to the current contribution of €2.75 billion, versus a current French net contribution of €0.59 billion.

In December 2005 the UK agreed to give up approximately 20% of the rebate for the period 2007–2013, on condition that the funds did not contribute to CAP payments, were matched by other countries' contributions and were only for the new member states. Spending on the CAP remained fixed, as had previously been agreed. Overall, this reduced the proportion of the budget spent on the CAP. It was agreed that the European Commission should conduct a full review of all EU spending.


Also http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4407792.stm


Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #41 on: October 25, 2011, 10:42:52 PM »
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Did the majority of people in N. Swindon want a referendum or was it just a vocal minority?

The only way to find out would be to ASK them... what are you suggesting, a referendum on a referendum in order to prove it one way or the other?!

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Most people I know really don't care about Europe, they care about jobs, health, schools, paying the mortgage.  The only times they really seem bothered are when the media whip people up into a frenzy about Europe.

I think thats a pretty flawed position. MOST (in fact almost all) the people I know have been bothered by the issue of our involvement with Europe at some stage or another - from concern as to whether we really get more than we put in, to EU law, supposedly open borders to defence policy and EU federalisation. That ranges from local businessmen, colleagues in international corporates, down to people down the pub, friends and family.

A national vote would/should suit pro Europeans - if they can win the argument, it would finally resolve many of the underlying disquiet which an increasingly large percentage of the population feel. The fiscal collapse of Europe has proven that the experiment has been hugely flawed, as it shows one of its founding principals was... well, frankly, bollocks. An open common market should have allowed us to avoid the knock-on of greedy yank estate agents and bankers, shouldn't it?

We have suffered inequalities of input and reward, we have suffered financially and culturally because of imposed restrictions - and now face the prospect of having to use our limited funds to help subsidise/bail out corrupt administrations who've sat for 20 years over tax dodging, subsidy scrounging citizens. THAT at this very time, HAS to make the question of the level of our continuing involvement ENTIRELY apposite!!

Our national involvement at this level of integration - with all three parties either pro or 'expediently ambiguous' about Europe - is without proper mandate. Failure to address this simply hands more support to the likes of the far right wing.

Blaming the media is a weak side step too, in my opinion. Using your logic, I could just as easily say 'I don't think any of the following issues are worth worrying about' either:

Most people I know really don't care about murder, they care about jobs, health, schools, paying the mortgage.  The only times they really seem bothered are when the media whip people up into a frenzy about murder.

Most people I know really don't care about paedophiles, they care about jobs, health, schools, paying the mortgage.  The only times they really seem bothered are when the media whip people up into a frenzy about paedophiles.

'Jobs, health, schools, paying the mortgage' - these things all ENTIRELY depend upon and are shaped by the nature of our relationship with and membership to the EU.

If the EU is demonstrably being shown to be falling apart at the seams, its time to take that question to the people who will be paying for the continuation of the experiment - us, the tax payers and the people who haven't been given a clear vote for over 30 years.

... and now I will pause for breath and pour a beer.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Alex

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #42 on: October 26, 2011, 03:35:37 PM »
There is a difference between "not being bothered about the EU"  and feeling so overwhelmed at the enormity of the change that would be needed to make it work well that , like the size of our national debt, you put it to one side and try not to let it blight your life.

As people become more engaged in the "democracy" - or what passes for it in this country, and bother to read and find things out on the internet and as they discuss these topics on-line, maybe there will be more people who will be bothered and feel able to do something about it. Hence the protests against the status quo and exploitation of 99% by the 1%- even though the media are trying hard to discredit them.

 Small steps.....


Offline the gorgon

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #43 on: October 26, 2011, 07:05:29 PM »
There is a difference between "not being bothered about the EU"  and feeling so overwhelmed at the enormity of the change that would be needed to make it work well that , like the size of our national debt, you put it to one side and try not to let it blight your life.

As people become more engaged in the "democracy" - or what passes for it in this country, and bother to read and find things out on the internet and as they discuss these topics on-line, maybe there will be more people who will be bothered and feel able to do something about it. Hence the protests against the status quo and exploitation of 99% by the 1%- even though the media are trying hard to discredit them.

 Small steps.....

What 'information' will people find via the internet?  I wonder how many people found 'information' and 'reasoned discussion' about Barack Obama not having been born in America (and believed it), where a highly vocal and organised minority forced Obama to release his birth certificate.

Unfortunately most people don't have the time to wade through all the propaganda (on both sides) to find the real truth.  This is especially true when the propagandists know what makes people tick and how to whip people up into a frenzy.

How many people think the whole Human Rights Act business is to do with the European Union or the European Commission (and will happily tell others this 'information')?  I certainly did right up until somebody told me what the situation really was (and then I looked it up to double check) - it has NOTHING to do with EU/EC. It's all down to the  totally separate 47 country Council of Europe and the European Court of Human Rights.


Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #44 on: October 26, 2011, 07:38:34 PM »
More fallacious and contradictory logic from The Gorgon....

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What 'information' will people find via the internet?  I wonder how many people found 'information' and 'reasoned discussion' about Barack Obama not having been born in America (and believed it), where a highly vocal and organised minority forced Obama to release his birth certificate.


 :wink: What, the poor idiot proles mislead by 'the evil internet' eh?

Well, for starters, the internet is not a cartel run by the same media which you cited earlier as 'whipping people into a frenzy'. (Would that be the same media which is far more open to abuse by 'propagandists', by the way?) People in the 21st century have FAR MORE access to information than ever before - which is why they are more likely to make educated decisions on who and what to believe.

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What 'information' will people find via the internet?


 ::) - so information on the internet is not to be trusted? Oh, but...

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How many people think the whole Human Rights Act business is to do with the European Union or the European Commission (and will happily tell others this 'information')?  I certainly did right up until somebody told me what the situation really was (and then I looked it up to double check)


... except when The Gorgon looks it up, of course.

  :wink:

The point that Alex made very well is that with the advent of the internet, politicians can't rely on a tame media peddling a particular line to stifle the truth. In terms of he reality of the EU, sure there are crank assumptions and claims - but what ought to frighten the most strident pro EU propagandist are the simple facts.

Eg. How many years has this organisation failed to have its own accounts signed off?

Here's just one simple example of freely available information found on the internet and, importantly, which we can check upon in a historical context from old media articles - the level of organised and systemic fraud regarding the humble olive, thanks to the EU (note, this was first being reported on as far back as 1993 - and yet its STILL an issue):

http://articles.latimes.com/1993-08-31/news/wr-29872_1_european-community
http://www.economist.com/node/680051
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/1412372/Financial-watchdog-discloses-EU-fraud-and-error.html
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline the gorgon

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #45 on: October 26, 2011, 08:38:20 PM »
So what side of the debate are you on then I wonder Tobes?

In reality I'm neither avidly pro nor avidly anti European (when I talked about propaganda I said ON BOTH SIDES) - middle of the road you could say.  There's plenty wrong with the EU, plenty, failure to audit their accounts is just one of them. If you think I'm bad with my 'evil internet'  ;D ramblings that's nothing compared to the 'evil europe' ramblings of some anti-europeans (oddly I've not really encountered any pro-europe zealots).

You see when it comes to politics and related issue I've always been a had a tendency to be a bit of a piggy in the middle (or floating voter) it means I'm used to getting grief off both sides of a debate (sometimes the only thing the opposing sides can agree on is that I'm a pain :) ). 

Back to the 'evil internet' the problem with finding information on the internet is that it can take a lot of sifting, especially trying to find out what is fact and what is opinion (too many publications blur the line between the two far too much).  The biggest danger being that you gravitate towards the information that suits your own views (I'm as guilty as anyone of this) so your views are hardened rather than broadened.

Oh yeah, when I said I looked up about the Human Rights Act did I say where? Could have been the Library for all you know (it wasn't it was the 'evil internet').  :D

Offline Simon

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #46 on: October 26, 2011, 09:42:44 PM »
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How many people think the whole Human Rights Act business is to do with the European Union or the European Commission (and will happily tell others this 'information')?  I certainly did right up until somebody told me what the situation really was (and then I looked it up to double check)

... except when The Gorgon looks it up, of course.

If you could publish the links you found then that would be most helpful at this point, Gorgon.

Back to the 'evil internet' the problem with finding information on the internet is that it can take a lot of sifting, especially trying to find out what is fact and what is opinion (too many publications blur the line between the two far too much).  The biggest danger being that you gravitate towards the information that suits your own views (I'm as guilty as anyone of this) so your views are hardened rather than broadened.

Yep, there's definitely a distinction between fact and opinion as published on the interwebs, but I'd like to think that Tobes, the Gorgon and I are all smart enough to distinguish between fact and opinion?
We are all in this together, but some of us are more in it than others (with apologies to George Orwell)

Offline the gorgon

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #47 on: October 26, 2011, 10:31:55 PM »
Simon - I'm not sure that I can be trusted  :wink:

I've managed to dig up some of the links I used to find about about the human rights act and council of europe...
http://www.echr.coe.int/ECHR/EN/Header/The+Court/Introduction/Information+documents/ Even says in one leaflet that it shouldn't be confused with the EU court of justice
http://www.leeds.ac.uk/law/hamlyn/echr.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/European_Convention_on_Human_Rights
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/948143.stm

http://www.coe.int/lportal/web/coe-portal Just seen here that the UK is about to take chairmanship of the council of Europe
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Council_of_Europe
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/country_profiles/4816408.stm


Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #48 on: October 27, 2011, 01:27:06 AM »
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So what side of the debate are you on then I wonder Tobes?

I share the same position as you claim - which is why I think a referendum is long overdue  :wink:

I love Europe. But I'm opposed to the increasing federalisation of Europe. I'm all for free trade - but utterly opposed to central micro-management and the utter corruption of the eu polticial system.

I think your use of the word 'side' again illustrates why I'm getting frustrated with debate on TS - its suggests a simple partisanship once again, 'for or against'. My views and those of probably 95% of people who have an issue or concern over the EU don't follow the rantings of far right EU opponents either.

Lets give the people who pay their taxes and fund the damn thing a direct say for a change.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #49 on: October 27, 2011, 07:41:25 PM »
http://europa.eu/index_en.htm

Found this on the Interweb. Bit of a paradox, you have to step into it to get an idea of the scale, and simultaneously step back to wonder how the flip we got dragged into that bureaucratic behemoth.

It is gargantuan and has never, ever deliverd a net financial benefit to the United Kingdom. All of the numbers I can find crunched describe us as a net contributor. I will have to have the benefits explained to me slowly and in words of one syllable.

Unless the question was rhetorical the EU accounts have not been signed off for 16 years in succession. Which is ironic cos they've got loads of legislation determining what conditions other organisations should meet when they are audited.

It does affect the bits and bobs of the shopping basket, a portion will go to French peasant farmers who make cheese in pissoirs and olive tree farms in the Arctic Circle and ski resorts in the Med (That last one is true, Sardinia I think)

A concern that is popping up now is that those who have coughed to cover Greece and are shovelling wedge into the bail out fund will become an inner EU circle, there's 17 of them. Then there are the outsiders whose presses are already at full chat and so did not donate. That would be us and we are part of a minority. If we are really lucky we could have the worst of both worlds. We get to enjoy EU legislation, we get to donate and we get to be in the minority who gets outvoted. The first prospect being mooted is that there financial transaction tax getting waved through.

Our present position is untenable. If we are in then we appear to be surplus one layer of government, if we are out we'd soon find out whether we are as good as we think we are.

Pretty shameful antics in the Mother of all Parliaments all things considered.


Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Simon

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #50 on: October 27, 2011, 09:47:36 PM »
The first prospect being mooted is that there financial transaction tax getting waved through.


Are you referring to http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tobin_tax ?
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Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #51 on: October 28, 2011, 12:52:58 PM »
That's the puppy.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #52 on: October 28, 2011, 06:40:29 PM »
Goody goody gumdrops.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-15490890

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-15487674

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-15489202

http://www.johnkay.com/2011/10/26/europes-elite-is-fighting-reality-and-will-lose

Why there is not a disorderly queue hurtling towards the exit I really don't know. I think the first out will be the most successful, eventually the EU is likely to consist of Ireland, Italy, Portugal, Spain and Turkey who failed to get the memo. Germany will be busily trundling round Europe in Panzers repossessing their assets.

I'm bit of a thicky but the way I understand it Germany and France are paying some other countries some money so that those countries can pay France and Germany back the money they have borrowed. In the case of Italy at an unsustainable 6.06%. Where France and Germany cannot lend those countries enough to ensure France and Germany are paid back the EU will drum it up directly from places like China, and lend it on, or borrow it very indirectly (where it is politically expedient to obscure the movements of large wheelbarrows of freshly printed wonga) which is I believe the category we fall into whatever that nice Mr Osbourne says.

Will Cameron, or Milliband, continue wibbling on about constant battles with EU legislation and how it is sensible to keep spending £43m per day to support something that is hellbent on making our ability to pay that £43m increasingly difficult?

Bit like paying for burglars equipment so they can break into your house isn't it?

Also has the faint whiff of the insane economical antics that gave us global recession in the first place.

Given the opportunity I think I'd decline the opportunity to continue our membership of this asylum in it's present form.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #53 on: October 29, 2011, 12:05:41 AM »
According to the news this morning (Radio 4) - our tax money, used to bail out Greece, is going into an economy where, far example, the state railway service earns 400,000,000 euros but COSTS the state 4000,000.000 euros!!! THE AVERAGE ANNUAL SALARY OF A GREEK RAILWAY EMPLOYEE IS 65,000 EUROS!!! This is just another example of the endemic corruption and inefficiency that we're propping up. And on the drive home, I then hear that Spanish unemployment is now at 21% - with close on to 50% for the under 25s... and (cooincidence?) that they also receive some of the most generous unemployment benefits in the world...

Its over - an experiment which has proven that cultural differences are incompatible with a once-size-fits all economic system.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #54 on: October 29, 2011, 01:01:53 PM »
I've posted it before, but it becomes increasingly incredible.

According to information of the “Hellenic Defence & Technology” magazine, the U.S. authorities approved to grant 400 M1A1 Abrams tanks to the Greek Army, which will include options between simple refurbishment – worth tens of millions dollars for all the tanks- and upgrading to a higher level of operational capability, with a higher corresponding cost. The relative Letter of Offer and Acceptance (LOA) is expected soon.

Also according to exclusive information of the” Hellenic Defence & Technology” magazine, a Price and Availability letter was sent to U.S. authorities regarding 20 AAV7A1 and a low cost upgrade program for them. This is the first step to cover an operational requirement for 75-100 vehicles.

Additional exclusive details on these requirements as well as for Bradley IFVs, in a forthcoming issue of the “Hellenic Defence & Technology” magazine.


We've currently got 386.

The only long term military threat to Greece is Turkey.

Both German Chancellor Angela Merkel and French President Nicolas Sarkozy have called for Turkey to have a "privileged partnership" with the EU instead of full EU membership.

Mr Fuele defended the level of EU financial support for Turkey, arguing that fulfilling the EU "acquis" - the numerous standards and laws enforced across the EU - was "not a cheap exercise".

EU financial assistance for Turkey totalled 654m euros (£544m; $851m) in 2010. It will rise to 782m euros in 2011 and 900m in 2012, the European Commission says.


No, still struggling to see the benefits of membership. Mr Buckland would have to explain his reasoning for me to get 'onside' with him. Hopefully it will extend further than 'I was frightened by Mr Whippy'.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Bassettina

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #55 on: October 29, 2011, 02:12:29 PM »
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The trombonist's lot is not always a happy one. He needs a lot of puff, he often gets outshone by the more glamorous man on the saxophone, and it's a hard instrument to carry on a crowded train. But there are perks – in Greece, playing the instrument is deemed "arduous and unhealthy" and means players can retire at 50.

...

Trombonists are among a select group of professionals that includes bakers, hairdressers and masseurs, who are allowed to retire early because of the nature of their work. And some of the striking civil servants yesterday leapt to defend the system. "What if these people have been working from their teenage years?" said Yanna Venieri.



http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/europe/greece-to-call-time-on-cushy-pension-deals-for-unhealthy-jobs-1978789.html

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Does anyone know if the two Swindon MPs spoke on legal aid for the most vulnerable last night? How did they vote?

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #57 on: November 01, 2011, 09:22:14 AM »
I think Robert did speak on the subject and voted with the government. Though I will wait for they work for you email to confirm it.
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #58 on: November 01, 2011, 09:29:12 AM »
I read in the paper this morning, that the Greek gov has now put all the measures put forward by the EU to sort out the country, to a vote for either yes or no, in view of the free train rides retirement age etc, cant see them voting for the measures and China has said it cant help with the bail out in financial terms, so where does that leave the EU now...

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #59 on: November 01, 2011, 09:36:40 AM »
OK how did Justin Tomlinson vote and did he speak?