Author Topic: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?  (Read 18280 times)

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Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #20 on: October 13, 2011, 12:44:07 AM »
@Mart

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Why can't we have pick and mix politics?

I reckon because very few politicians have the strength of character or belief to do what's right as opposed to doing what's expedient. Defying the whip - or at least party manifesto or policy takes guts, principal - and in fairness to Anne, is likely to shorten your political career (though ultimately, not reflecting or understanding your electorates views will have the same result!). But therin lies the fundamental flaw in our entire system. A party getting elected with a majority in a first past the post system is working on a tiered list of 'mean average' manifesto pledges which attempt to blend their political doctrine with things which chime with a bigger chunk of the population than the opposition. Frequently those things represent a majority of public opinion not the majority. Note the difference. It also means that to be selected, the candidate must be seen as a safe and loyal pair of hands... that automatically means compromising what they believe - or what their electorate might believe - in order to reflect the vision which the party imposes.

Parties obsessed by simplistic searching for public opinion also miss the nuances of what people really think (and why) - and also avoid the obvious conclusions and ramifications resulting from knee-jerk policy making. For instance, if after 9/11 you had polled people to see if they thought that terrorism was something they were extremely worried about and which they wanted govt. to protect them from, you'd read huge approval. However, it would not imply a mandate for all sorts of errosions of civil liberties - things which (irony of ironies!) the very terrorists themselves have imposed and approve of in the countries in which their views have held sway.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #21 on: October 13, 2011, 01:30:45 AM »
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Surely if you disagree with DNA being kept for 6 years you also disagree with it being kept at all? Otherwise what are your arguments for keeping it 3 years? If you are all true libertarians, i.e. anti id cards, anti DNA retention, anti 30+ day detention, you will surely not support the Tory/Lib Dem position on these as well?

Go on, make the argument instead of flinging insults!


 :wink: Fair enough - I've been pretty rude in the past and you've made me feel embarrassed that I have been uncivil. But please understand, its difficult to keep a polite tongue when some of the proposals are so deeply illogical or immoral - and I don't apologise for attacking those things, or their supporters.

DNA records. I have no issue with DNA being kept on record if someone is convicted of a (serious) offence. No different than mug-shots, finger prints or anything else. Keeping records on people unconvicted or not being actively investigated is a different kettle of fish. Why?

Reason 1. The reason I believe so strongly in the moral iniquity of this policy, you have over-turned the fundamental principal of innocence until proven guilty. That has served well for 100s of years as a pretty fundamental aspect of UK law - and a guiding principal of civil liberty in a country which thrives without the ridiculous encumbrance of a written constitution.

What you are excusing is a system in which the state keeps police records on people merely for having been picked up and questioned. Taking DNA off people (using force if necessary, please note) who have committed no crime in the eyes of the law, is to treat ALL citizens of this country as de facto suspects. That is highly totalitarian - and if you check your definitions of what fascism means, explains why its the sort of policy which would get the thumbs up from dictators right around the globe.

Reason 2. Think logically about the ramifications of this policy. On the one hand, its bound at some level to result in more convictions, as the police steadily harvest more and more data, which will, inevitably, given the vast numbers involved, allow evidential links to be made. However, from a police perspective, this has now given them an extra and rather ugly agenda. Every new record harvested and put on that database ups the chances of more convictions. More convictions means happy politicans who can read the latest increases in conviction rates (and therefore by implication, protecting more money for the police!). The only means the police have of enhancing and increasing that database is to pull people in and extract more DNA. There is a huge danger of pretexts being used here to allow the police to gather this information without actually having gathered any evidence to require it - and to do it using force.

Reason 3. DNA is still being viewed as a panacea and as virtually irrefutable evidence. However, as the size of the database increases, so do the percentage chances of ordinary and innocent citizens who's data has been picked up in this way being needlessly implicated in crimes with which they had no connection what-so-ever. But don't take my word for it - see what many of the experts themselves say: http://www.councilforresponsiblegenetics.org/GeneWatch/GeneWatchPage.aspx?pageId=57

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If you are all true libertarians, i.e. anti id cards, anti DNA retention, anti 30+ day detention, you will surely not support the Tory/Lib Dem position on these as well?


Absolutely - I for one can't support it as the correct policy. However, its just that as true libertarians we can see that by halving the period, they are at least half as bad as you were. If Robert and Justin had voted against the bill, we'd still be left with the 6 years you imposed upon us (you did vote for the original legislation, did you not?).

What are YOU actually proposing then Anne? Or are you point scoring?  :-\

The bottom line for me and many others who's understanding reaches further than the Daily Panic, is that if you have not been convicted of any crime and are not being investigated, you should not have a police record. That's as simple and fair relationship between a law abiding citizen, the state and its (supposedly OUR) police as you can get, surely?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Anne Snelgrove

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #22 on: October 13, 2011, 10:48:00 AM »
Great stuff Tobes. I agree with some of your arguments but not all, and I'm certainly not interested in political point scoring (too boring). Hopwever, I'll have to come back to you later with counter arguments as I have to do some work for a few hours!

Watch this space.....

 :hippy: Pink Pashmina, remember that?

Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #23 on: October 13, 2011, 11:01:19 PM »
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Pink Pashmina, remember that?

Actually Anne, whilst I was quite vociferous, I wasn't usually quite so personal. I think the dislike of your pashmina and the subsequent sobriquet came from either ZPW or our very own Geoff! (if you saw the sorry state of my attire, you'd see why I generally avoid daring to criticise the sartorial taste of others  :wink: )

 :angel:

Thank you for taking the time to debate here. I'd be interested to hear the counter arguments on the DNA question.
« Last Edit: October 14, 2011, 12:38:41 AM by Tobes »
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Bassettina

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #24 on: October 14, 2011, 06:53:30 AM »
There is of course the wider wuestion of how we expect our MPs to vote, which would be useful to clarify befor they are elected.

Do MPs vote on their own conscience? If so, it's useful to know the person they are before votiong for them.

Do MPs vote on the party line? Then it's useful to read the national manifestos

Do MPs vote to reflect the views on their constituents? Then you want someone who actively gets involved in the local area.

Chances are, the MPs will never do all three at the same time, but will do the first or second (while claiming they're doing the third). Not necessarily a problem, but it does contribute to the confusion and disappointment some feel when the MP votes against local interests.

Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #25 on: October 24, 2011, 06:23:27 PM »
I have just seen the news ITV and Justin Tomlinson was mentioned as one of the MPs who are going to go against the Tory administration by voting AGAINST the EU Referendum.
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #26 on: October 24, 2011, 06:51:18 PM »
I'd respect him a bit more if he did.

Someone's going to have to explain to me, slowly, why polls and this petition thingy are secondary to what the nasty whip man says. Perhaps if this had happened closer to an election there would be a different outcome?

The UK is like a swimmer toiling across the Channel with the drowning man that is the EU clinging to our neck. Normally I'd feel quite compassionate, but this drowning man is drowning because he's been gorging in the trough, troughing at the grain mountain and slurping from the wine lake at our expense for 36 feckin years.

I find it frustrating (can you tell) that all three leaders are expending such energy to get a 'no' vote in Parliament where a 'yes' vote from the public was such a certainty.

I've just watched Milliband slagging off Cameron neatly ignoring the fact that he's going to bully his MP's (some less than others) to vote the same way.

I could rant for ever on this, but I'm fairly comfortable with the idea that I'd eel the same way if the subject was one where I actually agreed with the Government, it's the flafgrant disregard for Democracy through a communication channel that Government actually championed that irks me.

Sorry, I'm foaming up now.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #27 on: October 24, 2011, 08:05:08 PM »
Well according  to the news ITV there are quite a few Tory MPs voting against the EU with some abstaining.

It will be interesting.

David Cameron said something along the lines of, 'if your house was on fire, you would make sure you put your own fire out before saving your neighbours,' - well something like that. I am sure someone will know what he said word for word.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/mobile/uk-politics-15425256?psdata=11_3_8_4_9_10__CD11__CK12_14_15_

There is a bit of a rebellion going on inside the camp!
It demonstrates that just because you represent a political party does not necessarily mean you agree with everything they do.
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #28 on: October 24, 2011, 08:07:32 PM »
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Sorry, I'm foaming up now.
Mart please  don't foam up, we may lose you in amongst the bubbles  :wink:
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline swindoncentric

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #29 on: October 24, 2011, 08:42:55 PM »
According to a tweet by BBC Wiltshire, Justin Tomlinson will vote for a referendum, which the North Swindon MP has retweeted!


Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #30 on: October 24, 2011, 08:46:14 PM »
According to a tweet by BBC Wiltshire, Justin Tomlinson will vote for a referendum, which the North Swindon MP has retweeted!
How strange!
I will see if i can find the link on ITV player for the news. I know I didn't dream it!
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Russell Holland

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #31 on: October 24, 2011, 08:48:53 PM »
We were out canvassing on Saturday and Justin confirmed he is voting for a referendum.

Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #32 on: October 24, 2011, 09:10:06 PM »
http://www.itv.com/news/fullprogramme/

Yes I do apologies  - i have posted the link.
You will have to excuse me - i am blonde and dipsy at times  :embarassed:

I had me headphones in and picked up key words so i didn't hear all of it .
Silly me.
I do apologise - but its still exciting   >:D

Did anyone else hear the names of some of the MPs mentioned on the News tonight ?
Please tell me I am not going that crazy ................ yet !


Chav
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Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #33 on: October 24, 2011, 09:25:24 PM »
I have just seen the news ITV and Justin Tomlinson was mentioned as one of the MPs who are going to go against the Tory administration by voting AGAINST the EU Referendum.

Just to clarify - he is voting against what David Cameron wants as in voting FOR a referendum to do with the EU .

I was sort of right but sort of wrong - i think my hearing was doing the okey cokey as I had me earphones in playing Angry Birds on me Android Pad while watching the telly at the same time !

That will teach me wont it  O0

"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #34 on: October 24, 2011, 11:17:06 PM »
Well, good for Justin for voting either for what he strongly believes in, or what the majority of his constituents want (hopefully a blend of the two).

The first thing which ought to go in a reformed House of Commons is the whip. Its an outmoded and completely undemocratic process.

How did Mr B vote?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline the gorgon

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #35 on: October 24, 2011, 11:34:46 PM »
According to a tweet by BBC Wiltshire, Justin Tomlinson will vote for a referendum, which the North Swindon MP has retweeted!

Wonder if Justin asked any North Swindon businesses (other than a certain pub in S. Marston) about their thoughts on a referendum?  You know like Honda and BMW.

Did the majority of people in N. Swindon want a referendum or was it just a vocal minority? Most people I know really don't care about Europe, they care about jobs, health, schools, paying the mortgage.  The only times they really seem bothered are when the media whip people up into a frenzy about Europe.

Personally this whole vote strikes me almost as fiddling whilst Rome burns. We're possibly looking at a double dip recession and instead of sorting out the economy 100,000 people have managed to make the government and MPs waste their time on this (even if the government lost they were under no obligation to do anything).   :idiot2:

Offline Alex

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #36 on: October 25, 2011, 07:01:36 AM »
Well, good for Justin for voting either for what he strongly believes in, or what the majority of his constituents want (hopefully a blend of the two).

The first thing which ought to go in a reformed House of Commons is the whip. Its an outmoded and completely undemocratic process.

How did Mr B vote?

Mr B tweets that he would oppose the motion, but that it was his own decision.

Offline Muggins

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #37 on: October 25, 2011, 09:46:14 AM »
Gorgon: Did the majority of people in N. Swindon want a referendum or was it just a vocal minority? Most people I know really don't care about Europe, they care about jobs, health, schools, paying the mortgage.  The only times they really seem bothered are when the media whip people up into a frenzy about Europe.

I agree with Gorgon, rather than having a *referendum about having a referendum, the times are such that the other things mentioned in his post are more important at this time.

*Which Justin would need to do, to know if he was really representing the people of North Swindon on this subject.   



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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #38 on: October 25, 2011, 01:35:40 PM »
If people dont regard the EU in anyway, then I wonder why people say about jobs etc, due to eu regs we have an open door policy to immigrants, who then take up our jobs, we plough billions into the EU and they cant even ratify their accounts let alone use them wisely, new laws every day, regarding such important issues like bendy cucumbers etc, meanwhile the money we do plough into the EU, could transform our country overnight.

Offline Chav

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #39 on: October 25, 2011, 02:43:31 PM »
If people dont regard the EU in anyway, then I wonder why people say about jobs etc, due to eu regs we have an open door policy to immigrants, who then take up our jobs, we plough billions into the EU and they cant even ratify their accounts let alone use them wisely, new laws every day, regarding such important issues like bendy cucumbers etc, meanwhile the money we do plough into the EU, could transform our country overnight.
There's nowt wrong with a bendy cucumber - you just have to watch your fingers when slicing round the bend.  :D
My grandad always grew bendy cucumbers in his greenhouse   :)
I agree Kohima too much food gets wasted because of silly laws. Nothing wrong with bendy cucumbers or bananas or Mis-shaped eggs. They are all edible  :wink:
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.