Author Topic: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?  (Read 20500 times)

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How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« on: September 09, 2011, 10:18:45 AM »
How did they vote on the Dorres wotsit and of course the NHS. Did they vote to privatise the NHS?



Offline komadori

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #1 on: September 09, 2011, 12:33:03 PM »
Courtesy of the Public Whip website, voting record of Mr Buckland, and voting record of Mr Tomlinson.

Both voted in favour of Ms Dorries' amendment and in favour of the National Health Service and Social Care Bill. I'm not aware of there being a vote about privatising the NHS.
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Offline Anne Snelgrove

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #2 on: October 11, 2011, 01:19:11 PM »
Last night (Monday 10 October) the House of Commons debated the Protection of Freedoms Bill. The bill is also being debated today so the final votes have not been held yet, but it may be of interest to political debate on TalkSwindon to see how our local MPs voted.

The Bill has had its first and second readings and has gone through the Committee stage, where it was scrutinised line by line by a small number of MPs. The whole House now has the opportunity to debate the changes made at Committee stage, and vote on further new clauses brought forward by MPs.

How Swindon’s MPs voted:
AGAINST retaining DNA on the database for six years, instead of three
AGAINST an amendment that would have regulated rogue car park ticketing as well as rogue wheel clampers
Both times they voted with the Government.
Further votes will be taken today.

The big debate last night was on the retention of DNA evidence. This is essentially a balance between civil liberties – why DNA should be retained if the person was found not guilty - and the use of DNA in securing convictions several years after crimes were committed.

My opinion is that keeping DNA indefinitely is wrong, but changes to the DNA database will make it harder, not easier, for the police to catch and convict dangerous criminals, because DNA will be retained only for three years, not six as recommended by police experts. The Government’s weakening of the DNA database goes against the Home Office’s own evidence.

For example, 17,000 people arrested but not charged with rape will be removed from the database and 23,000 criminals a year will no longer be on the database commit further crimes, including 6,000 serious crimes. This research was not published by the Government at the time.

To read the debate on DNA retention, click http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm111010/debtext/111010-0003.htm

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #3 on: October 11, 2011, 02:59:05 PM »
Can you tell us Ann, what your record was for voting with the government and not what the voters wanted..

Offline Bassettina

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #4 on: October 11, 2011, 06:09:45 PM »
Last night (Monday 10 October) the House of Commons debated the Protection of Freedoms Bill. The bill is also being debated today so the final votes have not been held yet, but it may be of interest to political debate on TalkSwindon to see how our local MPs voted.

The Bill has had its first and second readings and has gone through the Committee stage, where it was scrutinised line by line by a small number of MPs. The whole House now has the opportunity to debate the changes made at Committee stage, and vote on further new clauses brought forward by MPs.

How Swindon’s MPs voted:
AGAINST retaining DNA on the database for six years, instead of three
AGAINST an amendment that would have regulated rogue car park ticketing as well as rogue wheel clampers
Both times they voted with the Government.
Further votes will be taken today.

The big debate last night was on the retention of DNA evidence. This is essentially a balance between civil liberties – why DNA should be retained if the person was found not guilty - and the use of DNA in securing convictions several years after crimes were committed.

My opinion is that keeping DNA indefinitely is wrong, but changes to the DNA database will make it harder, not easier, for the police to catch and convict dangerous criminals, because DNA will be retained only for three years, not six as recommended by police experts. The Government’s weakening of the DNA database goes against the Home Office’s own evidence.

For example, 17,000 people arrested but not charged with rape will be removed from the database and 23,000 criminals a year will no longer be on the database commit further crimes, including 6,000 serious crimes. This research was not published by the Government at the time.

To read the debate on DNA retention, click http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmhansrd/cm111010/debtext/111010-0003.htm


"Arrested but not charged" should not lead to a supposition of guilt. The use of the word 'criminals' in the same sentence suggests all those arrested are de facto criminals: not true.

Regardless of the crime, the govt's own line is:

Quote
If you're released without charge
When the police have finished investigating they may release you because they:

•are satisfied you’re not involved in the crime
•don't have enough evidence to charge you with the crime

Even if they have enough evidence, they won’t necessarily charge you. You could be given a caution or warning instead of having to go to court.


I'm sorry to be so serious, but it's this disregard towards human rights which puts me off voting for Labour. 5 million people already have their DNA held - why should we have more non-guilty people on it? What would that achieve?

A good overview of the opposition to the database here: http://www.genewatch.org/sub-539478

Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #5 on: October 11, 2011, 06:23:48 PM »
'Police experts'? Who Anne?

The police and security experts I've spoken to in the last few years seem as divided on this issue as anyone. It could be argued that if you want to catch as many rapists and murderers as possible, EVERYONE should be on the DNA database FOREVER. Its only a small extension from that position to increasing the creep of CCTV to say, a vidi camera in every home to monitor the behaviour of all good citizens, heh? Now where did I read about that idea... Afterall, if we've nothing to hide, we've nothing to fear, eh?

Part of the basic, fundamental provisions of legal equality and freedom from oppression in this country has been based upon the assumption of innocence. If a plod wrongfully arrests me and my record remains unblemished, then no one has the right to keep my or any other free citizens DNA records - especially when they will end up stored on a government owned/sponsored computer database of questionable security and when it represents a terrible risk for abuse or mistake.

Before you comment on the voting record of your replacements Anne, please reflect upon your own - and the position you chose to take with those of us who questioned the direction Labour policy was headed - supported and consistently voted for by you. There's a rather large log in your own eye which requires extraction.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Bassettina

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #6 on: October 11, 2011, 06:52:19 PM »
From Yvette Cooper

Quote
And Conference, this is the Tory government that wants to slash the DNA database despite the fact that it helped catch rioters, and it helps solve thousands of crimes each year. In ten days time they plan to vote to take 17,000 suspected rapists off the database, despite the evidence from the police and Rape Crisis that this will make it even harder to bring rapists to justice and prevent this horrible crime.


As a woman, I object to the emotive use of rape as an example to support the DNA database. It's not about locking up rioters or rapists. In fact, turn the example on its head... this summer, you were walking through an area of London and a riot was taking place. The police rounded you up, along with everyone else and arrested you. You were released after 8 hours having committed no crime. You are innocent of any crime but your DNA will be held for 3 years. 6 if Labour get their way.

This is immoral and illegal. The European Court of Human Rights is quite clear on this one. If this is Labour's official position, that you deserve another 4 years in the wilderness.

Offline Bassettina

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #7 on: October 11, 2011, 06:55:48 PM »
Actually, could we set up a database of the banking details for every MP and ex-MP censured or even suspected of misusing the expenses system. You know, just in case? And keep it in the public domain, yeah? If you've done nothing wrong, what's there to hide?

Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #8 on: October 11, 2011, 07:55:03 PM »
http://www.theyworkforyou.com/mp/anne_snelgrove/south_swindon

There you go, unless someone else has done it.

Quite liking the MP database thingy, how about performance tables as well? In the National Press perhaps....

Be riots in a week, or DNA donation drive as they are now known.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #9 on: October 12, 2011, 12:50:03 AM »
Quote
As a woman, I object to the emotive use of rape as an example to support the DNA database. It's not about locking up rioters or rapists. In fact, turn the example on its head... this summer, you were walking through an area of London and a riot was taking place. The police rounded you up, along with everyone else and arrested you. You were released after 8 hours having committed no crime. You are innocent of any crime but your DNA will be held for 3 years. 6 if Labour get their way.

This is immoral and illegal. The European Court of Human Rights is quite clear on this one. If this is Labour's official position, that you deserve another 4 years in the wilderness.


Quite brilliantly put -  :clap:

I'm really genuinely frustrated, surprised and disappointed that people who I really genuinely respect have chosen to align themselves with a party which propounds such stupid, illiberal and downright terrifying doctrine.

Just because you might have an issue with aspects of conservative policy does not and should not mean that you become an ally of this sort of philosophy, surely?

I'd invite those who do to visit this thread and explain please: http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php?topic=7997.msg69863;topicseen#msg69863
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Chris Watts

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #10 on: October 12, 2011, 02:32:35 AM »
I'm really genuinely frustrated, surprised and disappointed that people who I really genuinely respect have chosen to align themselves with a party which propounds such stupid, illiberal and downright terrifying doctrine.
My general philosophy in life is to try and get in amongst it and see if you can affect change or make a difference (Not just in politics). You need a set of core principles that you can hang your hat on with a realisation that you are not going to get 100% consensus all the time in any group of people.

For example, when I played football we had a new manager who believed in the 4-3-1-2 diamond formation with attacking wingbacks. It was a bit too European and technical for my liking but we worked with it for a while before returning to the good old British 4-4-2 formation, with shorts below the knees, a woodbine at half time and a bottle of stout in the bar après les game. In the first part of the season I could of said "screw this" and picked up me ball and gone home. Instead a few of us worked on the manager and got him to change his methods. (we still got spanked most weeks but at least our knees were warm)

There is a shed load of metaphors in there. :)

(Please do not take this reply as me being conceited, I have no idea who you genuinely respect. Just thought I would chuck in my two-penneth.)
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Offline Tobes

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #11 on: October 12, 2011, 07:59:53 AM »
You are genuinely one of those I respect Chris!!!

I hope that people like you can make the changes which are needed. Old fashioned capitalism has been shown for the inherent eternal gamble with life and prosperity which even its most ardent supporters have to concede it is. Some sort of political and philosophical balance based around morality and common care is needed over and above greed, expedience and self interest.

But in their own way, when Harman comes up with the dangerous bag of bollocks she did the other day, its no exaggeration to say that your mission looks similar to joining the BNP on the basis of trying to do the same thing.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #12 on: October 12, 2011, 08:59:13 AM »
Daft question maybe, but I can understand police taking DNA, and if used properly could help no end with crime solving, but why should they keep that for three years?  and why does Labour think its a good idea to keep it for 6, sounds like a bit of tinkering for the sake of tinkering to me. Or are the police asking for the longer lenght of time, if so, why so?

ps, not that it worries me if they have mine and they can keep it for ever, so perhaps that's one way forward, them that don't care could let their DNA be on a register, and then, if a crime is committed, a process of elimination takes place, if it's not on that register, then it's in the part of the population who are not DNA'd!

Where you up by the town hall between 12noon  and 20 past yesterday Tobes?
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Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #13 on: October 12, 2011, 09:38:00 AM »
Harman comes up with the dangerous bag of bollocks

Bollocks are not safe anywhere near Harman, she thinks they are sexist and would like to legislate them out of existence, for now a blunt instrument will do.

That's the thing with the politics isn't it, if you express agreement with a policy, or even a band of policies, they immediately take it as read they have your vote and you support everything they blather on about. If you voted Labour you were in favour of ID cards, they ascibe the same behaviours to the electorate as their MP's exhibit, that's far too restrictive and unrepresentative.

Why can't we have pick and mix politics?
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Chris Watts

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #14 on: October 12, 2011, 09:39:35 AM »
You are genuinely one of those I respect Chris!!!
After laying myself bare to you last night it is good that you still respect me in the morning.  :o
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Offline Anne Snelgrove

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #15 on: October 12, 2011, 10:13:37 AM »
Glad to see I've started a healthy debate. Surely if you disagree with DNA being kept for 6 years you also disagree with it being kept at all? Otherwise what are your arguments for keeping it 3 years? If you are all true libertarians, i.e. anti id cards, anti DNA retention, anti 30+ day detention, you will surely not support the Tory/Lib Dem position on these as well?

Go on, make the argument instead of flinging insults!

 :fence:

Offline Muggins

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #16 on: October 12, 2011, 11:44:12 AM »
Careful, Anne, I never said I was against the keeping of DNA, I've already said they can mine and keep it for as long as they like.

I wanted to know (as I always do) that if a strange or unpopular decision is made, what prompted it?  There must have been a good reason at the time, so if you can hare that please do.

Then, being better informed, the majority might still not agree with the decisions but understand better why they were made. 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Mart

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #17 on: October 12, 2011, 02:12:26 PM »
You can have my DNA when I'm dead. If you pay for my funeral.

Or

You can buy it, then rent it, cash of course, no euros.

I don't think anyone would have difficulty with their DNA being held if it was an all in, or all out exercise with absolutely transparent legislation protecting it. I think alarm spreads because of successive Government's inability to prevent mission creep, and their willingness for the agencies to flog off citizens' data to turn a quick buck to any bugger who wants it. Apparently.

Mind you they don't have to flog it given the astonishing ability to lose things.

Some might say that the two are unconnected but I think a previous poster's remark about MP's showing us theirs if we donate ours has some real merit. A really transparent Government could at least advance the 'If you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear' argument with some authority. I still think the expenses debacle was buried with indecent haste and bent practices still occur, look at that Dr Fox bunging a couple of days of holiday onto official visits to spend some time with his mate, couple of days in the places he was staying could have paid heating bills for a year or two for 'ordinary' people. I wouldn't trust him with the bloody tea club money, which I will of course pay back at some point, let alone my DNA.

DNA is too important to entrust to Government, or any Government body. Everything it's given to do it breaks, fecks up or goes over budget. I'd probably trust Tesco though, or my milkman, he's very reliable.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Muggins

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #18 on: October 12, 2011, 05:17:03 PM »

Mart:  "You can have my DNA"

See what I did there, I ought to be a journalist.  ;D

I could get your DNA easy peasy, slip a packet of ear buds in me pocket, go down your allotment, hide behind the hedge until you've finished then get a sample off the lock to your shed.  Or if your car was in the car park, get sample off the car handle.

I can promise you I wouldn't lose it afterwards, but if I did I wouldn't have it any more would I.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: How Did Swindon's Two Conservative MPs Vote?
« Reply #19 on: October 12, 2011, 06:09:28 PM »
the reply from the lady from bassett says it all and surely you cant argue with that arguement, and I see Ms Cooper has been mentiond, wasnt she the lady person who thought up HIPS,,(her old man was one of the 'advisors' to Mr Brown), who brought out the 10p fiasco......