Author Topic: Trying to Understand the Riots - indymedia website and any Swindon relevant comments  (Read 16243 times)

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Offline Steve Wakefield

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Bob

I think you are referring to moi? Look back 100 years ago  Liberal politicians and Tories, Helped to create a situation during a very hot summer of discontent a riot situation. In the few years preceeding 1911 the value of wages dropped by 10% and hundred years ago this week the Railwaymen went on strike.

After several strikes during the summer in Liverpool of Dockers and Seamen the city faced 77,000 people on the streets. The Head Constable called in the RIC, Royal Irish Constabulary, why? Because, Liverpool was sectarian example Garston was Orange, Scotland rd Catholic. He also called in Birmingham Police, and Soldiers from, Yorkshire, Lancahire and Warwickshire.

Two armoured cruisers from the Royal Navy were in the Mersey with 7 & 9 inch guns ready. Serious disturbances took place and the Brummie police were seriously hurt as an example to teach them to stay out of Liverpool. The Yorkshire regiment bayonet charged the crowds and other troops opened fire killing two catholic dockers.

Eventually the bosses reinstated sacked workers and increased wages. Sadly almost 850 people died from illnesses  caused by uncollected rubbish and overflowing middens.

The riot and deaths brought the two sectarian sides together as brother workers became comrades.

My own experience: Day one in the police training centre (sausage machine) 52 entrants a week in and 48 constables a week out day one sworn in and sign for your warrant number it was mostly admin and familiarisation with the centre. Day two uniform fitting collection and how to wear it followed by rote learning of the primary objective  of an efficient police.  Day three was the story of Cold Bath Field 1833  it was about the death of PC Cully on what is now the site of Mount Pleasant Sorting Office.

The Met attacked a crowd of union people and PC culley was killed it was later found that he had been justifiably killed as the police used excessive force. The people involved were regarded as heroes and medals were struck to commemorate this victory.

This sobering thought on Day 3 brought home to me and others how delicate it is to police. PC Culley was the only Police Officer in the Met Killed in a riot in the 19th century and PC Blakelock was the only one killed in a riot situation in the 20th Century.

I do worry about the future when I see Cameron and Gove on TV upping the Anti, if it will in someway  lead to  a premeditated escalation of force being used at the first sign of a
gathering. But then I snap out of it and realise they are after all only politicians and not sworn officers:

Quote
I, ... of ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline Chav

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Extremely Non Believable Excuses Purveyance and Distribution Department please !
I shall book you in for an interview then   O0
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Ben Reid

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Steve I thought the riots were in 1909??

Or I'm getting confused again.....my history of swindon isn't particulary great or accurate at best, I seem to have missed a chunk from the medieval age to around about 2005

Although I do have some interesting history concerning my great grandfather.... Ill post it soon, I've got to write it down aswell before I forget.

Anyway back to the riots, I'm smug about swindon, well behaved, no trouble, no one starting fires, no rioting with the exception of one verbal rioter here......not going to point the finger at anyone.....Steve. (By the way this is a joke..just humour, see you can do that when your a left-wing libertarian, right wing fascists just ruin peoples futures and are all smug about it aswell)

There'll be a musical soon "Springtime For Cameron"....if you've seen 'The Producers'....the original 1968 Mel Brooks you'll see where the gags going....

Offline I Could Do That

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Extremely Non Believable Excuses Purveyance and Distribution Department please !



Hi 20  :crazy2:
Proud to be gone

Offline Ben Reid

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I don't think Bill is 20.....anyway it doesn't really matter, nor our business.

Where is 20? He has been quiet recently, probably got arrested in Marks and Spencers for 'breaching the peace and rioting' over the price of cheese and is getting charged and prosecuted by the man he just loves and adores Judge Douglas Field

Offline I Could Do That

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He's still rampant on the Adver site, trying to banish my pseudonym and dictate how all should vote  :idiot2:
Proud to be gone

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Ben

Strange you mention Swindon in respect of the 1911 riots, as they were brought to a conclusion by a railwayman who had lived in Salisbury St and was the first Labour Councillor on Swindon Corporation,he was also head of the railwayman's union and an MP.

Back to Gove and Cameron, the reason I think those 2 may be the bad cop of the Tory party there is also the good cop side, not all Tories are like Flashman.

For example Ken Clarke one of the last Tory Big Beasts from the 81 Thatcher rioting period. He is Justice Minister in the Tory led government. In 81 he, Heseltine, Willie Whitelaw and others were out in the riot areas meeting people and talking to them as a result the government rolled out a programme to assist  the areas. I note so far that little comment has come from Ken Clarke on this matter as Justice Minister.

There was also the Lord Scarman enquiry in which colleagues of mine gave evidence, as our Nick had been one of the first on scene to assist local officers. Yes dustbin lids and pegs that is all that  was available. I believe there were some Shields that had been purchased after the Notting hill Carnival Riot in the long hot summer of 1976. Also Met Officers had the hard police hat a traditional shaped hat made from plastic instead of cork with reinforced straps. that .

The attestation taking the Oath that I posted is not the one that I swore, mine would have contained the words without "favour or ill will". 

The Conservatives changed that from 1996 to include the words Basic Human Rights, which comforts me, that all Conservatives are not Flashman Cameron like characters.

 
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline Muggins

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"The Conservatives changed that from 1996 to include the words Basic Human Rights, which comforts me, that all Conservatives are not Flashman Cameron like characters"

I looked up Steve's 1996 and found this:

Also found something about Jack Straw, so have you got the date right Steve?
 

The notion of citizenship
Main article: Citizenship

In most democratic countries, the notion of citizenship (as opposed to that of nationality) recognises that a State owes to its people certain inalienable rights which are characterised as "fundamental" in the sense that they enjoy a specially protected status in domestic law. In return, it is accepted that the citizen is expected to meet certain standards and comply with certain requirements vis-à-vis the State.[3]

This concept of citizenship is unknown to English constitutional law which, under the influence of Burke, Bentham, Austin, Dicey and Jennings, has treated British citizens as "subjects of the Crown without the benefit of positive and fundamental constitutional rights giving protection against the state and its agents." The rights that are recognised - "the liberties of the subject" - are "residual and negative" in nature, i.e. the individual is free to do what he or she likes save insofar as the activity is restricted by the law.[4]

[edit] Relationship between citizen and stateThere is no constitutionally protected Bill of Rights or a written constitution, which, along similar lines to the United States Bill of Rights or the Declaration of the Rights of Man and Citizen, would define the relationship between the citizen and the State, including the rights owed by the State to the citizen and vice versa.

The basis of the relationship between State and citizen is instead constructed on a variety of statutory provisions and common law rules which, taken en masse, seek to confer on the citizen certain rights and liberties normally associated with citizenship, whilst also imposing certain duties. For example, the case of Entick v. Carrington in 1765 established the limits within which officers of the State could act, the Reform Act of 1867 accorded a wider right to vote, and the National Insurance Act 1911 instituted a basic welfare system. These rights apply regardless of the nationality of the individual in question.[4]

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Muggins

What date? and why do you think it is wrong? can I see the link re Jack Straw as I am not sure of your point?  :wink:

1996 Police act made major changes to the police John Major was Tory Prime Minister. In 2002 the 2002 police reform act superceded the 1996 act Labour added into it with Community support officers and non sworn officers. Added action plans, targets and inspections as well as complainst procedure IPCC Independent Police Complaints Commission.

The attestation as affirmed it
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  I, ... ... ... of ... ... ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve Our Sovereign Lady the Queen in the office of constable, without favour or affection, malice or ill will; and that I will to the best of my power cause the peace to be kept and preserved, and prevent all offences against the persons and properties of Her Majesty's subjects; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.


I must have been tired last night when I posted it, it was the 2002 act:

The 2002 attestation
Quote
I, ... ... ... of ... ... ... do solemnly and sincerely declare and affirm that I will well and truly serve the Queen in the office of constable, with fairness, integrity, diligence and impartiality, upholding fundamental human rights and according equal respect to all people; and that I will, to the best of my power, cause the peace to be kept and preserved and prevent all offences against people and property; and that while I continue to hold the said office I will to the best of my skill and knowledge discharge all the duties thereof faithfully according to law.

So I am feeling a little alarmed that it was not a Tory government that changed it. :-\

The reason given for the change from the 2002 act
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Every police officer and every special constable is required, on appointment, to be attested by making a declaration in a prescribed form before a justice of the peace in the force area concerned. The Police Advisory Board for England and Wales, on which all the main police organisations are represented, advised the Home Secretary in December 2000 that the wording of the attestation should be changed to make it clear that police officers had a duty to uphold the rights of and protect everyone living or staying in the country, not just Her Majesty’s subjects. The Home Secretary has accepted the advice of the Police Advisory Board.

No I am again less concerned as it was voted through parliament, but wait a minute David Cameron voted against it, as I understand they work for you.

So Cameron is a Flashman after all  :(

Now on to the next one

In 1909 the Liberal President of the Board of Trade was instrumental in delivering the People's Budget and introduced Labour Exchanges to make obtaining unemployment fairer and more equitable. It was the same Liberal President of the Board of trade that drew up the National Insurance Act to pay the unemployed the Tories fought it tooth and nail, but Winston Churchill would not give in, and niether would the Tory dominated House of Lords, which led to two elections in 1910.

Famous elections in that posters and hand bills were used extensivly to convey messages, Labour used one of workers smashing down the doors of the House of Lords with a steel girder. The Tories used the famous one of a Devil embracing a young maiden, the maiden was Britain and the devil Socialism.

Winston Churchill was returned and Labour had its first MPs Churchill was able to get his way and the 1911 National Insurance Act became Law to stop the Lords they brought in legislation the Parliament Act to give MPs primacy over Lords. 

The 1911 riots known locally in North West Folklore as the Great Transport Strike. This all started when in 1910 Churchill as Home Secretary had stopped troops and held them at Swindon from travelling to Wales to put down disturbances caused by miners agitatingin the Welsh coalfields. Churchill is still blamed for turning the troops on miners in Tonypandy, but actually he stopped them, it was a Journo headline in the Times  that is remembered and repeated and not the historical facts. Workers believed that Churchill shot the miners!

The reason so many troops were about in 1911 was that Churchill now the First Sea Lord of teh Admiralty was worried that there would be a war over the Agadir Moroccon crisis (Known as the Panthers Jump) as Britain was now in an entente with France. It was likely that Germany was going to go to war with France. Britain began to prepare for war in July 1911 and the troops were part of that preparation. It was a very hot "cold war" for most of the beginning of the 20th century with Germany.

Coming so soon after the Sydney street siege Britain was in a state of political paranoia. Winston Churchill as a Liberal, as ever used  this to his own political and personal advantage.

Before anyone asks have I got that one right, yes in my opinion Winston Churchill was a Liberal even when he was a Tory. Churchil was elected a Tory in 1900, but his party deselected him for voting against Military spending to spend it on social welfare. He became a liberal and stayed with them until 1924 when he was elected for Epping as a Constitutionalist and then joined the Conservatives.

Anyway Muggins and Ben keep em coming it proves that someone read TS as Cllrs Henan and Holland demonstrate by their long posts that TS is not only read by two blokes wearing flat caps with a whippett and a ferret in a shed in West Swindon.  ;D
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline Ben Reid

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Yup it is good to see other councillors engaging on TS a great deal of what they are talking about is going over my head but its worth a read anyway.

Anyway back to the riots, I was partially right it was the Tonypandy thing in 1909, something happened in swindon then I'm sure of it.....ill keep digging.

Offline Muggins

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Hi Steve, very interesting historical posts, I've not studied the events and I can't remember them being talked about and lets face it  I wasn't born for most of them.  As it is my way fo remembering whats happeneing (becasue I have much more important thigns to remember, that others don't or won't') is to try and remember what was happening when government edicts are put out.

i.e. thou shalt adopt the International Rights of the child statement/policy. Obviously adopted at all levels internationally and might be worth a glance to check if that has happened in Britain and Swindon.  That would be  88/91 I was working at the Penhill Neighbourhood Centre then, I took it to the managment commitee, they adopted it, I copied it on A3 paper and put it up in every room. Chances are we would not have got funding if we had not.

Equal Opportunties: About the same time, we all took the training  - good stuff - eye opening - blantantly told we would not get funding it we didn't.  Plagerised the British Waterways excellent equal opportunties statement - not so *brief as usual - gave it managment committee, they adopted it again on A3, stuck up in every room. That was the easy bit! * brief is not always better.

So I'm trying to place the bits of legislation that would have prompted the change to the police vow.  There must have been a Human Rights Bill.  Maybe I thought that by using the other bits of policy we were well on our way to being right to humans, or maybe we were not being funded so much by statutory agencies by then, but the lottery?

Then there were others Health and Safety  and Environmental things.



Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Menrva

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Council House evictions now taking place in Wandsworth, not sure if it is right or wrong, depends on the circumstances. Some individuals can be a constant problem for an area and their neighbours however this type of action can also lead to a displacement of the problem. If handled right it can help a neighbourhood and lead to change in individuals due to the consequences leading to new behaviour. There are many complexities surrounding council house evictions, for instance the parents may be in care in the property.

If a secondary action on top of court action is supported by the Prime Minister how is he going to ensure the same for Private Households?
I was wondering when someone would realise that it is only people in social housing that can be evicted for bad behaviour, that does seem like the ones that do not own their homes are the ones being punished yet again.This really will be a two tiered system.

Offline Chav

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I have just been catching up on Question time on BBC I player

http://www.bbc.co.uk/mobile/iplayer/episode/b013y4gm

Interesting debate re riots and policing on there   O0
"Politics is the skilled use of blunt objects." -- Lester B. Pearson.

Offline Muggins

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Council House evictions now taking place in Wandsworth, not sure if it is right or wrong, depends on the circumstances. Some individuals can be a constant problem for an area and their neighbours however this type of action can also lead to a displacement of the problem. If handled right it can help a neighbourhood and lead to change in individuals due to the consequences leading to new behaviour. There are many complexities surrounding council house evictions, for instance the parents may be in care in the property.

If a secondary action on top of court action is supported by the Prime Minister how is he going to ensure the same for Private Households?
I was wondering when someone would realise that it is only people in social housing that can be evicted for bad behaviour, that does seem like the ones that do not own their homes are the ones being punished yet again.This really will be a two tiered system.

Menvra: Don't think that the difference was not noticed and discussed prior to the legislation about that being brought in.  There are other things that can happen to owner occupiers as equal punishment. 

Eviction is not a first stage, it's the very last one, when all other ways have failed.  Having social housing is a priviledge, up to now it was the cheapest way to a home.  The council does not make them homeless, they do so by their own failure to engage at normal level and there is an whole tranch of things on offer to get them to do that voluntarily.
People from social housing estates were the people most likely to be complaining about anti social behaviour at a neighbourhood level - and I was one of them.

In other discussion about ASB on TS, you will see that some people think it is only a town centre, drunken lout thing, it is not. 

However I do agree with you about the two tier thing, if this is not handled carefully in the long run and with a bit more sensitivity,  I can see this escalating into a proper class war, I think we can all sesne that something is brewing!

People who do things wrong should be punished, but I don't see why I and my neighbours should have to pay too - and I don't mean with money.

The threat of losing their home is usually enough to get them to wake up and wind their necks in, but some will go the extra mile, daring the authorities to act, seeing how far they can take it. The threat of not being rehoused and going into expensive rental etc. etc  the idea is to stop/change the behaviour not just chuck 'em out.

I am pretty sure that those that have been evicted after the riots will have been well known and on their last chances anyway.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Mart

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Years ago, maybe here, I rambled on trying to flog the idea that more freedom led to less freedom because a minority of too many feckin idiots will screw it up and there will be a backlash.

I'm unashamedly in the skull cracking, baton round and water cannon with acceptable levels of collateral damage mob. The only proviso being that there is a clearly defined set of easily understood criteria and when they are reached the leash comes off, equally there needs to be similarly easily grasped criteria for the beast to be put back in the cage. But there needs to be a beast, lurking.

Kids, and a surprisingly large number of adults, need to understand that society actually owes you something very close to sweet feck all. That does not mean it has to lack compassion or that it will simply discard those less able, fortunate or system savvy. It means that there is a limit to what is a reasonable degree of support for those who require societies support. Should Home Support be cut if a jobless household has enough income to dress in designer sports gear, smoke, drink and watch a flatscreen TV?

I suppose the problem is not so much the perceived heirarchy between jobs and who is more worthy of whatever level of fiscal remuneration, but perhaps it is the perception that the jobless can somehow be perceived as more deserving, if you work you need nothing, if you don't, you are somehow owed. Is a jobless yoof worthy of more, or less support than a pensioner. If the over 65's lobbed bricks and burned stuff would they get a skatepark? Vexing question, is it a case of the squeaky wheel getting all the oil?

In a well balanced society that would not necessarily be an issue, we'd all be too busy working to worry about grown up stuff like that.

The Tories and Labour have been building a bonfire for years out of things they never troubled to ask us if we valued, just so long as it pissed the other lot off it had to be right, and now the latest unholy alliance has flicked a fag end into the tinder dry mess.

The police have been turned from a large but outwardly friendly dog with a faint whiff of violence into an emasculated lapdog capable of dealing with a heckling pensioner and filling hours of TV with inconsequential car chases, but not much else. That is because they became answerable to too many disparate masters and were led by clowns who claimed that this could actually be done.

What is clear is that the current political muppets remain convinced that solution by soundbite is the answer, I presume they'll be claiming their holidays back?

On expenses.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Muggins

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"Should Home Support be cut if a jobless household has enough income to dress in designer sports gear, smoke, drink and watch a flatscreen TV?"

I suspect that most of those things are not purchased with income support etc. but by ill gotten gains.  Or of course, kind, better off relations!

"If the over 65's lobbed bricks and burned stuff would they get a skatepark?" 

No, but they might get a few extra dropped kerbs. I'll take a brick out with me today.

A lot of what you say, as usual makes a lot of sense, Mart.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Karsten

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And it would help no end Bob, if they could get a number other than that 0845 number, one that takes you immediately to a human being!

That's of course if it is secondary importance to 999 - but it so often is.

If I remember right you can call the devises Police HQ and be put through to local police in Swindon without calling an O845 number think its 01793..

Then you also have the local police teams.
If you contact the local policing team for some reason (eg. ASBO family moving into area) they will come round and chat.  They give out their private mobile Telephone number to people with issues.
Their bosses are so cheap though, that the local plods have to bear the cost of the mobile no. them selves.

As for the 0845 numbers, it is stupid that the police say they want a closer relationship with the community and then charge people to contact them.
It is the same with all government offices.
The Inland Revenue got paid £1mill for their 0845 number!

Police need to be more contactable not less.

These riots were organised. Not by the illiterate yobs that looted but by older anarchists out to just cause trouble.
Sheep herding the daft 'Yardie slang speaking yuths' to areas/shops they picked out at random.
Bet they didn't even leave home just using BB chat and Google while watching it all on the news.

Gather two people have been charged with inciting violence using online media in Chester.
Would like to hear more about their back ground and reasons.

Offline Muggins

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I was going to say that I am well known to our local policing team, but you might take that the wrong way!

We were being promised a better way than the 0845 number and that should have been be in place well before now.

I know that you can discover the proper number - which would probably start 01380!!!    But it's not just about me and my convenience, it's about everyone having a sensible number and having a sensible set up at the other end - i.e. not having to listen to goodness knows how many 'press 1 if's'   and then not having a ten minute wait once you do get through to a human being who transfers you somewhere else, by which time you've lost the will to live let alone the will to help. 

The communications strategy of the Police is useless, even with emails.
whe they say in public meetings "Please contact us"  there is always graons and splutters to follow. 

We are willing to help, willing to report crime but it's got to be made easier.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Mart

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Get a crowd of about 6 people.

Congregate outside Westminster or any of it's satellite stations.

Persistently mutter 'Insert name of leader is a nob'.

Presto, police contact.

Ring the police and claim you are about to shoot a seagull with the 14 inch naval gun that Grandad brought home from the war.

Presto, police contact.

Locate a person of non WASP appearance, call them a bad name that can be construed as being non complimentary to their racial origin.

You'll get quite a lot of police then.

Wear some jeans that display the crack of your arse, a sweatshirt with a hood, drink a half bottle of vodka. Go and make a feckin nuisance of yourself adjacent to your neighbours front garden. Wait until said neighbour reaches the brink of insanity and dings you one.

Police arrive to arrest neighbour, politely mention the issue you wanted to see them about.

Leave your front door open until a burglar arrives. Ding him one, let him call the police on your mobile he's just nicked.

Presto, police contact.

All a bit cynical and I suspect they'll be a bit more attentive at the moment, well, until the overtime budget gives out.

I don't really blame them though when all is said and done.

Who do you fancy for the Met job by the way, I reckon Orde.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Terry Reynolds

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I know this is nothing to do with the riots etc, but gives an example of how the police work, when there is a repatriation, there is a crowd of us who go to the police station at Gablecross, with our standards etc and pay our respects, we have been doing this now for nearly two years and next week it will end and they will go through the back gate of Brize Norton.  two weeks ago when we went to go up to the police canteen, where we meet the next police crews who take the hearse etc up to Oxford, when they go out to their cars and bikes, then it is time for us to go out also and stand at the kerbside.  When we went to go into the police sation two weeks ago, a man who we hadnt seen before came out in uniform, a high ranker, and told us it was a police sation and not a canteen and we were barred from going up to the canteen, this after nearly two years, and it is now all but ended, some respect they have for us and what we were doing.. :bash: