Author Topic: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics  (Read 43526 times)

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Offline Tobes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #40 on: April 21, 2011, 06:21:23 PM »
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Now Tobes I believe in the Candidate Locally not the party they represent

So do I. But then you and I BOTH must be at odds with what Chris believes then: Not only has he decided to ally with a national party of questionable morality (a difficult choice most local aspirants face, I guess), but that self-same national party has sent their most senior figure, no less a figure than the SHADOW LEADER to 'help' his campaign!!! What other sane conclusion can any voter draw? If Chris is really solely about local issues, then Milliband's presence would be an irrelevance and he would not have chosen to spent time together door knocking, would he?!

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surely you would not condemn him for anything Milliband did or did not do nationally

Only if he used (and allowed himself to be used by) Milliband for local publicity. Which he has. So yes. I'm afraid I do. No one can preach localism and then ignore a candidate cosying up to one of the highest profile national politicians in the country and pretend that the perception in the minds of the voter will remain separate!

If you ally yourself with a party - and then choose to appear and go campaigning with a national leader who helped devise certain policies, no one can draw any other conclusion as to his support of the man and his policies, can they?  I mean, seriously!

The illiberal policies of what Labour tried to do are an indelible stain. Ed Milliband supported and voted for them. Chris is openly and publicly associating himself with that man and therefore, by association, his beliefs. That man is now supporting Chris and Chris is accepting that support. People will (and should) judge that for what it says.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Drone

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #41 on: April 21, 2011, 06:32:25 PM »
Can we hold Icky Sewell responsible for the actions of Nick Clegg, then?
derp derp herp herp derp

Offline Tobes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #42 on: April 21, 2011, 06:48:21 PM »
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Can we hold Icky Sewell responsible for the actions of Nick Clegg, then?

If she's been out door knocking with him and putting pictures of her and him up on her blog, you'd be perfectly - and obviously - entitled to draw the conclusion that she was associating herself with the man and his policies, would you not? (why else would she be doing it?)

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #43 on: April 21, 2011, 08:18:43 PM »
In the interests of balance, for all the criticism of the Libs, who's this walking with Ed Milliband?



Yes - the same Ed Milliband who consistently voted for ID cards and 90 day detention without trial. The same Ed Milliband supports the retention of DNA profiles of people who were arrested but not convicted of a crime.

Personally, I'd question voting for a man prepared to accept political assistance from a totalitarian.

Eascott voters are proud to be tolerant, libertarian and liberal with a small 'L'. Labour demonstrated that they were anything but. I think it would be fair to question the political outlook of anyone who would choose to ally with them, let alone be seen with such a high profile supporter of some of the most pernicious social policies of recent history.
 :embarassed:


Good post, Tobes. Points well made. Tolerance and liberalism seems in short supply these days.
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #44 on: April 21, 2011, 09:05:23 PM »
I believe that up until Wi-fi that Chris was like me, just a member of the public.

We both asked questions to which answers were not forthcoming and so spoke to the then MP Anne Snelgrove who listened to these concerns.  I, incidentally, saw Anne before Chris.  Many people in this Swindon believe, because of past actions,I am a Tory.  Yes, I was a lifelong Conservative, but purely on the basis on which they have behaved on Wi-fi and other money wasting issues I no longer support them. 

Chris, I believe like me felt that his concerns meant something and to which answers should be given.  For my part whilst I am truly independent of mind I must admit that I find the Labour Party attitude quite refreshing.  You are allowed to dissent and are not blackballed just because you disagree with them.  You just have to look at what has happened to disaffected Tories to see what they can be like.  This greatly troubles me because at the end of the day we all are a group of individuals who want the best for themselves their families, their roads, their area their town and their country.  It is called aspiration.

I truly think, although stand to be corrected, that Chris found in the Labour Party people who would actually listen, care what he thought and were prepared to help him achieve his aspirations.

The Labour Party happens to be led by Ed Milliband.  So what, I know die in the wool Labour people who would like to impeach and prosecute Tony Blair.  It doesn't mean that all Labour people are guilty by association, does it?

At the end of the day in a politician there is no ideal candidate they are all flawed in some way or another so you must cast your vote on what you perceive as the 'Lesser of the Evils.'  Not to vote or saying you are 'Not interested' means you have absolutely no right to complain when things, in your opinion, go wrong.

And finally I am not a member of the Labour Party Vera, although like Steve Wakefield feel that the Tories left me not the other way around.
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #45 on: April 21, 2011, 09:40:53 PM »
Richard

Sorry if it sounds a bit Mc Carthay

Have you ever been a member of the Labour Party?

Who is Vera?  Is she a member of the Labour party? 
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #46 on: April 21, 2011, 10:31:16 PM »
I agree with pretty much everything you say, up to a point. But I'd be aware and beware that Chris risks being manipulated by a party which has lost any meaningful compass except a hunger to regain lost power (and as a result, any real differentiator between itself and the others - other than to do the obvious and hypocritical sniping regarding the cuts which any party in opposition would do ).

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The Labour Party happens to be led by Ed Milliband.  So what, I know die in the wool Labour people who would like to impeach and prosecute Tony Blair.  It doesn't mean that all Labour people are guilty by association, does it?

No. But Milliband is not some snot nosed new MP - or a minor party figure. So what? He is the man who wrote their 2010 manifesto. He is a man who voted consistently in favour of carrying forward the party's most pernicious policies and was a leading cabinet member from 2007.

Snelgrove was almost universally perceived round these parts as a completely f*cking useless MP until she picked up on WiFi and became an ally to those pursuing the SBC tories. Now as 'welcome' as her self-serving attention might have turned out to be (though really, WAS it in the final analysis?) her stumblingly inarticulate performance in the commons to an audience half a dozen disinterested MPs looked pretty dire to me. Surely we can't have forgotten that she did it off the back of totally ignoring important and valid concerns from her constituents regarding a whole host of other issues? Her vapid responses up until she latched onto WiFi were curt, frequently bordered on rude and eventually became non-existent. That was the period when this forum was dismissed as 'a hotbed of tory activists'. (20 Eyes, you reading this?) Funny how short memories are!

Snelgrove 'listened' selectively and toed the party line like a good political careerist. That doesn't demonstrate an MP or a party political philosophy to be endorsed - it shows naked expedience. Instead of defending her own party's discredited polices or (heaven forfend) engaging with her electorate and maybe even seeking to change party policy, she stuck her head in the sand until gifted with something to attack the opposition. Too little, too incompetently handled, too late. Swindon rightly gave her the boot.

I can understand malcontent with the local tory group as a motivation to stand - but the problems we have with them that we can influence at council level are local too - that makes such an overt and public association with a national Labour party figure all the more tainting. What Milliband and his brethren tried to do in their last parliament was deeply, deeply unethical and morally reprehensible. We're not talking about a mere hiccup or an individual mistake of judgement - we're talking about a deep-seated philosophical contempt for the freedoms of this country's citizens. Personally, I don't draw any distinction between what nearly came to pass  on ID cards, NIR, 90 day detention and the DNA database and the mindset which put the Nazi party into power. Consequently, I find myself having a similar reaction to Chris's public and publicised hob-nobbing with Milliband as I would if Nicky Sewell had blogged about door-stepping round Eastcott with Vidkun Quisling.

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Chris found in the Labour Party people who would actually listen, care what he thought and were prepared to help him achieve his aspirations.

And why do we think that is?! The Labour party 'are listening' (today, at least) because they think that through WiFi, they have a local candidate in Chris who might have the ammo to hurt the tories and because of dissatisfaction at the national level, the potential opportunity to unseat the Libs . But by choosing to put him alongside Milliband they have deliberately sought focus attention away from local issues and the performance of the local candidates - it reads to an old PR like me as an overt and deliberate move designed to get people to vote according to national disillusionment.

I suspect a party as bankrupt of support as post-election Labour would take and encourage whatever interest they could get - and flatter those offering it as far as they could. But it is still the same party. No doubt Chris is starting on the same path as many other well meaning politicians. However, when you sup with the Devil, it is best you use a long spoon rather than tour your ward with him, lest people get a whiff of sulphur.

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At the end of the day in a politician there is no ideal candidate they are all flawed in some way or another so you must cast your vote on what you perceive as the 'Lesser of the Evils.'

That I can handle as a concept but with an important proviso - it would be acceptable if you were talking about the individual politician acting independently. But after having witnessed the corrupting and warping influence of party loyalty over what the individual believes is best for his/her electorate, I cannot.

For example, if you gave me a choice between voting for a communist party, or the BNP, I'd abstain and seek to create a change by influencing public opinion and encourage a reasonable candidate to stand. Voting for 'the lesser of those two evils would legitimise a far greater evil by giving the winner a false mandate.

Chris might seem more credible if people could believe that despite his party rosette, he was still his own man. However, his endorsement by the absolute head of the Labour party will hardly make that seem credible, will it?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Mellon

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #47 on: April 21, 2011, 10:37:52 PM »
Interesting post, we shall find out in May. O0
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #48 on: April 21, 2011, 11:17:57 PM »
Mellon

I like the new avatar  :o
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #49 on: April 21, 2011, 11:25:10 PM »
Richard

Sorry if it sounds a bit Mc Carthay

Have you ever been a member of the Labour Party?

Who is Vera?  Is she a member of the Labour party?

No I am not a Labour Party Member

and Vera is the one and only Vera Tomlinson, who I believe in a former life was a member of the Labour Party
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Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #50 on: April 21, 2011, 11:32:42 PM »
Tobes, I believe that Chris Watts to be a man of principle and individuality.  You can hardly say that of the Tories, gathering as they do before every meeting and being whipped by our Vera to toe the line.

And so you either want more of the same in Stan oh so cuddly Pajak and co or you do actually want to try something different.

If I am wrong about Chris Watts and I fervently believe I am not you can always remove him in twelve months time.

A vote for the Liberals is one for more of the same Tories and I am sure you don't want that or do you?
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Offline Tobes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #51 on: April 22, 2011, 02:43:16 AM »
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And so you either want more of the same in Stan oh so cuddly Pajak and co or you do actually want to try something different.

I've already criticised the Libs  :wink: - so I'm not naive about their failings - but that said, name me a meaningful difference in policy? I couldn't spot one on Chris's manifesto. Again, the real decider is likely to be how people turn national disillusionment into local votes. Labour have obviously realised this - and it's why they trotted out Milliband. However, that's a slight of hand which may prove counter productive in a ward where people might be sophisticated enough to vote according to local issues - and where people have no particular reason to reject Nicky (it's she who's standing remember, NOT Stan).

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A vote for the Liberals is one for more of the same Tories and I am sure you don't want that or do you?

Pfffft. If I had been given the chance to stand as a candidate for the Libs - I would have been at pains to use the council chamber to be a lot more combative in order to expose them to proper scrutiny on the public record and subject them to some proper criticism.  I think I would have been pretty bloody good at it too :( . Ho hum

But before we carry on shoe-ing the Libs, lets not forget that Labour are still dominated by the less than eloquent likes of Small and Monty - who also happen to be senior members of the party. Neither can have been judged to be effective scrutineers or challengers of the ruling party either. And recent history also shows that, at a local level, Labour were capable of making a financial and strategic balls up which somehow still manages to exceed even the worst excesses of the current incumbents!

I'd like to see tory complacency and the 'boys club' of the cabinet reigned in (and a few of the old school pin stripers and farts fall on their swords). An elected Mayor might actually save them from their inevitable doom, if only they were intelligent enough to realise it. No way would I like to see a Labour majority until the party has worked out what its philosophy or message is aside from a trite 'cuts are bad and we'll try and gloss over what the party tried to do over the last 12 years'. I also suspect that whatever new blood they brought in would soon be subsumed by the party system and the self interest and cliquiness which always seems to follow.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Ringer

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #52 on: April 22, 2011, 08:11:04 AM »
Vote according to local issues in a local election I wonder if  the Ukippers are listening?

In the April 18th leaflet in TS library from Eastcott. From memory I recall that there are 13 photographs the candidate appears in 7 and Stan appears in 6 of those 7 with the candidate. I think by my reckoning the old 8 out of 10 cats rule applies. Anyone care to do the percentages?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #53 on: April 22, 2011, 08:21:11 AM »
(20 Eyes, you reading this?)

Yes. Your last few posts on this thread have been nothing short of brilliant. Whether or not you'll read this is another question entirely.
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Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #54 on: April 22, 2011, 09:06:58 AM »
Hi Tobes. How was America?

"But before we carry on shoe-ing the Libs, lets not forget that Labour are still dominated by the less than eloquent likes of Small and Monty - who also happen to be senior members of the party. Neither can have been judged to be effective scrutineers or challengers of the ruling party either. And recent history also shows that, at a local level, Labour were capable of making a financial and strategic balls up which somehow still manages to exceed even the worst excesses of the current incumbents!"

Have to agree with your points, about Monty and Small. I regard them as no more than "Punch & Judy" politicians.
At present I am content with the way Bob Wright has represented us, but do not wish to vote for Monty.
We are yet to recieve any info on the LibDem Central candidate.
What happens to Bob if I don't vote Labour / Monty ?
Proud to be gone

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #55 on: April 22, 2011, 09:31:23 AM »
I believe that the above postings prove that Confidence in an Individual in Local Politics is far more important than any national party to which the candidate happens to belong.

As an intelligent man, Tobes, who has been critical of the people representing his core beliefs why not try someone else in the form of Chris Watts.  To vote Icky just because she is a liberal make you the very thing of which you are so critical?

You can always throw out Chris in twelve months time if he doesn't deliver or do you want to keep moaning about your erstwhile friends, the Liberals, who talk about everything but from where I am sitting actually achieve little.

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Offline Tobes

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #56 on: April 23, 2011, 11:18:54 AM »
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Tobes, I believe that Chris Watts to be a man of principle and individuality.

Having now had the chance to meet and share a pint or two with the man - I have to agree with you. It's just a huge shame he decided to hang his coat on the Labour peg.

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To vote Icky just because she is a liberal make you the very thing of which you are so critical?

I don't think I've stated anywhere yet where my vote is going, have I?  :wink: That said, even though we are talking about local issues, I still have a problem with a party which tried to destroy core civil liberties. Don't you?

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do you want to keep moaning about your erstwhile friends, the Liberals, who talk about everything but from where I am sitting actually achieve little.

I generally try to leave the partisan moaning to the more qualified personnel on the TS rosta of political sock-puppets. It leaves me free to criticise any party and any politico when and where I think its deserved.  Dave in particular has been a good local councillor. Stan appears to have done little recently, Martin is stepping down, Harrison - well, we all know about him, don't we!? - and Nicky is an unknown quantity (though has a profile locally). As most of the voters won't ever see this thread, they are also likely to take many of the disputed aspects of the leaflet at face value.

I suspect Labour gave Chris this seat imagining that he'd be little more than a paper candidate. A good close fight would be good for the ward. If Chris wins and goes on to prove himself a man of principal and individuality, the party might have cause to later regret their choice, eh?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat tan Pajak Plays Bleating Politics
« Reply #57 on: April 27, 2011, 06:39:35 AM »
Has anyone got a copy of the latest missive from the Eastcott Icky Sewell who is bleating that if she does not join the  focus team it will be broken up by a candidate who you only ever see at election time.. is that Artin Wiltshire? Ave Wood will be really lost if Icky is not elected he will have to knock around with Ndy and Rev.

I have not got a copy, but it was all the talk in the chippy as  supper was being cooked.

It is bad form for an Andidate  to beg for votes and the Ibdems are stooping reaching the levels of every time you vote Tory an Itten dies

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #58 on: April 27, 2011, 10:14:42 AM »
I spent some time yesterday afternoon seeing some elderly ladies in Eastcott and was surprised what a difference a few weeks makes.

That awfully nice Councillor Pajak seems to have overdone it a bit with no less than three letters through the door.  What did you do with them I enquired?  They went straight in the bin was the answer. 

The Kingshill crossing is the issue and they now believe the Liberals have not being doing anything about it but at least Chris Watts is trying to do so.  The damage is done and it now doesn't matter how many focus' the Liberals produce they have actually lost credibility, because it is now appreciated that talk does not equal deeds.

Keep up the good work Chris you can make a difference and there should be more people standing who are like you.
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Offline Mart

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Re: Eastcott Ward - Swindon Lib Democrat Pajak Plays Pinnochio Politics
« Reply #59 on: April 27, 2011, 07:55:32 PM »
In the interests of balance, for all the criticism of the Libs, who's this walking with Ed Milliband?

Hich ne s Illiband?

Every time I see Icky in print in makes me giggle like a girly, Iinger's last post made I larf!

Perhaps Hris is a master manipulator and is cynically using D for his own ends and those of his prospective ward, it'd would be a pragmatic move until he was rumbled, he could them move on to Ave or Ick.

Giggling again.
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