Author Topic: 10 Census Lies  (Read 5098 times)

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Offline Margie

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10 Census Lies
« on: February 26, 2011, 10:11:26 AM »
Email from James Baker of NO2ID:

10 Census Lies
The propaganda push for the 2011 census has begun. NO2ID opposes this census because it represents the worst features of database state, the insatiable desire for ever more information, and the presumption that official purposes override privacy.
Here are the ten worst lies you will be told in the coming weeks:

1. The Census is essential for government and business planning

On the contrary, it is worse than useless because it is expensive, inaccurate, and quickly out of date.

2. Our Census data is trusted and respected worldwide

Even if this was true, should we care? Most countries do have some sort of census, but would being respected at doing something essentially useless be worth more than £300 million.

3. It's a great source for genealogy       

100 or 200 years ago there was little record of most people's lives, and old censuses may be the only documents available. It is ludicrous to assume the same will apply in 100 years time, and outrageous to suggest it justifies spending public money.

4. It's 'good for employment', it provides jobs.

Temporary ones, yet the money spent would otherwise be spent on something — probably something useful involving permanent jobs.

5. Census data is confidential for 100 years.

Not any more. Census forms are kept from the public for 100 years. But EU legislation allows the 2011 census to be shared with all 27 member states, and the Statistics and Registration Service Act 2007 created powers to share the information with public bodies, and "approved researchers".

6. The census results in high-quality information.

No one knows how many people lie in their return. The 2001 census is generally believed to have 'missed' around 900,000 men under 40.

7. Everyone should be proud of playing their part in the census.

There is no reason to be proud of being tallied like cattle. There is every reason to oppose the waste and the intrusion. There is a long history of public resentment of the census.
In the 1800s census officers had to be given police protection; in 1911 the suffragettes boycotted it in protest; and in the 50s TV publicity told people it wasn't "another bit of snooping"

8. Communities can use census statistics to help gain recognition.

Whether a group is "officially recognised" is a political decision, not the same as individuals being located and categorised. 390,127 people recorded their religion as Jedi in 2001; they have yet to be officially recognised. More seriously, the Board of Deputies says the census underestimates British Jews, precisely because some of that community are nervous of officials knowing where they live.

9. Completing the census is straightforward, convenient and secure.

New questions are more intrusive than ever before, requiring details of employer's addresses, the details of any visitors to your house, and where they usually live. This is a direct danger to people who have sensitive occupations. The online version is a perfect cover for phishing attacks.

10. Your personal information is protected

Security is only as good as the shortest route to breaking it. Thousands of people will be involved, large commercial contractors and government agencies will process it, and the law newly provides that the data may be accessed for a variety of reasons, not just for making a statistical summary.
It cannot be guaranteed there won't be a security breach, or that data once captured will be used legitimately.

They cannot protect it; they shouldn't collect it.




Offline Tobes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2011, 11:40:38 AM »
Actually Margie, after all my years as a fervent and passionate supporter of No2ID, if this is the official line, I must reject this policy/argument.

A cencus is not a de facto bad thing. Sandi Toksvig on the radio said sarcastic in reaction to a quote from 'Big Brother Watch' regarding the cencus when they claimed that the govt had 'no need and no right' to ask for cencus info. I thought her sarcastic response was very apposite:

Quote
'Indeed. How can it possibly help the government to know the size of the population and what social problems need to be addressed'?

Thats it in a nutshell for me. If No2ID is now scratching around for new causes to keep going, it had better come up with some better ones if it wants to keep me as a supporter. It should be campaigning to ensure that the 100 years data security rule is maintained on the data, that detailed data is kept secure, and that detailed data isn't shared with the rest of the EU or sold off to commercial concerns. It also ought to be keeping a cap on the level of detail and scrutinising the type of data being collected to ensure its fit for purpose. It shouldn't be wasting time releasing propaganda lists of unchallenged reasons which will end up being forwarded by the likes of Rob Magic.

The statement that 'they shouldn't collect it' is glib simplicity and highly questionable. It moves what were eminently sensible concerns regarding the NIR and ID cards into the realms of unsubstantiated paranoia.

Sorry James Barker - you need to think again or lose another supporter.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Ringer

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2011, 12:20:34 PM »
'Indeed. How can it possibly help the government to know the size of the population and what social problems need to be addressed'?

Tobes is correct about Tokvigs comments its is by planning services based upon data from the census, which is far more factual for example how many surveys do we get that ask us how much we earn? How many fill them in truthfully? When you apply for a loan how much do you actually tell them? The census checks data aginst other data sources.

As no one knows how many people lie on their return how did we know it is 900,000 men under 40?

If you do not complete one you can be fined up to £1000,00 pounds.
To qualify for inclusion there is only one rule - something described must have been said to have happened. `If the facts don`t fit the legend, print

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #3 on: March 10, 2011, 01:40:04 PM »
Just completed my census form online.

Can't see what all the fuss is about. It barely asks anything of any real note and doesn't impact on privacy as far as I can see.

Looking forward to the national results being published. I think there may be some interesting revelations.

Only things that didn't make much sense were that the form was addressed to 'The Occupier', which means I'm unsure as to which individual they would go about fining if the form was not returned. Also, it says that the form should be completed on (or soon after) a certain date, but doesn't seem to say how long you have in which to complete it.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Karsten

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #4 on: March 11, 2011, 12:57:11 AM »
Just completed mine online. :banana:
Easy peasy..Simples! It does take 10mins but like the prev poster, I am interested in the results. ::)
I think people will see an increase in non whites and non european and perhaps lot fewer Jedi's  :(

I was a bit disappointed that they had not added JEDI as an option.  There were over 500k Jedi's last time.
If there is an increase tho, then it proves the force is strong.    :coolsmiley:


robert feal-martinez

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #5 on: March 11, 2011, 08:43:14 AM »
Does anyone believe the multiple occupancies will fill their form in honestly, or even at all :wakeup: :wakeup: :wakeup:

Offline Muggins

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #6 on: March 11, 2011, 09:43:35 AM »
I think you will find that it is a legal requirement that it is filled in.

Why be so stupid as to not be honest?  Groups of us work off the demographics it provides to see what services are required, government grants to local authorities use it's figures. They can tell for instance what percentage of age groups etc.

At present we have to work off the 2001 census figures and before that the 1999 and so on,  believe me we need a new set, we can see with our own eyes that 'times have changed'

But don't hold your breath waiting for those results though, it take a couple of years to get them together and publish them and then thats only the 'numbers of' all the rest is confidential for how ever many years.

I wonder why it can be filled online already, as it is supposed to provide a snapshot of who is where on the 27th March?
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #7 on: March 11, 2011, 09:51:52 AM »
I shall complete mine online this time and appearing in my 6th Census I hope it will be as useful to future generations as the Census results since 1801 have proved recently to me in family research?

I think it is a subject I will be blogging on. 10 Census lies are they the same 10 from the early 19th Century? Or same as the ones I remember for the 1971 Census? and the 1981 and the 1991 and 2001 and oh yes the 2011?  >:D

As for spending the money make sure the planning is done now so that the 2021 Census is only completed  online or via mobile phones. I can hear the Chav  :clap: that one now!  O0
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #8 on: March 11, 2011, 10:12:41 AM »
I think you will find that it is a legal requirement that it is filled in.

Why be so stupid as to not be honest?

Mugs, to your credit, that's the attitude of an honest person with nothing to hide. I share your view, I answered my form openly and honestly - had no reason not to.

Unfortunately, as Bob alludes, there are a significant number of people for whom responding to the Census honestly would potentially be very unwise. These are the same people who are likely to decide to lie, rather than chance the fact that the responses are supposed to be confidential.

For example, if you were the legal head of a house that contained four illegal immigrants (who, by definition, 'aren't here') why would you risk noting them on your Census form? Same with people who claim the 25% Council Tax discount but actually have more than one member in their household,  they'll probably figure it's more sensible to lie (given that they're already happy to lie about such things and commit fraud, why would they suddenly feel compelled to be honest?)

From what I remember of the form, it doesn't actually say there are penalties for respondees who are found to be lying. Indeed, given that the forms are confidential for 100 years, I'm not even sure if any checks to verify responses are even made.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tobes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #9 on: March 11, 2011, 10:16:38 AM »
Jesus - No2ID have misjudged the views of their natural supporters on this one then, eh? I hope they take notice, as there are more important issues which require their scrutiny. Ruining their credibility by sounding like Rob Magic-esque paranoids over the cencus won't do them any future favours  :(
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #10 on: March 11, 2011, 10:37:24 AM »
Jesus - No2ID have misjudged the views of their natural supporters on this one then, eh?

It would seem so.

I was 100%, wholly opposed to the ID Card idea (still reeling at how much of our money was utterly wasted on that) and yet I absolutely support the census concept and hope (although I know many won't) that people will complete it honestly.

The two things are mutually exclusive, to my mind. One is pointless, unworkable and needless. The other is sensible, useful and is data that is desperately needed for any government to function better.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Margie

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #11 on: March 11, 2011, 10:40:21 AM »
No2ID have misjudged the views of their natural supporters on this one then, eh?

I think you may be right.

I haven't received my form yet but I understand that some questions have to be answered and others are by choice only - is that right?  Which makes it sound not particularly more intrusive than previous censuses, unless I'm missing something.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #12 on: March 11, 2011, 10:59:24 AM »
Which makes it sound not particularly more intrusive than previous censuses, unless I'm missing something.

There was nothing in it that any remotely sane person would/could object to responding to honestly.

It basically asks your ethnicity, religion, whether/where you work and basic stuff such as DOB and if anyone's staying at the property on a given date.

It's all so banal I can't see why anyone would get up tight about it. Unless, of course, they're doing things they know shouldn't be doing.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tobes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #13 on: March 13, 2011, 01:14:19 AM »
Where I think they're right is to demand scrutiny on the security of the information and to ensure that its not sold on to third parties - but that's a completely different issue to not having a census at all.

However, it sounds like they're grabbing at issues in order to have some sort of agenda to continue in existence now that ID cards are dead. They'd be well advised to chose them clearly and carefully. It would be a terrible shame if they undid all of that hard campaigning work on the really important issues  :-\ .
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #14 on: March 13, 2011, 11:23:23 PM »
However, it sounds like they're grabbing at issues in order to have some sort of agenda to continue in existence now that ID cards are dead. They'd be well advised to chose them clearly and carefully. It would be a terrible shame if they undid all of that hard campaigning work on the really important issues  :-\ .


Speaking as someone who has had several disagreements with Guy Herbert about various 'issues', my direct involvement with the campaign leadership finished when NO2ID became NO2ID Ltd.

At that point I believe it became more of a lobbying business looking for causes to champion.  These days I prefer to support Liberty.

I don't have a problem with this census and, despite Guy Herberts earlier dire warnings, it doesn't contain any questions I find particularly objectionable but it does contain requests for information which seem reasonable and benign and pretty much along the lines of stuff a government needs to know if it is have any chance of governing in a coherent way.

Offline Tobes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #15 on: March 14, 2011, 12:14:12 AM »
Quote
when NO2ID became NO2ID Ltd
:WTF:

OMG - please explain!
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #16 on: March 14, 2011, 12:33:54 AM »

http://wck2.companieshouse.gov.uk/200b61f1743444f85a6268c870a110fb/compdetails


There has also been a full-on and quite bitter internal wrangle about how 'democrat' the organisation should be.  It turns it it isn't. But I already knew that.  :)


Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #17 on: March 14, 2011, 12:40:26 AM »

Oh yes, nearly forgot. The point at which I decided to say Au Revoire came when I was told that NO2ID co-ordinators had to push, push, push for donations and membership sign-ups, and become fully paid-up members of the organisation themselves.

I don't honestly know whether they pushed forward with that particular agenda, but by then I decided I'd already 'donated' more dropped shifts than I could sensible afford and wandered off.

I'm not in any way trying to derogate the many thousands of genuine activist that do sterling work on behalf of all of us, but the 'management' isn't what it seems.

Offline Tobes

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #18 on: March 14, 2011, 12:57:06 AM »
What?! So let me get this straight - an organisation founded by volunteers to raise awareness and combat the insidious intent of the Labour administration to catalogue its people in an authoritarian and insecure manner has become perverted into a limited f*cking company?!

What total wankers!

The NO2id t-shirt's going into the bin and I'll ask them to cease sending me the bloody newsletter.

Like you say - Liberty looks like the way to go (besides which, I have this odd attraction to Ms Chakrabarti  )))) )
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Outoftowner

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Re: 10 Census Lies
« Reply #19 on: March 14, 2011, 09:04:39 AM »
Quote
(besides which, I have this odd attraction to Ms Chakrabarti  )))) )

That doen't make you a perv Tobes! :2funny:
What's it all about?