Author Topic: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.  (Read 77100 times)

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MrGrumpy

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #120 on: June 10, 2012, 08:44:04 AM »
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I doubt that SBC (for a change) is to blame. 
There are some in Swindon who still do NOT understand who is responsible for SBC's policy.  Could this policy decision have been taken by the councillors?  When did the EDA get scaled back and Tadpole endorsed?  Maybe before the General Election?   When did all the consultations take place for the EDA?  What would you do if you wanted to hold a major office with that kind of opposition?  Who was one of the Covingham councillors at the time?  Who was, and is, a main player in planning?  Who was his mate and had ambition?  Wouldn't you spread the bad news?  Why do you think that people in the north and south feel they are being played?

Perhaps you can answer your own questions now?

It is time for the people of Swindon to stop fighting each other and put the blame where it belongs!

George Elliot

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #121 on: June 10, 2012, 08:53:44 AM »
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I have no idea why the site has not come forward yet but I doubt that SBC (for a change) is to blame.



I was intrigued by the comment as this has been under discussion in Swindon for years.

If I am not mistaken the  Front Garden Action group and Bloor Homes argued in court that the EDA should go ahead before the SDA in 2001 http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/archive/2001/03/17/Wiltshire+Archive/7385196.Front_Garden_fund_reaches___13_000/

Fast Forward to 3 years ago http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/local/4421126.Concern_about_12_000_homes_planned_for_land_east_of_town/
Quote
Ward councillor Dale Heenan, who is also the chairman of Swindon Council’s planning committee, said the EDA would be the biggest development in the south west and would see Swindon dwarf Oxford in size.

He said: “Issues of transport, housing, education and leisure facilities are all being discussed.

“If this debate happens after applications are submitted we could find developers dictating the terms and it will be too late.


But the people of EDA  spoke out http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/local/4426684.Swindon_development_plan_fiercely_opposed/
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But before council planners could even launch the presentation angry residents began shouting about their current housing woes, including the long-suffered issue of flooding.

“It was supposed to be a presentation but it almost turned into a shouting match,” said Pauline Davis from Martinfield, Covingham.

“They couldn’t even explain what the plans meant because people were shouting their piece.”


Rod Bluh Council Leader at the next meeting said (after the chair asked him and Cllr Phil Young to answer yes or No. Note Rid still did not answer No he replied with measured words
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“I don’t want to see any houses built on the EDA”


After this the plan metamorphosed itself to the Eastern Villages Plan of 7500 houses and if you recall Cllr Peter Greenhalgh would not attend the public meeting to discuss it if the Swindon Advertiser attended.  http://www.talkswindon.org/index.php/topic,7399.0.html

I noted a political leaflet with Justin Tomlinson MP and Cllrs Dale Heenan and Emma Faramazi http://www.talkswindon.org/politics/leaflet_archive/2011%2003%2020%20conservative%20Emma%20Faramarzi%20Covingham%20&%20Nythe.pdf

Now back to
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I have no idea why the site has not come forward yet but I doubt that SBC (for a change) is to blame.


 :popcorn:




MrGrumpy

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #122 on: June 10, 2012, 09:10:32 AM »
Thanks, George E, for putting some facts into this discussion on the EDA and Tadpole Farm.  Perhaps it is all beginning to make sense why Tadpole Farm is going flat out now...

Smiler

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #123 on: June 10, 2012, 09:36:47 AM »
Thanks, George E, for putting some facts into this discussion on the EDA and Tadpole Farm.  Perhaps it is all beginning to make sense why Tadpole Farm is going flat out now...

Mr Grumpy can I add a quote to the debate from the North Locality meeting on Thursday, 7th June.   Cllr V Tomlinson answering a question about the MP's position on Tadpole Farm.

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The MP who has given his opinion several times is Justin Tomlnson, the North Swindon MP.  He's my son and he has told me his thoughts as well as he's put it in print.  He is against inappropriate development.  Make of that what you like but those are his words.


Offline Jean

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #124 on: June 10, 2012, 09:46:14 AM »
I've participated in all the Structure and Local plan inquiries for this area for nearly 30 years now on behalf of Swindon Friends of the Earth. The Eastern Development Area came forward as a draft planning policy for the Structure Plan before the  Front Garden was proposed. It was actually the Panel at the Examination in Public of the Wilts Structure Plan who told the planning authorities to forget developing east ("Swindon is not expected to grow at rates that characterised previous years" - a quote from Regional Planning Guidance at the time) and to look again. At the time, David Wilson Homes had already submitted a planning application for the so-named "Eastgate" proposal and this included a university campus. It didn't go anywhere once the Panel ruled out development to the east.

After that the Front Garden ended up being adopted as the next expansion area in the Structure Plan. 

The Government then decided that Swindon should grow substantially again - a Principal Urban Area - hence the high forecasts in the discredited draft Regional Spatial Strategy when around 12,000 houses were allocated to the east of Swindon.

So you could blame a Government-appointed planning panel for stopping growth in an eastern direction about 15 years ago.   
Live simply so that others might simply live

Smiler

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #125 on: June 10, 2012, 09:50:57 AM »
Jean I never knew you were so close to the Tories!!

George Elliot

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #126 on: June 10, 2012, 10:37:16 AM »
The Libdem party sometime referred to as the LibDo nothing party did a lot  in the recent all out election in Ridgeway Cllr Bennatt and his fellow Tories were caught out by LibDem leaflets warning of development in and around Ridgeway.

This is why the Tories are suffering in Wroughton and had a near miss in Wanborough as they are all for the bulldozer anyone making excuses for them is no better. James Boyd done his bit for the people who do not support deal brokering Tories for builders to develop Swindon's open spaces.

Those in the EDA sorry Eastern Villages could possibly have a shock in store for them as the land for 12,000 homes is still there. The devlopment line on it has been contracted to allow only 7,500 houses. There you have it land is always there for the 12,000 homes and as North Swindon has proven a lot more!

Perhaps someone can explain why it was said that the East development at Kingsdown could not go ahead until  the SDA was built up. Then Coate was allowed because the SDA did not have enough supply. Hook could not go ahead because Coate was going ahead so the housing supply was satisfied and Ridgeway Farm is not suitable because  Tadpole is more suitable for housing supply in Swindon.  Union Square is housing supply, but does not count as it is in Central and it is perceived that local councillors think it is a car park!

The is no core strategy except for the 2009 version approved by council yes planning officers perceive there is an emerging one, but omit to point out that is not valid as it has not bee approved by council. 1500 objections to the emerging one, but the people and councillors  have so far not had any chance to discuss it. But as I have said it is perceived by some people that Panning Officers speak of it as if it has been approved.

Tadpole farm if refused will also be lost on appeal do the the council know that?  I say that based on as much evidence that the emerging core strategy has been approved by SBC councillors they are I perceive inter alia.

Offline the gorgon

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #127 on: June 10, 2012, 11:00:49 AM »
@Jean
"You don't work for David Wilson Homes, do you? They have been promoting development in East Swindon for donkeys years now. Ask them why the development hasn't started."

No Jean just an ordinary citizen by day but the Oakhurst Avenger by night! My mission is to protect the citizens of gotham from the corrupting influences of power in city hall. My latest crusade is to uncover the reasons why this council is promoting development in the northwest and south of Swindon but is doing everything to stop development in the East. The evidence base has always identified the East as the most sustainable direction of growth for Swindon yet no development has occurred there. Don't you find that odd?

There is meant to be a saying amongst town planner, that's along the lines of "you don't build outside your bypass".  The reason is because once you do that development becomes unfettered and the very development you oppose now probably becomes even more likely.

I've attached a map of EDA study area from the SBC just to remind people how large an area it covered.

You're doing the right thing in opposing the Tadpole Lane development, but you sound like a NIMBY when promoting wide scale destruction of countryside to the east of Swindon, you can develop but not in my back yard!  I'm sure building in the EDA would have a negative impact on all the people living on or off Oxford Road or Merlin Way and around Edison Road and Dorcan Way (the EDA access points).


George Elliot

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #128 on: June 10, 2012, 11:13:19 AM »
Gorg

Yep it's a big one! Not I am not a Nimby, but I believe Swindon has had too much development in the North and West. Anyway people in the East are it is percieved in favour of Morrisons and that is a massive store.  It is an out of town store inside Dorcan. What will happen to the shops  at Coleview and the people who want to keep their shopping centre viable? Ask the people of Haydonwick who perceive that Tory councillors dont ask they speak for! If they want to remove speed restrictions to speed up traffic in Thames Avenue.

So that traffic can get past Morrisons quickly.

Smiler

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #129 on: June 10, 2012, 11:31:18 AM »
Look, can we get back on thread.  This thread is about Tadpole going before planning on Tuesday.  It belies the fact that development in Swindon is a casino where residents win or lose on the perception of votes.   The approach is dysfunctional at best and political at worse.  Officers appear to have mind in neutral one day and the next day members appear to put them on pedestals as the font of all knowledge. 

The only common thread to this is Justin Tomlinson, MP and Dale Heenan.  Oh and of course Rod Bluh.  Three wise men or three wise monkeys?  It's like playing a fruit machine.  You pull the lever down and you're not sure if you're going get three melons or three lucky stars depending on your location.

If the residents all over north west and north east Swindon worked together then the politicians would be exposed and their decision- making machine would become the dud it is!!

Come on support each other and tell Tomlinson, Heenan and Bluh to stop gambling with Swindon's future.

Offline Muggins

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #130 on: June 10, 2012, 11:43:29 AM »
"The is no core strategy except for the 2009 version approved by council yes planning officers perceive there is an emerging one, but omit to point out that is not valid as it has not bee approved by council. 1500 objections to the emerging one, but the people and councillors  have so far not had any chance to discuss it. But as I have said it is perceived by some people that Panning Officers speak of it as if it has been approved"

With any development in which I have been involved, it was as above, "in the next plan", it has never mattered much whether it was passed or not, and this included any legislation/guidance on development or building requirements, if developers wanted it they got it!

I listened VERY carefully and learned from our local Friends of the Earth and The Protection of Rural England, knowing that they are very up with the 'hot topics' and current legislation and jolly well knew how to present a case on all levels.

Here's one thing I learned from experience..........the terminology used. Like 'appropriate'. What we need from our politicians is a straight forward sentence like "I am against development" to believe them.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Smiler

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #131 on: June 10, 2012, 11:59:27 AM »
Quote
The Core Strategy & Development Management Policies 2026 DPD is a material consideration.  However, this is some way from adoption so it has been afforded limited weight.

said by the Secretary of State reference the decision to uphold the Coate Appeal (March 2012)


Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #132 on: June 10, 2012, 12:01:31 PM »
@Jean
"The proposed Eastern Development Area is not a small-scale urban extension - it is essentially the basis of creating another town. At the time of the study, the EDA was proposed to accommodate 12,000 new homes. This figure was subsequently reduced in the 2011 draft Core Strategy to 7,500 homes. I have no idea why the site has not come forward yet but I doubt that SBC (for a change) is to blame."

Tadpole Farm (1700) + Pry Farm (3000) + Ridgeway (800) + ? = 5500 homes+ That is not a small-scale urban extension either. That is minimum half the size of the current NDA added on again. Furthermore, the developers have options on much of the land between North Swindon and Cricklade I understand. The developer's application for Pry Farm is ready to go I believe.

@The Gorgon
"You're doing the right thing in opposing the Tadpole Lane development, but you sound like a NIMBY when promoting wide scale destruction of countryside to the east of Swindon, you can develop but not in my back yard!  I'm sure building in the EDA would have a negative impact on all the people living on or off Oxford Road or Merlin Way and around Edison Road and Dorcan Way (the EDA access points)."

Houses have to be built somewhere to sustain economic growth. The question is where should they be built. That is why we require development decisions to be based upon objective planning advice and evidence, not upon short-term decisions driven by local politics. The objective evidence - not my evidence - said the future direction of growth for Swindon should be to the East into the countryside you mention. All I am doing is pointing out that planning in Swindon is not being driven by facts and sound evidence...but by politics.

@George Elliott
"Those in the EDA sorry Eastern Villages could possibly have a shock in store for them as the land for 12,000 homes is still there. The devlopment line on it has been contracted to allow only 7,500 houses. There you have it land is always there for the 12,000 homes and as North Swindon has proven a lot more!"

I still re-iterate my point. Not a house has been built in the East (whether you are working off the 7,500 plan or the 12,000 plan). If the 7,500 had been started then the decision of where you build the next lot - in the North or South, or again in the East is quite different. This is nothing to do with David Wilson Homes (they would build tomorrow if they were allowed). It is also nothing to do with the Planning Inspector - that is a complete red herring. It is pure and simple to do with back room deals between the SBC and developers. The council decides which developments get built first and which ones they defer to later.




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Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #133 on: June 10, 2012, 12:04:36 PM »
How the Tories have ignored the evidence base for the future direction of growth for Swindon.

The aims of the Swindon Joint Study 2026, were:

? to establish a long-term, achievable vision to 2026 for the Swindon
Joint Study Area encompassing not only land use planning issues but
also those of health, education, culture and sport.
? to consider how future development in the Swindon Joint Study Area to
2026 can help to achieve the aims and objectives identified for the
area.
? to produce a succinct report/recommendations readily able to be
included in the Regional Spatial Strategy and also in a form which can
be used effectively in the production of Local Development
Frameworks and other planning documents within the boundary of
Swindon Joint Study Area.

Three strategic locations for growth were tested within the Swindon
Joint Study: east of Swindon, north west of Swindon and south west of
Swindon.

The consultation on the Joint Study attracted a significant number of
responses in relation to locations for future growth. Whilst expressing
concern about growth, the public have shown a general preference in the
consultation for development to the east of Swindon, although other
stakeholders did not come to a consensus on this.

Conclusions of the Joint Study were as follows:

The results of the Swindon Joint Study indicate that the area to the east of
Swindon is identified as the generally the most sustainable direction of
growth
for all three growth scenarios. Although the East is constrained by the
A419 / A420, there are more options in this direction to overcome this
challenge than is the case for the challenges facing the North West or South
West. It is also physically closer to several centres of employment than
either of the other sites. It is a large area with no critical landscape features
and few biodiversity constraints.

The results of the Swindon Joint Study indicate that the area to the North
West of Swindon is identified as generally the least sustainable direction for
growth
for all three growth scenarios. The North West is the most remote site
from the key centres of employment and is also remote from major existing
highway infrastructure to which it would require a connection. The area also
has several high quality habitats and is fragmented in landscape terms. In the
North West development would have a major impact on a largely unchanged
historic landscape.

The results of the Swindon Joint Study indicate that the area to the South
West of Swindon in sustainability terms fall between the above two options
.
In landscape terms it is developable in two parts with very few biodiversity
constraints and, in terms of flood risk, has the highest potential for growth.

But look what is happening instead. The graphs attached compare the housing split between the growth directions for Swindon going forward under the old Regional Spatial Strategy (which the Joint Study informed), the Tories Draft Core Strategy (still to be adopted), and also the third scenario which is the Draft Core Strategy plus Ridgeway Farm and Pry Farm (if they go ahead).

Instead of the East being the future direction of growth for Swindon - which was the conclusion of the Joint Study - the direction of growth is actually being steered in the less sustainable directions to the Northwest and South of Swindon. The exact opposite of what the evidence base in the Joint Study said should happen. :wakeup:

Oakhurst Avenger

Thank you for putting this post up, it says quite a lot a picture is worth a 1,000 words they say. Keep contributing to this topic as your information is is a subtle as a developer's brief making a sustainabilty statement on behalf of a developer at a planning appeal.  ;D
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Smiler

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #134 on: June 10, 2012, 12:25:38 PM »
So why are the blue court saying that Tadpole can't be defended on Appeal?  Where there's a will, there's a way!  Or is a lot of mis-information being put out by the blue crowd to please the pro-developer wing in the government?  Do they dance to a different piper than the local crowd?  Is it all smoke and mirrors?

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #135 on: June 10, 2012, 01:15:34 PM »
Looking at the Bypass comment I thought it was more about boundaries? In my Lifetime I have seen many bypasses, around the country become inner distributionroads or just plain relief roads, as building around them was achieved. Hook St on the boundary with Wilts Council comes to mind no bypass in fact there is only Hook Street and in stretches is a single track with passing places. It was not won by the developer on appeal in absence of a bypass. Though Great Western Way is to some viewed as a bypass.

The Ridgeway Farm appeal, was different again the argument for not allowing Ridgeway Farm as I understood it (subject to Inspector's report) and in my opinion around housing supply in Swindon and that Tadpole Farm of 1750 will meet that supply. For information to anyone interested I do not recall any North Swindon Councillors attending the appeal whilst I was there or the North MP. However South Swindon turned up Robert Buckland MP attended and Cllr Nick Martin also made his presence felt by supporting Shaw Residents at the proceedings.
All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline Candide7

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #136 on: June 10, 2012, 01:31:33 PM »
@Smiler
"So why are the blue court saying that Tadpole can't be defended on Appeal?  Where there's a will, there's a way!  Or is a lot of mis-information being put out by the blue crowd to please the pro-developer wing in the government?  Do they dance to a different piper than the local crowd?  Is it all smoke and mirrors?"

Actually under the rules of the new NPPF if they are applied correctly Tadpole Farm has a good chance to win an appeal based upon the following facts/evidence:

1. Tadpole Farm is not part of any current adopted development plan for Swindon.
2. The Draft Core Strategy is not an adopted development plan, and thus Tadpole Farms allocation of 1700 houses in it, albeit a material consideration, should be afforded only limited weight compared with point 1 above in accordance with the Secretary of State's decision dated 27th March 2012 on Commonhead.
3. The best location for the 1000 dwellings required by Wilts & Structure Plan 2016 at West of Swindon depends on whether you choose to believe the conclusions of the Principal Urban Area Study (which informed the Structure Plan - an adopted document material in decision-making under the NPPF rules) or the Small-scale Swindon Urban Extensions Study (which informed the Regional Spatial Strategy (now revoked)). The former said Tadpole Farm (River Ray) should not be taken forward, the latter said it should. If I were a QC I would argue that the former carries more weight because its conclusions ended up in an adopted development plan (Structure Plan 2016), whilst the latter did not (the RSS and Draft Core Strategy).
4. The disadvantages of taking current Tadpole Farm application forward in its present state in manys view outweigh the benefits. On the benefits side there is the construction work and the supply of more housing in Swindon (economic arguments, albeit the housing supply argument is more contentious in current housing market in Swindon). On the negative side there are the severe impacts on existing communities because of infrastructure deficits of the application particularly on highways and school places in North. Item 4 is key in this case where the adopted development plan is silent on the Tadpole Farm application.
5. Deliverability - a key consideration of the NPPF when considering applications. The Tadpole Farm application relies on the delivery of a new link road to the A419, the rapid bus transit to work on a long term basis to reduce trips by car as calculated in Crest's Transport Assessment, and an upgrade to the waste water network, amongst other things.  The Council has already acknowledged it does not know where it can get the money from for the necessary highway infrastructure improvements in Swindon required to support development.

As you say if there is a will there is always a way - with the help of a good QC.
Francois-Marie Arouet (Voltaire) - I hate what you say but I defend your right to say it

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Mr Grumble

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #137 on: June 10, 2012, 02:02:39 PM »
Hello, may I introduce myself - Mr Grumble.

I've been reading this thread for quite a while now and couldn't hold back my questions any longer.

Why wasn't Justin Tomlinson at the Ridgeway Farm appeal?  Where were the ward councillors?  If they're so against it then why aren't they doing the job they're paid for?

Is this the same Tomlinson who was the ward councillor in Abbey Meads during the house building programme in North Swindon?  If he is then how can he be against inappropriate development?  Didn't he support the concrete jungle he's helped to create or don't councillors have any influence over decisions?  If that's the case then what's the point of electing them?

Offline the gorgon

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #138 on: June 10, 2012, 03:25:35 PM »
Looking at the Bypass comment I thought it was more about boundaries?

You might well be right there Steve, what I quoted is probably 4th or 5th hand information.

Offline Candide7

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Re: North Swindon Expands Westwards and North Towards Chapel Farm.
« Reply #139 on: June 10, 2012, 04:12:35 PM »
@ Mr Grumble
"Why wasn't Justin Tomlinson at the Ridgeway Farm appeal?  Where were the ward councillors?  If they're so against it then why aren't they doing the job they're paid for?"

What they say and what they do are two quite different things. Justin Tomlinson and the ward councillors voted to approve the Draft Core Strategy and the 1700 houses at Tadpole Farm therein. This has been the story of the last 2 years and why residents in the North have been so frustrated with their lack of interest in addressing residents concerns with the Crest application.
Francois-Marie Arouet (Voltaire) - I hate what you say but I defend your right to say it

The opinions and views expressed are my own and are not those of any organisation I belong to