Poll

Do you think people handed an ASBO should be named

Yes
7 (43.8%)
No
2 (12.5%)
I think anyone convicted of a crime should expect to be named
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: January 08, 2011, 10:54:13 AM

Author Topic: Should ASBO teenagers be named  (Read 33254 times)

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #60 on: December 18, 2010, 09:24:13 AM »
20Eyes - Funny how you are happy to use Ian's name but not your own?

Question: do you think Ian Pounds' latest appearance in court for breaching his ASBO will in any way influence him not to breach his ASBO in the future?

Seriously, I'm very interested in your response, it should be very illuminating.
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Offline bobwright

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #61 on: December 18, 2010, 10:13:38 AM »
Not as illuminating as why you hide behind a pseudonym?

No one changes until they are ready to change. Reflection and acceptance of the need to change is one way of moving things forward. You naming someone on a thread is not likely to make the difference required however good luck with that approach.

If you are saying that an ASBO is not the right tool to continue to use once it has failed to make a difference I will support your thinking.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #62 on: December 18, 2010, 10:21:36 AM »
Not as illuminating as why you hide behind a pseudonym?

Nice to see you answer the questions put.

By the way, you do realise that it's still commonly accepted good practice NOT to use your real name on publically accessible Internet sites?

You also seem oblivious to the quite obvious fact that I could have registered as Robert Wright, if I'd wanted to, and you'd equally have no idea whatsoever whether that was my real name or not.

No one changes until they are ready to change. Reflection and acceptance of the need to change is one way of moving things forward. You naming someone on a thread is not likely to make the difference required however good luck with that approach.

How many times do you think Ian Pounds should be allowed to breach his ASBO before we 'reflect and accept' that he's never going to adhere to it?

If you are saying that an ASBO is not the right tool to continue to use once it has failed to make a difference I will support your thinking.

It's clearly failed with Ian Pounds. I hope you agree that a custodial sentence is really the only option for such a person. As I said above, he could be arrested virtually every day on exactly the same charges/breaches. In fact, he asked a friend of mine to give him a cigarette just outside The Vic just last week.
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #63 on: December 18, 2010, 12:24:56 PM »
The idea of policing and ASBOs is an aspect of the more general concept of social control. Social control is itself a complex and a much debated notion policing is not only about a group of people wearing black uniforms and day glow jackets? Some parts of the world  do not have police patrolling within their midst, yet order is kept by social control. What society has done is to take its eye of its own social control and hand it over to the "police fetishists" on the basis of an ideological assumption that the police are a functional prerequisite of social order and believe that without a police force chaos would ensue. For example policing in Wiltshire is only just over 170 years old what was there before?

ASBOs are part of contemporay social control it is a mechanism to contribute to social order. I worry sometimes that ASBOs are Marxist versions of critical criminology inter alia a simple reversal of moral blame by making social control agents ‘fall-guys’  of a wider structure of power and privilege.

It appears that this thread is lurching from one side of that argument  to the other. Section 5 of the public order act is very effective at dealing with public order issues, and county court injunctions are also effective, what ASBOs did was combine the two principles along with the  idea not to criminalize young people, the criminal part kicks in when it is breached. Using Dazzer type technology to emit sounds that cause pain to young people to keep them away from shops was debated as breaching their human rights. However they should have tried mood music but that is for another thread someday!

Libertarians see social control as inextricably intertwining the maintenance of universally benefi cial order and social dominance and oppression: ‘parking tickets’ and ‘class repression’. Policing today is an omnibus of agencies, individuals, organisations and private business. That is why the issue of ASBOs as Bob refers to in his panacea comment is not 100% effective. 

Punishment has to be proportionate and rehabilatative there are many people in society who breach the rules and are named in the local and national papers.

ASBOs are breached by residivist behaviour no different to that of people who  get more than x number of points on their licence and are banned from driving. Yet these people can be leaders of our community. If a politician is banned from driving for points accumulated on their licence does that make them any less capable of doing their job? It only becomes a criminal matter if they then drive while disqualified.

What of the guardians of society the police should the names of all officers with criminal convictions be published?  (This is just one of many links on the internet). http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/merseyside/5317894.stm

Naming people may not modify their behaviour because the social control of self policing  within themselves, their families, friends, peers and community has either broken or shifted? Stigmatizing people was a method of self policing used by communities for example years ago stigmatizing single mothers was wrong stigmatizing offenders appears to have been  Ok. today stigmatizing anyone is viewed as a no no. Society is amorphous and so is its laws and punishments the birch, hanging, stocks, pillory and transportation are no longer used and soon ASBOs will be joining  that group.

Arresting someone every day because of their ASB and incarcerating them for a long period of time is costly and may not reslove the matter. What next transport them to Rockall? Or Give them drugs that render them into an automotive state like in clockwork orange? what I want to know is, if we had used just 0.1% of the tax payers money to deal with the bank bailouts would it have gone along way to dealing with ASB? 

As for using a name other than your given name is ok everyone is entitled to their privacy. People who breach  the law are named why is  that? It it  because everyone needs to  be informed so that they may protect themselves? Or do we still  think that the press are responsible for social control by naming and shaming? Maybe we are all responsible for the social control in our community and not only commentators on it?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #64 on: December 18, 2010, 01:40:04 PM »
I think much of what you've written makes a lot of sense.

In the case of an ASBO for somebody like Ian Pounds, it's important that as many people as possible know his name and have seen his photograph. In nobody knows who/what he is, they won't ever think to report him when he begs, harrasses and intimidates them.

One of the problems with our society is the way certain sections of it have reached a point where they believe that criminals are 'victims' and appear to take on some level of personal guilt about why criminality exists. This manifests itself in the notion that proper punishment shouldn't be used and by all but defending criminals. Often, the more heinous the crime, the quicker some people are to want to show how understanding they are about the criminal concerned.

It's all a bit perverse, really. It never ceases to amaze me how those who appear unconcerned with public safety and protection scrabble to call their approach 'enlightened'. It seems to come from the same school of 'enlightenment' that leads to the needless death of 12 year old girls:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-12011868
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #65 on: December 18, 2010, 01:45:35 PM »
Two senior immigration judges rejected a final appeal by the UK Border Agency to have him deported, saying it would infringe his human rights. Senior judges made the decision based on the law perhaps the law should be changed? However in this case  maybe we should all await the outcome of the appeal against the decision? Then see if Cameron will do something with his anger about the law if it is amazes more than it surprises?

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #66 on: December 18, 2010, 02:02:38 PM »
Two senior immigration judges rejected a final appeal by the UK Border Agency to have him deported, saying it would infringe his human rights. Senior judges made the decision based on the law perhaps the law should be changed?

Given that I doubt you'd be able to find more than handful of people in the entire country (Shami Chakrabarti excluded) who believe it's right and proper that this man remains in the country, yes, you would think that somebody might think about correcting a law that is so obviously poorly drawn up.

However in this case  maybe we should all await the outcome of the appeal against the decision? Then see if Cameron will do something with his anger about the law if it is amazes more than it surprises?

Cameron will claim he can't influence the judges, the judges will claim that the government makes the law etc. etc. It's the same old circle-jerk every time the law is shown to be desperately lacking.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline bobwright

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #67 on: December 18, 2010, 02:53:23 PM »

I have learnt in a very short time that it does not matter what I want the world to be like it matters more what difference can I make? Through good fortune and good sense many of us are able to avoid and overcome the difficulties that life presents. I do not think it helps to turn this fortune on others who find life much more difficult.

In spite of many describing the supportive actions of the State and Charities as a ‘Nanny State’ there is still a glaring hole in the social fabric. We still put the emphasis on response rather than prevention. What is not in place is an organisation with expertise to help those at the beginning of personal problems. Inevitably the likes of the CAB, SWADS and the Samaritans respond to the affects and not the symptoms or cause. Ringer has outlined the benefits of Civil Society so how do we get there, by naming and shaming??

By the way bobwright is a pseudonym for Bob Wright


Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #68 on: December 18, 2010, 03:31:42 PM »
How do you feel about the numerous people that Ian Pounds is allowed to beg from, harrass and intimidate on an almost daily basis, Bob?

You've not mentioned anything about them, or that side of the problem. You're just upset that Mr Pounds has had his name and photograph printed. Why am I not surprised?
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline bobwright

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #69 on: December 18, 2010, 04:59:35 PM »
I have agreed an ASBO is not the suitable way to help in this case and may not be suitable for others. I feel that numerous people should not be bothered and he needs help. I believe an intervention and separation from a destructive lifestyle will help him and society. I just can not see how you using his photograph and name on Talkswindon will help.

If it helps you I am not upset just curious why someone who appears to be intelligent in many ways seems to have a blind spot in this matter. Perhaps you missed Ringers point about this not just being a control issue, something has to change. Do you really think shame will be an effective tool in this case? Taking someone away from an environment to help change can be an effective method however if the root cause has not changed there is still a good chance of the return of old behaviours.

All my training indicates that an individual must want to change and have the intention to change. Quite often support is required to help the change to become effective. You are quite right people should not have to put up with the behaviour however we can help both the individual and society if an effective option is used.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #70 on: December 18, 2010, 05:17:40 PM »
I just can not see how you using his photograph and name on Talkswindon will help.


Admittedly, I don't know what Talk Swindon's site visitor statistics are - so it may be of little use posting up his name and photo if not many people frequent the site. However, his name and photo have been published several times on the Adver website and the Council's website, so it's hardly as if it's a secret or something. If Mr Pounds doesn't like his name and photo being published online, maybe he should consider not breaking the law/his ASBO conditions in future.

As I've said before, if people do not know what this man looks like, how would they ever be able to report him for his ASBO breaches when he approaches them to beg, harrass or intimidate them - as he does on a regular basis.

Seriously, how many more chances does this individual, who's presumably never done a day's work in his life,  deserve? How much time, effort and money has been thoroughly wasted on trying to pretend he'll ever be 'rehabilitated'? How many people's lives have been interrupted and degraded by this man, simply because the deluded authorities refuse to put him in prison (despite him being a serial offender)?

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1341985.Man_jailed_for_attack_on_OAP/

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/archive/2005/08/01/Wiltshire+Archive/7242830.Burglar_jailed_for_theft_from_friend/

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/4464921.Asbo_for_man_who_hawked_stolen_goods/

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/4801558.Asbos_given_to_offenders/

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #71 on: December 18, 2010, 05:39:53 PM »
"Tony Nowogrodski, defending, said Pounds had a complicated background, which included being diagnosed with schizophrenia at the age of 16. "

This and the fact he was asking for £1 for a cup of coffee, may be a clue as to why is not being severly dealt with.

The man is sick.

Should bring back the funny farms, aye 20Eyes?

When was this Care in the Community started?

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #72 on: December 18, 2010, 05:52:21 PM »
Defence laywers will pull out all the usual mitigating factors until they're blue in the face. You can't just explain all of this man's crimes away by blithely saying, 'Oh well, he's sick'.

On the one hand we are forever being told that we must accept that mentally ill people are of no greater threat to law breaking than anyone else, but then as soon as someone breaks the law their defence lawyer plays the trump card of, 'Ah ha, but they're mentally ill' and we all have to just shrug and accept it? The mitigating factor is that the mental illness is the root cause of the criminality (can't have the individual ever take responsibility) and yet we're told that mental illness doesn't cause criminality - talk about cake and eating it.

A breach of an ASBO is a breach of an ASBO. The conditions of his ASBO are very clear and he broke them - just because you think it's trivial doesn't mean the person he was begging from thinks it's unimportant.

I have met this individual on the street and have been approached by him several times, as have my friends. I'm a fairly large, adult male and he comes across as unpredictable, violent and intimidating to me. I have seen him approach young girls on their way into Longs Bar during the summer months - it's not pleasant. Indeed, a friend and I were moved to 'politely' ask him to 'move along' on one occasion as he was clearly causing two girls some distress due to the way he was speaking to them and approaching them.

The thing is, he'll annoy the wrong person one day and will end up getting hurt. Surely it'd be better for all concerned if the magistrates/judges jailed him (again). His 'rehabilitation' under a community based sentence quite clearly isn't working.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #73 on: December 18, 2010, 05:56:12 PM »
When was this Care in the Community started?

I forgot to respond to this... yes, it's a huge problem, is an absolutely shameful Act and one of the worst pieces of legislation the Tories have ever introduced.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Steve Wakefield

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #74 on: December 18, 2010, 06:08:22 PM »
From this link it said
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/

"it is not a very straightforward history,” he said.

“Over the course of the last few years, he has been unwell with schizophrenia.

“In the main, his offending has always been linked with the town centre and that was the focus of the Asbo.”

Clearly prison is not working to use Ken Clark's view and he accepts that more people will be on the streets who would have been in prison. Ill people need help and a stabilty brought into their  live. Years ago I was involved in the reprovision of Mental Hospitals and people had been kept in there drugged into a stupor for decades of their lives. If people have a stability in their lives and take medication as prescribed, it goes a long way to helping their rehabilitation, and they modify their behaviour appropriately.

I have worked for 30 years with people who live on the streets or in hostels, and have mental health issues. I find we as a society are becoming  less tolerant of people with such illnesses today. I know of people who have died in winters such as we have now. A few weeks ago a great grandfather who was on the way to the GPs parked his car and in the centre of Salisbury slipped on the snow, and knocked himself out, it is claimed people walked past him as he lay there for 4 hours before someone called the police and an ambulance. Why was that?

http://www.salisburyjournal.co.uk/news/salisbury/salisburynews/8711226.Elderly_man_lies_in_street_for_four_hours_as_people_walk_by/

It may have been because people stereotype the people who shall we say "live on the street"? Many of those that died on the street that I have dealt with had at one time had everyday lives and some had powerful positions in society how they came to die in the street wrapped in cardboard etc opened my eyes. Many of them were decorated ex service personnel. That is why I have so much time for the Salvation Army as they help the most destitute of people. I could tell you a many a story about a rehabilitation, but I won't.

If anyone thinks an  ASBO can solve such a complex matter then I believe hopes will be continually dashed. But then many ASBOs do work and work well one only has to look at the successes of the Swindon Youth Offending Team, one of the continually highest rated and acheiving YOTs  in the country. There are many examples I could give but confidentaility prevents me from naming them, but I can name this one because they have been named in the adver and also made national headlines  I can refer to the case:

Read the Adver

Before ASBO Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1220669.Girls__13_and_14__are_given_Asbos/

After ASBO Rebecca Ball http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/1678554.Asbo_girl_turns_over_a_new_leaf/

After ASBO Hannah Bell http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/3716497.The_tiny_terror_turns_a_corner/

All posts on this forum are my own opinion and do not represent the views of any council or any political party.  :banana:

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #75 on: December 18, 2010, 06:25:14 PM »
"it is not a very straightforward history,” he said.

“Over the course of the last few years, he has been unwell with schizophrenia.

And, as I said above, defence laywers always come out with this stuff, it's their job. They don't care if the mental illness does, or doesn't, have anything to do with the offending - they just know that it makes the magistrate/judge's job easier as they can be unduly lenient without anyone being able to complain about it.

Or are they seriously suggesting that Ian Pounds has a split personality and one 'part' of him is the begging, intimidating law-breaking (who also batters pensions if they don't agree with him)?

“In the main, his offending has always been linked with the town centre and that was the focus of the Asbo.”

Ah, that's OK then, as long as his law breaking and ASBO breaches only happen in the town centre 'in the main'. Seriously, what is the quote above even supposed to mean? The defence lawyer then suggests that the town centre was the focus of the ASBO when, in fact, it applied to the entire borough of Swindon. It's all such nonsense.

Clearly prison is not working to use Ken Clark's view and he accepts that more people will be on the streets who would have been in prison.

Ken Clarke is wrong and Ken Clarke will, hopefully, be removed from his current post very shortly. As it stands, he's Labour's best hope for winning some votes.

There are many examples I could give but confidentaility prevents me from naming them, but I can name this one because they have been named in the adver and also made national headlines  I can refer to the case:

Read the Adver

Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell

I don't doubt that some people, especially very young teenagers, simply grow out of their anti-social behaviour, it's almost an aspect of simply growing up and becoming an adult. In the same way, some people simply commit one offence (for whatever reason), it doesn't prove that their 'rehabilitation' worked, it just means they may not have had the reason to reoffend any longer. For example, if somebody murders another person because that person had previously raped them, they'd be unlikely to ever kill anyone in the future - so their period in prison wouldn't have 'rehabilitated' them at all, they'd just have no reason to kill anyone again.

I sincerely hope that both Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell manage to stay out of trouble on an ongoing basis. However, just because an ASBO on two 13-year old girls may have played a part in them behaving themselves, it does not mean that an ASBO will work for the likes of Ian Pounds, who has repeatedly demonstrated, very clearly, that his ASBO does not work and likely never will work.

Although, in the case of Rebecca Ball and Hanna Bell I suspect it's another case of having cake and eating it. If they stay out of trouble the pro-ASBO lobby will claim a success but if they go on to commit further offences/ASB the pro-ASBO lobby will say, 'Ah, but it's very complex and ASBOs don't necessarily always work' or they'll say (as always makes me laugh when defence laywers do it), 'Ah, yes, but it's been at least four years since they last offenced' - as if the fact that they're not offending every single hour of every single day somehow makes everything OK.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #76 on: December 18, 2010, 06:35:47 PM »
I just can not see how you using his photograph and name on Talkswindon will help.


Admittedly, I don't know what Talk Swindon's site visitor statistics are


According to the more stats page, just over 100 thousand page views so far this month and just shy of 160 thousand page views last month. I know some of those will be search engine bots and the like, but I think it still indicates a fairly substantial readership.
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #77 on: December 18, 2010, 07:04:25 PM »
I wonder how many visits that other blogs in Swindon have?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #78 on: December 18, 2010, 07:09:08 PM »
According to the more stats page, just over 100 thousand page views so far this month and just shy of 160 thousand page views last month. I know some of those will be search engine bots and the like, but I think it still indicates a fairly substantial readership.


That's a very healthy number. Hopefully plenty of Swindonians will have read this thread and have become aware who Ian Pounds is and what his ASBO conditions forbid him from doing.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #79 on: March 05, 2011, 10:28:22 AM »
In light of this information:

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8891587.Crime_falls_by_47_per_cent_in_man___s_absence/

I'd be very interesting to hear whether Central Ward councillors helped this man stay out of prison whilst in Swindon. It seems another, very obvious, instance where the man should have been put in prison for a very long time in order to protect the public.

But he wasn't. The people of Broadgreen had to wait until the man himself decided to move to Bristol (for how long? It won't take long before they're bored of him... and certain areas of Bristol are far less, er, accommodating, than Broadgreen) before the terrorism finally ended.

Or, maybe, certain people believe that Abdi Muse has 'reflected and accepted' things and is now a law-abiding citizen  :2funny:
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart