Topic: Should ASBO teenagers be named

[20Eyes]

Firstly, have no doubt, that previous ASBO interim order receivers very soon find that it's no fun and nothing to brag about receiving an ASBO, they might be cocky at first, but the smirk is soon wiped away.

Why? Nothing happens if they break the ASBO - as around 70% of those who receive them do.

their familys usually have no alternative but to move and if they allow their children to continue with ASB they are in sever dangr of losing their homes with no resourse to the borough (if in council housing) for fruther accomodation - it is considered to have made themselves homeless by their actions or lack of action.

You fail to mention that Councils do have a duty to re-house these people. Sometimes the families do have to move to a different Council area, but, regardless, they do have to re-house them. They are NOT left on the streets and they know that only too well.

When it get's to the stage of Interim ASBO, this means that there is no other way, it's a last warning. Be sure that this boy will be named at the next one and we only have 13 weeks to wait - if this doesn't make him change his ways.

This is the problem, these people know damn well that they have about five 'final' warnings:

1. Police caution/warning (totally meaningless non-punishment, whatever they might claim)
2. Interim ASBO (totally meaningless non-punishment, whatever they might claim)
3. ASBO (totally meaningless non-punishment, whatever they might claim)
4. Community Service (totally meaningless non-punishment, if they even complete it, whatever they might claim)
5. Suspended Sentence (the most totally meaningless non-punishment of them all)
6. Prison (you can strike this one from the list if Kenny Clarke gets his way)

The people who receive ASBOs simply laugh at how stupid we've been to actually catch them, find them guilty but then do absolutely nothing about it. ASBOs have failed, they're a waste of time and resources. About the only thing they don't do is to prevent, reduce or effectively punish crime.

ASBO effectiveness has also been questioned. In a House of Commons reply it was stated that 53.7% of ASBOs were breached in England in 2005; 69.4% in 2006; 70.3% in 2007

Pathetic.

The National Audit Office, which analysed 1,000 cases dating from 1999 to April 2006, said 35% of Asbo holders had breached their order five or more times.

Recent research by the Youth Justice Board found similar results and the study said that Asbos had become a "badge of honour" among young people.

Source: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/6214662.stm

Pathetic.

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[Muggins]

It was pathetic, and mostly down to the partnerships not having got their act together - or taking the subject seriously enough.  Work was done and they were given gee-ups to get it done, it was a big issue.  Seeking out a successful way to go about it was emerging.

Those figures have changed.  The kids do try it on, to breach their orders, but it doesn't ge them very far now. Luckily they don't stay 16 for long a bit of maturity does sometimes work wonders, but as we know not everyone grows up no matter how old they are.

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[Des Morgan]

Just by way of advice - please do NOT be tempted to name the boy on the TS site. If you do the person naming him and Geoff Reid would be held in contempt of court for breaching the section 39 order. Christmas could be spent in chokey as contempt is treated much worse than acts of violence etc 

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[20Eyes]

Those figures have changed.  The kids do try it on, to breach their orders, but it doesn't ge them very far now.

I'm not doubting that you believe that to be the case, but I'd really have to see some evidence in order to believe that. In 2007 over 70% of people breached their ASBOs but two years later they all toe the line? Hmm.

Given that:

Just 2 per cent of ASBO breaches are currently punished by a prison sentence

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs

Why would anyone bother to comply with them?

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[Muggins]

I believe it, because , for one the problems have stooped out side my house!

There have been about four/five cases where ASB has been stopped on the estate. 

I have seen a marked improvement in the partners working together.

We attend Neighbourhood Safety Team meetings for regular updates.

I have been to Respect and Police conferences and heard this from around the country.

We held our own conference so that very local people could attend. 

I have seen and heard local people stand up an bear witness and heard their stories. One of them a remarkably brave lady, did loads of research which she shared with us and we pioneered ASBO information boxes, which were added to by the Swindon Safety Partnership and distributed to all of our local community facilites, so that anyone could have access to that info in one place and the idea was taken up and was going to be put out across the town. 

Still what do I know?

 

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[20Eyes]

I believe it, because , for one the problems have stooped out side my house!

<snip>

Still what do I know?

I don't doubt that you know what's going on outside your house, or even in your immediate area.

I've just found that:

MOJ aim to publish data for 2009 by the end of December 2010 and data for 2010 by the end of October 2011. The ASBO publication will continue to be treated as an Official Statistics publication and precise publication dates will be pre-announced as soon as possible following the Code of Practice for Official Statistics.

http://www.statewatch.org/asbo/asbo_statistics_july_2010.pdf

So, we'll hopefully soon have the proper evidence to hand. I very much doubt that the percentage of ASBOs breached will have dropped by much, if at all.

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[Muggins]

Des, be assured I would not be tempted to name the boy, even if I knew his name. Iif I did know his name I would not be able to indentify him by it!

I might by description....short, tall, thin, fat, dark, fair, hoodie, stripey shirt, that type of thing.   

Anyway, I'm an upstanding (when I'm not a sitting down one!) citizen, why should I want to break an order evoked by a judge/magistrate, that would be just plain stupid.  Even if we thought the order was stupid, which in the circumstances I don't particularly.

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[Terry Reynolds]

the answer to the question must be yes and questions must be asked why mr Ross is able to make a living defending this dross......

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[20Eyes]

the answer to the question must be yes and questions must be asked why mr Ross is able to make a living defending this dross......

Rob Ross is definitely missing his true vocation. I mean, he's literally a miracle worker... within mere days of meeting him, people who have had life-long battles with serious drug addictions suddenly find themselves cured of those addictions and free from the curse of their demons.

It's truly heartening to read about these events during his summing up speeches.

There can't be a single drug addicted criminal left in Swindon, thanks to Mr Ross' intervention.

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[Mellon]

They've probably moved onto coprophilia (dunno the correct spelling it maybe right) and spend all day lying on the floor outside Euclid street waiting for Bluh and Co to give them a speech.......I reckon we should dress em up in pink jumpsuits stick a sandwich board over em with something entertaining written on en  and make them stand on a roundabout all day

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[Bogomil]

I am indebted to Bogomil for his explanations about Interim ASBOs - would he agree with me that consistency in the application of the law is as important as its transparency, if so would he not find a report in today's Adver a little odd.

At Swindon Magistrates Court yesterday a Mr Abdi Muse was given an Interim ASBO and in this case he was named and shamed. The strange thing about this action was that the Magistrate who made the order was the self same David Rogers - odd or what?

Des Thanks for the comment, even more interesting is

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8479182.ASBO_for__firebomb_threat__man__19/

and this little angel had already been kicked off the Penhill Estate when he was younger due to his antics.

Although this might appear inconsistent I think you will find that it is down to age… the 4 on this occasion (3 on the 23/11 and a further 1 on the 7/12) are all classed as juveniles, whilst the others are classed as adults.

Just by way of advice - please do NOT be tempted to name the boy on the TS site. If you do the person naming him and Geoff Reid would be held in contempt of court for breaching the section 39 order. Christmas could be spent in chokey as contempt is treated much worse than acts of violence etc 

mmmm I wish you hadn’t posted this… I bet there are a few in the know at the civic who would just love to see Geoff in the chokey (Only Joking Geoff)

But would it still be a breach if the individual names became known by criptic clues and subterfuge 

Firstly, have no doubt, that previous ASBO interim order receivers very soon find that it's no fun and nothing to brag about receiving an ASBO, they might be cocky at first, but the smirk is soon wiped away.

Why? Nothing happens if they break the ASBO - as around 70% of those who receive them do.

You fail to mention that Councils do have a duty to re-house these people. Sometimes the families do have to move to a different Council area, but, regardless, they do have to re-house them. They are NOT left on the streets and they know that only too well.

20Eyes
In reality what actually happens is…
Someone reports a breach of an ASBO to the Police. The response Police (quite wrongly in my opinion) as soon as they learn it is a ASBO breach pass it on to the Neighbourhood Policing Team, which is usually 1Beat Manager (a Police Officer) and a couple of PCSO’s. As the Police Officer is the only one who can follow this up, it then left to him/her to do all the work (along with all his/her other Neighbourhood Policing Duties and when he/she is not being pulled off to cover other duties which is also a regular occurrence. (I’m sure Muggins can support me in this)

When someone breaks an ASBO it becomes a criminal matter, so the person reporting the breach of the ASBO has to be prepared to
A) Make a Statement (hearsay statements cannot be made in a criminal matter)
B) Go into court if necessary.
Quite understandably, as these little angels didn’t get the ASBO in the first place for their sense of neighbourhood responsibility or kindness, very few are prepared to put their heads above the parapet for fear of reprisals. (And don’t forget before they go into court they get a copy of the statement with the witnesses name and address)

With regard to rehousing the family, this is not quite true. The council do have to temporarily house the family if they have been evicted but, subject to an appeal process, the tenant who’s been evicted because of the behaviour of their children can be deemed to have made themselves homeless and does not have to be rehoused by the council.


Muggins
Take heart according to his facebook page, at least one of your local councillors is being very vocal on the issue of naming and shaming (and publishing the photos) these kids (and adults) on ASBO’s

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[Chav]

In my opinion - I think that to make an ASBO effective - then yes the ASBOee should be named and pictured. It should be part of it !

I also think that the serial offenders which they would be to gain an ASBO in the first place should also have the input of professionals to work with them to help them break the cycle .
I also believe that part of the ASBO should include the offender being placed appropriately within the community to work as a volunteer and put something back !

That is my opinion and I would stand by this if one of my children went off the rails and ended up with an ASBO.

They would have the chance to turn themselves around and do good with the appropriate support and consistency from professionals, however, the naming and pictures should go with an ASBO regardless as this in it's self could be a deterrent to others !

I also know from personal experience, that ASBOS are not just given out for the sake of it, as it takes a lot of time, manpower (police/witnesses ) to gain the evidence to put to the court to apply for and issue an ASBO.

The people who are served ASBO'S are not just one -off offenders, they commit ASBO related offensences over a period of time and continue to do so despite warnings.

So to name and show who they are - should make them think twice as the community will know who they are and will report them if they recognise them if they break the conditions as set out with the ASBO.

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[Muggins]

Bogo:  I can support you in what you say and yes, I know our councillor has been very active in supporting the community in this issue - once standing, with the mother, over a lad and making him clean my windows.......

Chav, In effect they and their parents do get that support, that's why it takes so long from first report to full ASBO. 

There will always be one or two that will go on to a life of crime unfortunately.   

ps. no thanks to them coming back into the community to payback.  Yes, they do need to payback, but once we are rid of them we don't want to see them again, even if they become angels.

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[20Eyes]

20Eyes
In reality what actually happens is…
Someone reports a breach of an ASBO to the Police. The response Police (quite wrongly in my opinion) as soon as they learn it is a ASBO breach pass it on to the Neighbourhood Policing Team, which is usually 1Beat Manager (a Police Officer) and a couple of PCSO’s. As the Police Officer is the only one who can follow this up, it then left to him/her to do all the work (along with all his/her other Neighbourhood Policing Duties and when he/she is not being pulled off to cover other duties which is also a regular occurrence. (I’m sure Muggins can support me in this)

When someone breaks an ASBO it becomes a criminal matter, so the person reporting the breach of the ASBO has to be prepared to
A) Make a Statement (hearsay statements cannot be made in a criminal matter)
B) Go into court if necessary.
Quite understandably, as these little angels didn’t get the ASBO in the first place for their sense of neighbourhood responsibility or kindness, very few are prepared to put their heads above the parapet for fear of reprisals. (And don’t forget before they go into court they get a copy of the statement with the witnesses name and address)

Oh, I'm sure a lot of people make a lot of pointless noise which keeps people in jobs, makes others think something's being done and costs us all a lot of wasted money... but I'll repeat it again:

Just 2 per cent of ASBO breaches are currently punished by a prison sentence

http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs

98% of the time an ASBO is broken, nothing of any genuine consequence happens to the indivdiual who breaks it. It's very obvious from the year-on-year rise in the percentage of people that break their ASBOs that they have been taught that breaking them makes absolutely no difference to them personally.

With regard to rehousing the family, this is not quite true. The council do have to temporarily house the family if they have been evicted but, subject to an appeal process, the tenant who’s been evicted because of the behaviour of their children can be deemed to have made themselves homeless and does not have to be rehoused by the council.

Again, I know what the theory is. In reality, these people ARE rehoused - maybe by a different Council, but they are rehoused. If they have children under 16 living in the household it's a foregone conclusion, and they know it.

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[20Eyes]

There will always be one or two that will go on to a life of crime unfortunately.   

'One or two'?!?

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[Mart]

I mean, he's literally a miracle worker... within mere days of meeting him, people who have had life-long battles with serious drug addictions suddenly find themselves cured of those addictions and free from the curse of their demons.

Yeah,Pierrepoint had that gift.

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[Tea Boy]

I always thought that when a magistrate passes judgement they never do it alone. Aren't there three of them? In the case of this young lad and the judgement, without being privy to the full facts as seen by the three magistrates, no one really knows the full circumstances of the case. Isn't it a bit too much to attack a single magistrate over this decision?

I was also wondering if this might be a case of the young lad glorying in the ASBO? If he's the sort who will revel in this ASBO then by naming him you aren't helping the situation. He wears it as a badge of honor and carries on. Better to keep him unknown, under watch by PC Plod and take the appropriate action if he breaks the terms of the ASBO

But then, the way Ken Clarke is going he may never need to worry as the Tories will never carry out the ultimate threat of imprisonment. Just what is the point of even applying an ASBO if the ultimte deterent allowable by law is ignored.

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[Ringer]

Ken Clark is being very frank about what it means letting people out early, I wonder if the Libdem and Conservative occupiers of No10 are as impressed with Ken as Thatcher was? It is rumoured they rowed quite a bit

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[20Eyes]

In the case of this young lad and the judgement, without being privy to the full facts as seen by the three magistrates, no one really knows the full circumstances of the case. Isn't it a bit too much to attack a single magistrate over this decision?

If the courts wish to hide behind the snidey, 'You peasants may not comment on our decision as only we know the full facts' then I'm afraid the only way to continue the facade with any credibility is to allow us access to the full facts so that we may assess their decision in a way they'd find acceptable. But, of course, they'll never do that.

It would be like saying to your employer, 'Yes, that's right, you've noticed I'm not doing my job properly but there is very good reason for that which you are not aware of'

Employer: 'OK, so, what is that reason?'

'I'm not telling you because you're not allowed to know'

But then, the way Ken Clarke is going he may never need to worry as the Tories will never carry out the ultimate threat of imprisonment. Just what is the point of even applying an ASBO if the ultimte deterent allowable by law is ignored.

It always has been ignored. I would bet my last penny that the 2% of ASBO recipients that did finally end up in prison due to breaches (a) breached their ASBO(s) more than 5 times and (b) committed offences as part of the breach that attracted mandatory custodial sentences in any case.

ASBOs are pointless, they don't work. How can anyone claim that any system to prevent people doing something works when 70% of the people involved simply ignore it, breach the contract and continue doing what they were doing?

Ken Clarke's approach to Law & Order will be an abject failure. It would be lovely to think that criminals will simply stop committing crime because we ask the nicely, but it just doesn't work. It's well established that there is a relatively small, hardcore of serious repeat offenders in this country. Every police force in ever town knows who commits 90% of crime. All we need to do is keep these people off the streets, yet nobody has the political will to do so. It's as frightening as it is bewildering.

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[Muggins]

ASBO'S DO WORK and saying anything else based on anecdotal information is dangerous stuff.

Try living with it for three years. 

Trouble is that the kids that got into to anti social behaviour were usually too young to go to prison.  What they did,  based on one action at a time was hardly a prisonable offence, it's the accumulative effect and harrassment that was soul destroying. Their actions were usually the sort of thing you would have gone and knocked their door and asked their parents to sort out. It was not looked on as anything of importance by the powers that be, it went on for so long that it became entrenched in some youth culture.  Because of their age and petty offences there were no laws to deal with it.

About ten years ago it became a big election issue and laws were brought it and teams to deal with it and PCSO's so that it wouldn't take up the time of the real police.  It's not out of youth culture yet, but it is certainly improving.  AND not all youth went that way, but they all sort of get lumped together.

It had knock on effects, because they were untouchable, no one would help volunteer to run youth clubs, youth were not welcome were they were before and this just spiralled down. 

Something had to be done to stop the cycle of bad behaviour being handed down, father to brother to son and even the girls had started to join in.  People had to be given rights to live in peace.  It's taken a long time to get the system right, after all nothing like it had been tried before, perhpas that system isn;t right yet. It's a good deal more than we had before.

It's not ok to make sweeping statements to say something's not working when you have no experience of the problem or any other answers.

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