Poll

Do you think people handed an ASBO should be named

Yes
7 (43.8%)
No
2 (12.5%)
I think anyone convicted of a crime should expect to be named
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: January 08, 2011, 10:54:13 AM

Author Topic: Should ASBO teenagers be named  (Read 23109 times)

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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #40 on: December 12, 2010, 10:34:35 AM »
ASBO'S DO WORK and saying anything else based on anecdotal information is dangerous stuff.

No, it's based on the official statistics that show 70% of them are summarily ignored, without consequence, by those who receive them.

Those are the national facts. What happens outside your house is anecdotal and, by the sounds of it, highly unrepresentative.

It is perfectly OK to say something doesn't work when it only works 3 out of 10 times.
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #41 on: December 12, 2010, 10:43:11 AM »
By the way, if you want a direct example of ASBOs not working, may I suggest you walk up and down Victoria Road on a late afternoon/early evening. Ian David Pounds - the man in this press release - is frequently found begging, demanding cigarettes and trying to sell open/used bottles of spirits. I doubt they're all relatives or personal friends (mainly because I'm certainly not and he's tried begging/selling stuff to me on several occasions):



http://www.challengeswindon.org.uk/latestnews/latestnewsheader/news/newsitemdisplayv2.htm?itemid=137547

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Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #42 on: December 12, 2010, 10:45:58 AM »
20eyes the first thing I must ask is how much personal experience you have of real Anti Social Behaviour?

Muggins is right ASBO’s do work but in as they work to varying degrees, the success, or not, is easily manipulated for the sensationalism that the press and other like to attach.

Later I will post a real life experience of where an ASBO was said to have failed but to the people who were the victims it was very much a success.

By the way, if you want a direct example of ASBOs not working, may I suggest you walk up and down Victoria Road on a late afternoon/early evening. Ian David Pounds - the man in this press release - is frequently found begging, demanding cigarettes and trying to sell open/used bottles of spirits. I doubt they're all relatives or personal friends (mainly because I'm certainly not and he's tried begging/selling stuff to me on several occasions):

Have you reported this to the Police and made a complaint statement?

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #43 on: December 12, 2010, 11:03:26 AM »
20eyes the first thing I must ask is how much personal experience you have of real Anti Social Behaviour?

I suspect that by 'real' you actually mean, things that happen to you and people you know but not to me?

I've lived in the heart of Old Town for 19 years - trust me, I've personally experienced real ASB. Or maybe
you feel that having a breeze block thrown through your kitchen window and two people climbing in to then pick
up your kitchen knife and demand money from you is just kids being kids?

Pint glasses and bottles thrown at your door and windows every Friday/Saturday night? People vomiting and urinating on your door, your walls and your fences? People running over your car? People vandalising your property? Criminal damage on a weekly basis?

Muggins is right ASBO’s do work but in as they work to varying degrees, the success, or not, is easily manipulated for the sensationalism that the press and other like to attach.

They do not work in 70% of cases. That, to me, cannot be considered a success.

Later I will post a real life experience of where an ASBO was said to have failed but to the people who were the victims it was very much a success.

As above, they can work - maybe in as many of 3 out of 10 cases - but that's not really enough to claim the scheme 'works'. Would you buy a car that the manufacturer told you would only start on 3 out of 10 occasions?

Have you reported this to the Police and made a complaint statement?

Haha. I'm presuming that was a joke? After having lived in Old Town for the amount of time I have, you tend to get a little bored of calling the police and nothing ever coming of it. It's one reason why the officially claimed rate for ABS has gone down in the Old Town area - nobody I know that live here tends to bother reporting it anymore.

As a personal example, the first three times I had my car wing-mirror smashed off overnight I reported it. The only thing that resulted was a police issued Crime Reference Number. The excess on my car insurance policy is £250. The cost of replacing the wing mirror is £280, therefore I don't make an insurance claim and so I don't need a CRN. The last two times I've had my wing-mirror smashed off overnight I've simply booked in to the dealer to have it replaced - why bother phoning the police when even they admit there's nothing they can do and there's no point them coming out to the crime scene?

I guess a lot of my neighbours are fed up shelling out to have their wing-mirrors replaced properly, judging by the sheer amount of cars that have their mirrors affixed by Duct Tape. The irony of all this is that the people who tend to claim that ASBOs 'work' are often the first to say, 'What do you expect, living in a town area?' or the absolute classic, 'Why don't you move then?'. Two phrases that highlight just how badly ASBOs have actually failed.
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #44 on: December 12, 2010, 11:13:06 AM »
Quote
ASBO’s do work but in as they work to varying degrees, the success, or not, is easily manipulated for the sensationalism that the press and other like to attach.

And in that phrase 'they work to varying degrees' is the whole issue encapsulated.

My friend Mellon has taught me that anecdotal evidence is very interesting but it's not the same as real facts in the form of hard data. The data in terms of ASBOs as produced by the  Government and others suggests that ASBOs are not working as well as they should and that the public is not persuaded the ASBO is an effective tool in the fight against anti social behaviour offenders.

The primary issue is one of enforcement and it follows that if there are lots of people in receipt of an ASBO you need lots of support from agencies to be able to determine whether or not the offender is fulfilling their conditions.

In the immediate aftermath of the issuing of an order I suspect the positive effects are clear and obvious, but one week or one month on I'm not so sure - so Bogomill, I am confident you will be able to present a very honest account of where an ASBO achieved its given objectives, and I am sure someone else will be able to do the exact opposite (confirming your initial point)


Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #45 on: December 12, 2010, 11:21:09 AM »
Have you reported this to the Police and made a complaint statement?

Haha. I'm presuming that was a joke? After having lived in Old Town for the amount of time I have, you tend to get a little bored of calling the police and nothing ever coming of it. It's one reason why the officially claimed rate for ABS has gone down in the Old Town area - nobody I know that live here tends to bother reporting it anymore.

Not a joke… if you know this person is breaching an ASBO and doing nothing about it then it’s hardly surprising that this ASBO is failing.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #46 on: December 12, 2010, 11:23:13 AM »
Not a joke… if you know this person is breaching an ASBO and doing nothing about it then it’s hardly surprising that this ASBO is failing.

I know, interesting, isn't it? Maybe his ASBO is considered one of those 3 in 10 that's officially 'worked'... some food for thought.
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Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #47 on: December 12, 2010, 11:35:59 AM »
20 Eyes
You MUST report these breaches, and yes I know its very easy to get disheartened and disillusioned by the lack of action by the Police on these matters. IF you want a better environment to live in then FIGHT for it. I agree it’s not acceptable for people to say “why don’t you move” or “what do you expect living in town” EVERYONE has the right to the quiet enjoyment of their home but sometimes you have to fight to maintain that right.

What are your local councillors doing to help you and your neighbours with this problem? What ward do you live in?

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #48 on: December 12, 2010, 11:39:28 AM »
Our society hasn't got the collective will for a better society, that's why it's pointless reporting these things.

The man won't end up in prison - which is where he should be - so what's the point? It's all just more wasted resources, time, effort and money.

Our local judges refuse to send even violent, convicted, repeat offenders to prison, so what hope a guy that breaks his ASBO by trying to sell a half-drunken bottle of Whiskey?

It was readily apparent even before Ken Clarke was put in charge, but it's even more obvious now that the criminals have won; we're not allowed to do anything about them, the police can't/don't do anything about them and the judges refuse to sentence them appropriately (or even according to their own Sentencing Guidelines much of the time).
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Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #49 on: December 12, 2010, 12:43:10 PM »
This is a real life experience of what happened when an ASBO was granted on a youth, who along with a group of others was causing a great deal of problems on an estate in Swindon. Although some in the final analysis claimed that the ASBO had been a failure due to many breaches, what must also be judged is not whether the ASBO stops the behaviour of an individual (or whether it returns them forever more to a life on the straight and narrow) but whether those whom have been the victims of the Anti Social Behaviour feel that the ASBO has had such an impact as to have improved their quality of life.

Back in early 2000 a group of youths, led primarily by a youth whom I will refer to as Mali, were terrorising daily local residents who lived in and around the local shops. Their antics, which to some might have appeared to be merely high spirits, were seriously impacting on the quality of life of local residents to the point that many were on the verge having mental health problems due to the relentless levels of stress that it was causing. Whilst the main issue was the way in which the group led by Mali hung and misbehaved around the local shops making people feel very intimidated, other examples of their “high spirited” antics included:
Throwing things at passers by from the roof of the homes above the shops.
Graffiti and other damage on garage doors and vehicles.
Damage to the roof gardens and plants of these same residents.
Threatening and abusing behaviour to local residents, often aimed a females in the company of males to provoke a reaction.
Individual incidents that I am personally aware of included throwing a water balloon through the window of a bus at the driver whilst he was driving with passengers on board, placing a concrete block (conveniently left by the council who had been installing traffic calming build outs) in the road for vehicles to hit and trapping people inside the local Chip shop by pulling down the security shutters whilst people were inside (that also being the only exit from the shop) and the owner had to all the Police so they could get out.

Life had become so gruesome for residents that many sought to move, wouldn’t have friends or family around because of the constant problems and  due to stress even started to have problems at work because of the worry of what they would find when they got home. When home they were unable to rest due to a constant state of alertness that victims of ASB get into. Watching TV you always have an ear open to the noises outside, as you lie in bed unable to sleep as each sound from outside realerts your body to potentially what might be going on.

Eventually, and after a very long process, an ASBO was granted and widely publicised on Mali, including the restrictions on where he was allowed to go and when and who he was allowed to associate with etc.

Like most youngster his age he of course didn’t like the restrictions placed on him by the ASBO and, as fully expected, breached it’s conditions on quite a few occasions. Each time it was reported he and his family were dragged down the police station, kept hanging around before being interviewed etc. To my knowledge all of the breaches were in relation to where e should not have been as opposed to what he was doing. He actual behaviour had been very much curtailed and, with the group being broken up (the other group members wound their heads in so much it was surprising they could see above their shirt collars), ASB in the area dropped dramatically, peoples lives improved incredibly and although there were still instances of ASB in the area, nothing like the living hell that they had been suffering for years.

Mali did his ASBO and there was publicity about his having turned his life around, although many suspected that this was a stunt to get the ASBO conditions removed earlier. Unfortunately the ASBO had not set him on the straight and narrow road of life as later he was convicted of a violent assault on another youth for which Mali received a custodial sentence.

In analysis people will say that due to the breaches of the ASBO and his later assault, the ASBO system failed, and in the black and white yes or no terms of success or failure maybe the ASBO could been seen as failing. However IMHO there are two important aspects to an ASBO.
The change (or at least the desistence) of the unwelcomed behaviour of the person causing ASB but MORE IMPORTANTLY the protection of  residents who only want to have a peaceable existence.

In the case of Mali, whilst the behaviour was not completely curtailed what I consider the primary objective, the protection of others, was achieved.

Obviously other will have their own views, but one question I would ask about the data being published by varying departments on the success or not of ASBO’s. Do these figures include a success rating from local residents or just the raw YES or NO data based on the simple question  “List the number of ASBO breaches”

Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #50 on: December 12, 2010, 12:45:20 PM »
20Eyes
you quoted the following article regarding the fact that only 2% of those who breached their ASBO went to prison

Quote
Just 2 per cent of ASBO breaches are currently punished by a prison sentence
http://www.metro.co.uk/news/61949-no-prison-for-asbo-breaching-yobs


The 2% figure for ASBO breaches sent to prison does not reflect how many had other sentence passed on them for breaching their ASBO, including fines, community orders, probation, curfew and tagging orders.
You must remember that prison for breaching an ASBO must be for a serious breach and not just something minor like being somewhere that you are banned from being (even if they are behaving themselves)

I would also like to point out the following from the same article

Quote
A Ministry of Justice spokeswoman said: "The fact that each order lasts a minimum of two years, they are designed to stop a pattern of behaviour that in some cases had meant years of misery day in and day out for victims.
"One, two or even three breaches over the lifetime of the order is not a sign of failure, not when that order is preventing a daily recurrence of serious abuse."


Without wanting you to feel that I am having a pop at your personally, I am honestly not, it is very simple to read headlines or quotes when you are trying to substantiate something without looking at the wider picture or whole article. I know I am also guilty of that at times so please do not see this as a personal point.

But again I will say, you must report the breaches of the ASBO, don’t give up the fight, take heart from someone locally (and a TS’er) that didn’t and won through in the end.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/uk/crime/article6869357.ece

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #51 on: December 12, 2010, 02:01:59 PM »
The 2% figure for ASBO breaches sent to prison does not reflect how many had other sentence passed on them for breaching their ASBO, including fines, community orders, probation, curfew and tagging orders.

I'm sorry, but those 'sentences' are about as meaningless non-punishments as the original ASBO itself. How many community orders are ever fully completed? How many curfew's are genuinely adhered to? It's all just one non-punishment after another and it actively teaches (maybe even encourages) the idea that Anti-Social Behaviour is actually fairly acceptable.

You must remember that prison for breaching an ASBO must be for a serious breach and not just something minor like being somewhere that you are banned from being (even if they are behaving themselves)

Then why would anyone not breach their ASBO if the end result is basically just another ASBO. It reminds me of when people who are banned from driving are caught driving and are given a sentence of... being banned from driving. It's farcical and it's why criminals laugh at the system and laugh at us.

As for your instance of 'Mali' - I'd view that as an abject failure of the system and the failure of those we contract with to protect us from criminals to do just that. As it turns out, if they'd simply put him in prison he'd not have been able to continue ruining people's lives OR violently assault somebody (and that's just the one we know about). How anyone can claim that an ASBO has worked when the person living under it then gets sent to prison for assault is beyond me. Do you have any idea how difficult it is to actually get sent to prison these days?

Using your logic, if an ASBO individual simply moves away from an area and the residents there enjoy a more peaceful lifestyle then the ASBO has 'worked'. I can't agree with that kind of logic I'm afraid.

As the case of Mali very clearly illustrates, the only way to guarantee the protection of the public is for the public to accept that some people must be put behind bars. It is an utter nonsense and myth to claim that prison doesn't work. It does, because it protects the public and public protection must always be more of a priority than fawning all over the criminal and pretending they can somehow be 'rehabilitated'.

Given the laughably high repeat offending rate by those who've passed through our illustrious rehabilitation system, it's blindingly factually obvious that it only 'works' for a minority. Although, even that's questionable, given that the figures for those who do not reoffend include released convicts who been hospitalised, died, have moved abroad or returned home once released (and are therefore physically unable to reoffend here).
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #52 on: December 12, 2010, 05:16:00 PM »
 "It is an utter nonsense and myth to claim that prison doesn't work."

There are plenty who believe that prison doesn't work, if that is utter nonsense, so is saying that ASBO's don't either, that they don;t work is also a myth.


Having two guys break in and threaten and do damage and steal is not just  'ASB' it's break in - stealing and criminal damage.  It is a criminal not civil thing.

If you are not reporting ASB or crimal activity you are part of the problem not part of the solution.
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #53 on: December 12, 2010, 05:50:56 PM »
There are plenty who believe that prison doesn't work, if that is utter nonsense, so is saying that ASBO's don't either, that they don;t work is also a myth.

Well, no, not really, because we use facts to prove that things don't, or do, work.

100% of people in prison cannot commit further crimes against the public - therefore, in terms of protecting the public from crimes caused by people who have already been convicted of crimes, it works. People can say it doesn't, they're also free to think it doesn't, but the facts prove that it does.

70% of ASBOs are breached, plenty of them are breached more than 5 times. So, in terms of a contract that's agreed whereby the person concerned will not behave in a certain way, they are a failure for the most part.

Having two guys break in and threaten and do damage and steal is not just  'ASB' it's break in - stealing and criminal damage.  It is a criminal not civil thing.

Fair point. What do you consider pint glasses and bottles thrown at your door and windows every Friday/Saturday night? People vomiting and urinating on your door, your walls and your fences? People running over your car? People vandalising your property? Criminal damage on a weekly basis?

If you are not reporting ASB or crimal activity you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Not when the reports result in nothing ever happening you're not.
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Offline Tea Boy

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #54 on: December 12, 2010, 07:55:52 PM »
There are plenty who believe that prison doesn't work, if that is utter nonsense, so is saying that ASBO's don't either, that they don;t work is also a myth.

Well, no, not really, because we use facts to prove that things don't, or do, work.

100% of people in prison cannot commit further crimes against the public - therefore, in terms of protecting the public from crimes caused by people who have already been convicted of crimes, it works. People can say it doesn't, they're also free to think it doesn't, but the facts prove that it does.

70% of ASBOs are breached, plenty of them are breached more than 5 times. So, in terms of a contract that's agreed whereby the person concerned will not behave in a certain way, they are a failure for the most part.

Having two guys break in and threaten and do damage and steal is not just  'ASB' it's break in - stealing and criminal damage.  It is a criminal not civil thing.

Fair point. What do you consider pint glasses and bottles thrown at your door and windows every Friday/Saturday night? People vomiting and urinating on your door, your walls and your fences? People running over your car? People vandalising your property? Criminal damage on a weekly basis?

If you are not reporting ASB or crimal activity you are part of the problem not part of the solution.

Not when the reports result in nothing ever happening you're not.

I must say it's never been like that for me, I have in the past lived just off of Eastcott Hill, the occasional broken glass, some singing, perhaps but not much else. I lived in Penhill, perhaps some people's nightmare idea of ASB hell, just around the corner from the valley for 4 years, I got more hassle from the psycho girlfriend than from ASB. Sure kids hung around getting stoned and drunk, some hi-jinks etc. Even with her indoors shouting at me, it sounds like i got less hassle than you do living in old town.

You haven't upset anyone in your area have you? Sounds really bad, makes Penhill sound like a sleepy suburb in comparison.

I feel sorry for you, sounds awful, but it seems to me, that you don't want  to help yourself. Perhaps it's a matter of policing priorities and if it's not appearing on Plod's radar as an issue then its not taking that priority it should.

Bogomil is right bend the local councillor's ear and get reporting, otherwise you are not part of the solution. by not reporting the issue it is in fact doing the opposite to what you actually need , and making the statistics show a decrease in ASB. 
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Offline Mart

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #55 on: December 12, 2010, 08:56:02 PM »
"One, two or even three breaches over the lifetime of the order is not a sign of failure

Bit of a downer if you are the recipient of the fruits of a breach I should think.

What I struggle to come to grips with is how the feckless little sods can apparently build up a decent back catalogue of amateur crime before they get an ASBO and go professional as it were. I do wonder if the people who suffered from the attentions of the pre ASBO little angels are lesser victims that those who get a proper seeing to from an ASBO pro?

Then there's the argument that an ASBO is a 'good thing' for all concerned because it all very pink and fuzzy and sometimes turns out smashing, however the failure rate is one reservation I have

Of the 16,895 ASBOs issued, 9,247 (55 percent) were breached at
least once (tables 7 and table 11); with 6,804 (40 percent) breached
more than once (table 9)


Following on from that every failure has a victim as well as a perpetrator, seems to me that is a very high rate of failure with a very high cost and I for one lack the moral fortitude or sense of forgiveness to be comfortable paying that price. Statistically speaking I wouldn't travel on that airline.

Every failure hurts and it should not have to be tolerated.

The ASBO could be a valid tool in a more civilised society than ours generally appears to presently be. I think we need orange overalls and ditches for a year or two, then, maybe it'll be time for another go.
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Offline Chav

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #56 on: December 12, 2010, 11:34:32 PM »
20Eyes

If you don't make a stand and report any ASB going on, then nothing will be done !
I found that the best way for me to deal with ASB was to email the local Cllrs, the Neighbourhood Policing Team (NPT's), housing officers, those above the housing officers, the local MP and anyone else who I thought that was relevant at the time !

I emailed everytime incidents happened, (A paper trail is always good !)
I attended meetings in my community and bought it up - the gang of ASBO'ees hated me, and I had threats of having my car window screen being put through etc etc !
I even caught one of the youths with the brick ready in his hand and shouted out and the gang scarpered .
I have been called all sorts of names from a distance such as 'slut, whore, slag, nark etc' , but it bothers me none. I still stood my ground and now it has paid off  :santa_afro:

I have peace and quiet since ASBO's were served on the individuals causing trouble.
My complaints were taken seriously and were just the tip of the iceburge

I still have my paper trail and if things start to slip, I will without a doubt make a noise !

So 20 Eyes, use what ever means you have to be heard, because if you do nothing, then expect nothing!  :santa_afro:
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #57 on: December 18, 2010, 08:44:02 AM »
Ah, dear old Ian Pounds. Just as I said above, he breaks his ASBO on a regular basis. And what happens when he's caught for doing it? A night in the cells - like he'd care, just means a nicer breakfast than he'd otherwise have had.

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/8746089.Man_admits_to_breaking_Asbo/

Jesus, these ASBOs really are a complete and utter waste of time.
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Offline bobwright

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #58 on: December 18, 2010, 09:14:41 AM »
20Eyes - Funny how you are happy to use Ian's name but not your own?

The ASBO is not a panacea for all things however if used well it can affect some and make a difference in peoples lives. Selecting individual cases to discredit the ASBO will not reduce its value if used well with certain people. This was recognised from the beginning and that is why it also included a fast tracking element if it failed to make a difference.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #59 on: December 18, 2010, 09:22:27 AM »
20Eyes - Funny how you are happy to use Ian's name but not your own?

'Ian', eh? Do you know him by any chance?

I'm quite sure that the Evening Advertiser would print my name where I to appear in court. However, on an internet forum it's not yet law that people must use the name on their birth certificate.

The ASBO is not a panacea for all things however if used well it can affect some and make a difference in peoples lives. Selecting individual cases to discredit the ASBO will not reduce its value if used well with certain people. This was recognised from the beginning and that is why it also included a fast tracking element if it failed to make a difference.

ASBOs are a waste of time. 70% are breached. They are a pointless and proven FAILURE. Why people insist on pretending they're of any use, when the established evidence shows otherwise, is beyond me.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart