Poll

Do you think people handed an ASBO should be named

Yes
7 (43.8%)
No
2 (12.5%)
I think anyone convicted of a crime should expect to be named
7 (43.8%)

Total Members Voted: 16

Voting closed: January 08, 2011, 10:54:13 AM

Author Topic: Should ASBO teenagers be named  (Read 22255 times)

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Offline Des Morgan

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Should ASBO teenagers be named
« on: December 09, 2010, 10:51:30 AM »
The Adver has carried a story regarding 4 teenagers who have been made subject to an ASBO with some quite serious conditions attached. The big issue for the Adver editor is the decision of the magistrate to allow the teenagers anonymity. Dave King asks 'how can anyone know if the teenagers breach the ASBO terms, if they don't know who the teenagers are?' I have written to the adver as follows:
Quote
  Sir – The decision of a Swindon magistrate to allow anonymity to four teenagers who have been given ASBO’s is as absurd as it is improper. Mr David Rogers the magistrate concerned should today be ‘considering his position’ as his decision ignores clear guidelines from the Home Office and flies in the face of common sense. The primary object of an ASBO order is to prohibit people from undertaking specific actions in specific places, in the case reported in the Adver (SA 9 Dec) one person has also been made subject to a curfew order. It makes life for the police much more difficult when the public at large are unaware of the name or identity of the person against whom the order was made; if the public knew, it is likely that the police would be informed if there was breach of the ASBO conditions.

What Mr Rogers has done is issue an order which has no force behind it, thus making any enforcement of the order almost impossible. He has attempted to appear tough but acted weak, even worse in not allowing the Adver the opportunity to make representation to him, he has demonstrated a superior attitude more akin to that of the 19th century magistracy than the enlightened 21st century.   

The simple rule should be that anyone convicted of an offence in the courts should expect their name to be known. Whilst being the quote of a Lord Chief Justice described as the ‘worst ever’ the age old aphorism ‘it is not merely of some importance but is of fundamental importance, that justice should not only be done, but should manifestly and undoubtedly be seen to be done’ is undoubtedly a statement which would resonate with many Adver readers. The principle that justice must be seen to be done is an essential part of the administration of justice in our legal system. It informs and energises the most fundamental aspects of our procedure and is the origin, in whole or in part, of numerous substantive rules of which the overriding obligation of a court is to deliver justice according to law.

I hope that Mr David Rogers might find it within his compass to properly embrace the principle of open justice in any court in which he sits in future.



Offline Ringer

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #1 on: December 09, 2010, 12:05:21 PM »
I am sure the magistrates have their reasons for not letting the people know who they are, I am sure the police do and the communities that they are being anti social in also know their identity.

In some towns police post photographs of the people given ASBOs in the area they are redacted from. I am sure the magistrates know what they are doing, I wonder what the local councillors think on this matter?

The court has made its decision and I think that may be  final?
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #2 on: December 09, 2010, 12:07:02 PM »
There is something rotten to the very core in Swindon's court rooms, of that there is no doubt whatsoever. And it's not just the criminals.

Rob Ross must thank his lucky stars, every night, to be blessed with such gullible, deluded and hopelessly misguided colleagues.

Quite why there hasn't been an investigation into the routinely unduly lenient non-sentences handed down by Judge Douglas 'I'm told you've given up drugs. Again.' Field I really do not know.

@Ringer: your apparent faith in the actions/decisions of the magistrates is at once both worrying and mystifying.




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Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #3 on: December 09, 2010, 02:33:33 PM »
I was asked by the local press for my opinion on this. As the Police and magistrates HAVE named ASBO kids in the past, they must have a very good reason for not doing it this time.

Enough to say that those who they are terrorising will know who they are, it will be very localised and could be being done to protect those that are reporting things.  It's a very brave thing to do.

Of course the press are miffed that they can't, because they do know who they are.

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2010, 03:32:08 PM »
I was asked by the local press for my opinion on this. As the Police and magistrates HAVE named ASBO kids in the past, they must have a very good reason for not doing it this time.

Non-sequitor.

Enough to say that those who they are terrorising will know who they are, it will be very localised and could be being done to protect those that are reporting things.  It's a very brave thing to do.

If it's very localised and the criminals concerned are being reported, surely they already know who's reporting them? The more people that know who they are, the less likely it is they could pin the 'grassing' on anyone in particular. Not releasing the names actually puts those who are living under this terrorism under greater pressure, rather than less.

Anyway, if things are that bad (and I suspect they're actually worse), why the hell aren't these criminals in prison?

Handing out ASBOs where you're too scared of the criminals concerned to even name them essentially proves what a pointless, soft-option thpse ASBOs reall are. Not that we needed any more proof than we already have. Once again, the criminals themselves will be wetting themselves with laughter at the magistrates, police and their victims. We're so pathetic we won't even name them after they've been given their worthless little social contracts.

Of course the press are miffed that they can't, because they do know who they are.

The press are miffed because they know just what's going on in our local courtrooms, sadly.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2010, 03:39:54 PM »
Came back on, because of I remembered something about one of them being too young to name (20 eyes note: I didn't make this law, not even sure if  I agree with it) 

and another why maybe they couldn't name the others is that perhaps, just perhaps proper grown up legal things are outstanding against them and naming them now might mess that up. 

This is not an opinion, just a point of (possible) information.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline DavidPayne

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2010, 04:20:46 PM »
It is risible that these miscreants are allowed State-supported secrecy - never mind being named, a detailed article in the Adver. with a mug-shot would be nearer the mark.

It would be a huge step forward in the interests of justice for every bench of ‘lay’ magistrates to include a psychologist because what is manifestly missing from our Legal system is the application of human-nature based, corrective restraint.

When anti-social hoodlums were historically locked into stocks in the public square it was for ridicule and humiliation – and what better way to dispatch that one-third of our weekly fresh-food purchases we are charged with squandering to land-fill, than to lob it at the smirking gob of a recidivist.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #7 on: December 09, 2010, 04:25:48 PM »
I'm sorry, but the quotes featured in the Adver article from Chairman of the magistrates, David Rogers, are absolutely and utterly astonishing (not to mention frightening) in their naivety and delusion. How on earth do these people ever reach, let alone maintain, such positions?
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #8 on: December 09, 2010, 04:38:04 PM »
Old boys Club?
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2010, 04:54:53 PM »
Oh Muggins you are such a cynic :santa_wink:

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #10 on: December 09, 2010, 05:37:38 PM »
Old boys Club?

Indeed. It would seem that way, especially for circuit/Crown court judges.

The sooner we move to locally elected judges, the better. Although, given that the coalition seem hell bent on being even more inept over Law & Order than even New Labour were, I won't be expecting such a progression just yet.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #11 on: December 09, 2010, 06:24:13 PM »
The Adver came late today and I have now read the article. Much as I hate to think it, I would say that if the case was fairly reported and the quotes verbatim,  and/or the lad was small for his age, then the judge/magistrate whatever, in the quote to the boy, that his parents would not love him any more and that he would fall of the cliff of growing up decent - then I have to say TOO LATE MATE Sir. 

Name and shame this boy - now, unless there is more coming to him in the way of court cases.  It's not fair to the others that have been named.  The more he does in grown up crime the sooner we'll be rid of him.

I wonder if it was him I could hear on an illegal motorcycle late this afternoon? 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2010, 09:56:51 PM »
A couple of points need to be considered here (and I am fully in favour of naming and shaming)

The Adver has carried a story regarding 4 teenagers who have been made subject to an ASBO with some quite serious conditions attached.

Quote
In the latest disgraceful episode, a 16-year-old from Penhill was handed a strict three-month interim anti-social behaviour order with a string of conditions.

Actually these are INTERIM ASBO’s not the full ASBO’s. The full ASBO’s will be granted at a full hearing when the defendants will have a full chance to have their legal representative review and challenge any evidence put forward by the Council and the Police. Basically these interim orders are like bail conditions and because of the age of those involved, as with most cases of juveniles, matters are not reported, if ever, before a full trial is heard.

Publicising Anti-social behaviour orders guidelines
Quote
  It will usually be appropriate to issue publicity when a full order is made rather than an interim order.
However, exceptions can be made, for example,where the anti-social behaviour is severe,where there has been extreme intimidation or where there is a delay between the making of the interim order and the outcome of the final hearing.
In the case of Keating v Knowsley Metropolitan Borough Council (2004) the judge held that publicity could be used for interim orders.
In these circumstances it should be stated in the publicity that the order is temporary, that a hearing for a ‘full’ order will follow, and distribution should be extremely localised.

I am sure the magistrates have their reasons for not letting the people know who they are, I am sure the police do and the communities that they are being anti social in also know their identity.

Yes the community, particularly those who have been subjected to the Anti Social Behaviour, would have been given a copy of the interim orders. Local councillors will also have been given a copy.

What is prevented is the PUBLICATION of their names and the conditions set against the individuals in writing.
This does NOT prevent the spreading of the individual names by word of mouth, and rest assured this is happening.

And if the full ASBO’s are granted also rest assured that they will be named, along with their photo’s, and truly shamed.

p.s.
I’m sure if TalkSwindon wanted to publish the names then they could be furnished with them. However given the court’s order I doubt if they would be able to.

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2010, 10:28:52 PM »
The ASBO as you say is an Interim ASBO - However it is for 3 months and on a reading of Dave King's article i think it pretty clear this young person is not in trouble for the first time (apologies if i am wrong) 

I accept that some people will be aware of his conditions, indeed i dare say he will be telling his mates as for some an ASBO is worth at least 5 GCSEs.

The point the Adver is amking is twofold. The first that the youth has not been named which really does make the enforcement of the conditions a bit flakey. The second and i think the worst aspect of the whole business is the decision of the magistrate to not allow The Adver to make representation in court.

 

Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2010, 10:47:25 PM »
The ASBO as you say is an Interim ASBO - However it is for 3 months and on a reading of Dave King's article i think it pretty clear this young person is not in trouble for the first time (apologies if i am wrong) 

I accept that some people will be aware of his conditions, indeed i dare say he will be telling his mates as for some an ASBO is worth at least 5 GCSEs.

The point the Adver is amking is twofold. The first that the youth has not been named which really does make the enforcement of the conditions a bit flakey. The second and i think the worst aspect of the whole business is the decision of the magistrate to not allow The Adver to make representation in court.

 

You’ll find no disagreement from me.. as I said in my post

(and I am fully in favour of naming and shaming)

All I was trying to do was clear up a few points that may have been the reasons behind the decision by the magistrate and the very important difference between a full and interim ASBO.

A full ASBO will normally be for at least 2 years, the 3 months is as I said, very much like bail conditions to allow the defence and persecution to put together the full court case. As this is not a criminal matter but a civil one, bail or conditions do not apply and that is why interim orders are normally made.

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #15 on: December 09, 2010, 11:19:03 PM »
How can anyone respect the law when it manifests itself in this way?

The law has no teeth and unless it is enforceable and backed by the society it serves it is not worth the paper on which it is written.

The worst mistakes of twelve years of Labour Government were that they thought they could legislate for anything and everything.  The truth is that more often than not existing law already covered most requirements and the problem lay with the police bringing evidence to court and the legal authorities dealing with crime in appropriate ways.

Now with Ken Clarke's new prison policies being aired I feel we are on the edge of abyce and at the point of no return.   Come back Guido Fawkes all is forgiven.
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Offline Bogomil

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #16 on: December 09, 2010, 11:42:20 PM »
Richard

One of the things that ASBO’s orders did (which are civil proceedings) was bring in was the ability for professional (such as Police and Council Officers etc) to give hearsay evidence on behalf of the victims. This was very important because too many victims are so frightened that without the ability to have hearsay evidence presented to the court their suffering would never be heard.

If ASBO’s were criminal proceddings (or if ASBO’s are abolished in favour of criminal proceedings for breaches of existing laws), then hearsay evidence will not be allowed, people will still not go into the witness box due to fear and gang terror will rule the streets.

ASBO's can work, they just need the proper enforcement.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #17 on: December 10, 2010, 08:04:15 AM »
I’m sure if TalkSwindon wanted to publish the names then they could be furnished with them. However given the court’s order I doubt if they would be able to.

Agreed. There is nothing to stop anyone mentioning the names of the criminals concerned on a public forum.
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #18 on: December 10, 2010, 09:24:43 AM »
I am indebted to Bogomil for his explanations about Interim ASBOs - would he agree with me that consistency in the application of the law is as important as its transparency, if so would he not find a report in today's Adver a little odd.

At Swindon Magistrates Court yesterday a Mr Abdi Muse was given an Interim ASBO and in this case he was named and shamed. The strange thing about this action was that the Magistrate who made the order was the self same David Rogers - odd or what?


Offline Muggins

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Re: Should ASBO teenagers be named
« Reply #19 on: December 10, 2010, 09:59:08 AM »
Firstly, have no doubt, that previous ASBO interim order receivers very soon find that it's no fun and nothing to brag about receiving an ASBO, they might be cocky at first, but the smirk is soon wiped away. their familys usually have no alternative but to move and if they allow their children to continue with ASB they are in sever dangr of losing their homes with no resourse to the borough (if in council housing) for fruther accomodation - it is considered to have made themselves homeless by their actions or lack of action.

Not only that there's not enough of them to brag to each other at any length. The ASBO affects the whole family and there is no hiding place, the longer it goes on the worse it gets. They are not dragged to court and forgotten about, due to their youth, a whole process kicks in, to try to bring this to a better end without them ending up with criminal record. I'm sure you will all agree this is the best outcome, that they should mend their ways. And live on the become contributors to TS?  :santa_grin:

When it get's to the stage of Interim ASBO, this means that there is no other way, it's a last warning. Be sure that this boy will be named at the next one and we only have 13 weeks to wait - if this doesn't make him change his ways. 

Ah, thanks Bogo for pointing out what I had missed - the Interim ASBO.

Des, maybe Mr Abdi Muse was over 18?
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)