Author Topic: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver  (Read 16782 times)

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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #40 on: December 25, 2010, 11:27:55 AM »
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It was to fill a gap that was caused by Thatcher who made councils take a pension contribution holiday from 1990 to 2003 to assist with their funding during her early years of cutbacks to services.

The pension holiday was based on actuarial valuations of pension funds, where some funds were so 'over funded' that there was an absurdity in insisting the companies should continue to pour money into them rather than into the business.

The deal was that in times of plenty the employer could take a holiday BUT when the situation changed the employer would make good any deficit.

In the case of BT the deficit has bulit up over a long period of time and is not solely related to the 'pension holiday' although it undoubtedly contributed - as di Gordon Brown's decision to raid pension funds of tax releif to the tune of £5 billions per year.

The failure of BT and others to remedy the penion deficit is 'criminal' as the money they had an used to fund the business was actually deferred employee remuneration. BT et al have had more than enough years to put matters right and the last Government had the opportunity to force them to correct the imbalance.

I recall when it was clear some employees were going to suffer as a result of company failures, where there was no prospect of the compnay paying back into the pension fund the money they owed, Gordon Brown and tony Blair declared that it was not for future generations to bear the cost (put at £2billions) - however, they soon changed their minds with bankers pensions, BT pensions etc where they guaranteed to underwrite any 'future' costs - irrespective of how much that would cost future generations


Offline moley

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #41 on: December 25, 2010, 12:07:49 PM »
everyone's always had a go at Brown over the raid on pension funds.. but one other part of the same legislation made the pension funds start using updated actuarial information (rather than assuming that people still had the same life expectency as they had in the 1960s).

This was one of the reasons the pension holidays were so crazy.... because the valuations were complete rubbish (as people were already living longer)

Offline Bogomil

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #42 on: December 25, 2010, 01:11:17 PM »
(as people were already living longer)
And Thatcher is still alive… getting her pension

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #43 on: December 25, 2010, 07:05:33 PM »
If I was able to find the adver article, then I would have had it printed, but my wife thinks the clippings I keep are rubbish,
the sale went through when ?. wasnt it a labour council then, so the question ringer is what did theydo with the money, I have FOI the poiint, and was told that the money was split between the pension hole and building 'refurbhishment', I did question that also, but was told that there are no records for that period now held, so they could not say what the 'refurbishment' was,
I 've looked at that web site, posties striking etc, and had a good laugh, I would agree that there are many posties hard pressed to do the job, there are many who 'double up' every day and so get overtime for doing thier own job plus, there are those who because of their title, stand around and do nothing, and there are those who go sick by the day and nothing done about it, or those who are the blue eyed boys, and so get the 'office' jobs, while the others get sent to shaftesbury.. as for black hole well if the pension fund was in the mire in 97, why didnt Labour do something about it and not let it ride until 2000, that article says the RM is in trouble over losing the monopoly, well who gave that away, yes Labour and what have they done to protect the interests of RM, nothing, just go to dorcan and see the lorry loads of mail coming in that we used to collect and get revenue for,  also did you notice in that gorsehill FOI the small print, which although Tesco had to give money to the shopkeepers, there was a clause, which says they cant use the money to the detriment of tesco losing trade. so that was a no win situation if ever there was one. I expect when the bill for the sale of RM goes through the house of Lords, some wag will complain about tory sell off policy, when they have already tried it.......

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #44 on: December 25, 2010, 07:09:49 PM »
Ringer, another point, which you may be able to provide web site details, in the years '97 - 2010, how much did the government actually put into the public pension fund as means of a back up to the funds provided by the employee, which when you think of how many are now in the fund and how many are retired or able to retire at 60, who is paying for that deficit, yes the tax payer...

Offline Ringer

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #45 on: December 25, 2010, 07:25:53 PM »
A good post with lots of points about the sale. But It was sold under labour never said it wasn't however the Tories got in as a minority administration for 6 months and did the deed then. Your next post is without a doubt a provoker short and to the point. ;)

Ringer, another point, which you may be able to provide web site details, in the years '97 - 2010, how much did the government actually put into the public pension fund as means of a back up to the funds provided by the employee, which when you think of how many are now in the fund and how many are retired or able to retire at 60, who is paying for that deficit, yes the tax payer...


Kohima

Your above quote  has made a point that in my opinion is possibly the best post of all your posts on TS. Merry Christmas to you. I have posted this as requested . As you point out the last government created the Pension Protection Fund: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/financetopics/financialcrisis/3537304/Government-urged-to-guarantee-Pension-Protection-Fund.html

It is Tax payers money just like all contributions by government to public servant pensions and of course tax relief on pension contributions.
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #46 on: December 25, 2010, 07:42:37 PM »
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As you point out the last government created the Pension Protection Fund:

The problem with the PPF and the FAS is that they give you a pension 'upto' a maximum of 90% of whatever you accrued at the point the scheme closed.  So you may be entitled to say 50% of final salary but you will only receive a maximum of 90% of the amount with no allowance for fund growth in the the next 25 years.  I know people who were 'promised' a pension of £20k per annum, who becasue of the rules will be lucky to get £5k

The banks had enormous pesnion deficits and used taxpayer funds to reduce those deficits.

Royal Mail has an enormous deficit which will be covered in full by the taxpayer

Offline Ringer

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #47 on: December 25, 2010, 07:45:51 PM »
Des

Thank you for the post that has really added in an ingredient I had forgotten about the banks!
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Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #48 on: December 26, 2010, 10:03:59 AM »
When i referred this through Michael Wills to the Chancellor, I received an anodyne answer as follows -

"The position of banking sector pensions differs from that of FAS qualifying scheme members (in that we have to wait for the FAS to determine what we will get and when we will get it - in my case it has been looking at the position for 7 years because the protection given to banking sector pension schemes is an inevtiable consequence of the necessary action taken by the previous Government to protect the country's wider economic interests"

In short bankers and indeed all bank staff had their pension funds enhanced at taxpayer expense

Offline Ringer

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #49 on: December 26, 2010, 10:23:20 AM »
In short bankers and indeed all bank staff had their pension funds enhanced at taxpayer expense

For me personally that conjures up short changingand pigs snouts in troughs, whilst the taxpayer stands there pockets turned out left skint. Who thought that one up Alan B'Stard? It sounds so New Stateman it must be true! 
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #50 on: December 26, 2010, 10:26:42 AM »
In short bankers and indeed all bank staff had their pension funds enhanced at taxpayer expense

For me personally that conjures up short changingand pigs snouts in troughs, whilst the taxpayer stands there pockets turned out left skint. Who thought that one up Alan B'Stard? It sounds so New Stateman it must be true!

Wasn't it actually Labour that handed all of our money to the banks so that they could keep up their bonus payments?
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Offline Ringer

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #51 on: December 26, 2010, 10:36:11 AM »
Cable and the Tories said they would take it back.. Another song from the 1970s I'm still waiting...  :popcorn:
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #52 on: December 26, 2010, 10:40:10 AM »
Cable and the Tories said they would take it back.. Another song from the 1970s I'm still waiting...  :popcorn:

Once it was given, it was never coming back. Surely that'd be obvious even to the most naive? Cable is now a discredited and failed politician, so anything he's ever said is worthless.
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Offline A Mole

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #53 on: December 26, 2010, 11:48:28 AM »
 
Once it was given, it was never coming back. Surely that'd be obvious even to the most naive? Cable is now a discredited and failed politician, so anything he's ever said is worthless.
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Discredited and failed politician??  To many people, he's more popular than ever!

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #54 on: December 26, 2010, 11:59:35 AM »
Discredited and failed politician??  To many people, he's more popular than ever!

For what, an old man making silly claims (that he could never have carried through) in front of a young lady who was out to stitch him up? Is that what people admire these days?
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Offline A Mole

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #55 on: December 26, 2010, 12:06:25 PM »
No, honesty and a desire to stand up to slavishly corporate greed.

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #56 on: December 26, 2010, 12:58:10 PM »
No, honesty and a desire to stand up to slavishly corporate greed.

I'm not sure the words 'honesty' and 'Cable' belong in the same sentence anymore.

Let's see how Vince gets on with his little 'stand'.
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Offline A Mole

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #57 on: December 26, 2010, 01:57:31 PM »
You're entitled to your opinion.  But millions disagree with you.  To describe Cable as a failed politician is, plainly, false at the present time.  The fact he is still a Cabinet Minister, despite his gaff, speaks volumes.

Offline Des Morgan

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #58 on: December 26, 2010, 02:13:12 PM »
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The fact he is still a Cabinet Minister, despite his gaff, speaks volumes.

The fact he ever became a cabinet minister was only because of the coalition, the fact that he is still a cabinet member demonstrates the cowardice of Cameron and Clegg not to mention their hypocricy.  They didn't wait a heartbeat before the consigned Lord Young to the scrapheap.

Cable is a vain man, how else can you explain or excuse his 'desire' to inveigle two pretty girls with details of his personal thoughts, on subjects which he ought to have kept to himself

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Justin Tomlinson Letter to the Adver
« Reply #59 on: December 26, 2010, 02:27:38 PM »
You're entitled to your opinion.  But millions disagree with you.  To describe Cable as a failed politician is, plainly, false at the present time.  The fact he is still a Cabinet Minister, despite his gaff, speaks volumes.

Yes, it shows that the coalition have been forced to keep the man who said he'd be able to bring it down within their ranks due to wanting to keep up certain pretences.

Great.

Even Cable has described his comments/conduct as 'embarrassing' and yet some still choose to defend him. Weird.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart