Author Topic: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why  (Read 49124 times)

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Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #40 on: February 25, 2011, 12:34:01 AM »
I pledged a donation, of a grand, previously, on this site.
If the ball started rolling, in the right direction, I would do much more.
However I have reservations with the Karsten scheme.
Raising £50k, as an incentive to get SBC on side, is all very well, but will they get on side?
SBC have shown no previous concern for the community heritage of Swindon.
I would not Trust SBC to make correct use of my funding, if renovation did not get initiated.
Karsten appears to have a desire to be "elected", on the back of a campaign.
Karsten has dismissed my portrayal of the historic "community value" of the building, so how come he wants to save it?
It's not difficult to figure out, that personal ego has previously got between himself and the trust. What's that all about?
Basic security dictates, if something doesn't make sense, be very cautious.
Has anyone approached SBC, to ask them, if they'll grow some civic pride, and CPO the building, in exchange for our hard earned cash?
Has anyone offered a similar business plan to the trust?
What sort of restoration / usage are we after?
If it resembles the tower plan, my money's going elsewhere.
I'm not interested in propping up someone's personal ego / election campaign, or personal agenda.
I am still prepared to make a substantial donation. I've previously made it very clear, this building means a lot to me, but seriously doubting this proposal.
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Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #41 on: February 25, 2011, 08:32:57 AM »
Thanks Tobes. I was hoping someone else might realise.
I am asking questions, with a view to parting with funds, in order to save an important piece of history.
I'm not even averse to funding Karsten's scheme, if my concerns are answered and quashed. No insult intended (I'm sure most of us have exercised a personal agenda at some point . Doesn't make it illegal).
It would be nice if, just this once, the resident troll could leave the thread on topic.

I am being on topic, specifically about this thread and your comments - which, as usual, were personal, insulting and nasty.

'No insult' - really?

Quote
Karsten appears to have a desire to be "elected", on the back of a campaign.
Karsten has dismissed my portrayal of the historic "community value" of the building, so how come he wants to save it?
It's not difficult to figure out, that personal ego has previously got between himself and the trust. What's that all about?

You had a snipe because Karsten, rightly, didn't think anything of your portrayal. It's of no surprise that you're now backtracking and can't even admit it.
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline Tobes

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #42 on: February 25, 2011, 09:08:30 AM »
I can accept that ICDT is baiting you - ICDT! :bottom: - but that given, I don't understand why you seem so intent on not only rising to the bait, but actively escalating the conflict. It makes you look and sound a bit like Bob FM over on the Adver forum.

Quote
Karsten appears to have a desire to be "elected", on the back of a campaign.
Karsten has dismissed my portrayal of the historic "community value" of the building, so how come he wants to save it?
It's not difficult to figure out, that personal ego has previously got between himself and the trust. What's that all about?

ICDTs comments about Karsten look like valid opinions which raise relevant questions. Karsten regularly posts on the site - hopefully he'll come and explain the answers. If you know the answers, chip in yourself. Otherwise, needling ICDT about it makes you look like you're exhibiting the very behaviour you're so quick to decry when you're on the receiving end.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline 20Eyes

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #43 on: February 25, 2011, 09:16:38 AM »
I can accept that ICDT is baiting you - ICDT! :bottom: - but that given, I don't understand why you seem so intent on not only rising to the bait, but actively escalating the conflict. It makes you look and sound a bit like Bob FM over on the Adver forum.

Because he thinks he's going to get a free ride. I'm not going to let his bullshit go unchallenged, sorry. The really funny thing is, I made an offer, very early on, to halt all this nonsense - it was ICDT that not only specifically threw that offer back in my face but then immediately went on an unending offensive to snipe, bait and insult me at every single opportunity.

I've no idea what his motivation was/is, but if he continues with his constant attacks, he can expect the same back - in spades. I know he plays the 'litttle old me, I'm just a nice guy getting picked on' schtick, but outside of the loyal faithful here, it's already very apparent that a lot of people see right through his pathetic act.

ICDTs comments about Karsten look like valid opinions which raise relevant questions. Karsten regularly posts on the site - hopefully he'll come and explain the answers. If you know the answers, chip in yourself. Otherwise, needling ICDT about it makes you look like you're exhibiting the very behaviour you're so quick to decry when you're on the receiving end.

Accusing people of doing things solely to 'get elected' and because of their own 'ego' are fairly insulting accusations I'd say. Would you say the same of Bob Wright, Steve Wakefield etc? Would you say it about Chris Watts and his comments over WiFi? No, because they'd be insulted, and rightly so.

Still, I very much look forward to seeing which plan/person ICDT backs with his multi-thousands :popcorn:
"Censorship reflects society's lack of confidence in itself. It is a hallmark of an authoritarian regime." ~ Potter Stewart

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #44 on: February 25, 2011, 09:56:14 AM »
I don't need your "offer". I'm not your victim.
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Offline Karsten

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #45 on: February 25, 2011, 03:48:30 PM »
Hi all,

I have been asked to comment in this topic as my name’s been mentioned a few times.
First off, I don’t mind anyone asking questions. People who do often can’t answer them truthfully.

I did stand in the general Election last year and if I had got elected, I'd have told the dishonourable house what most people think of its dishonest members
(not the honest ones).
My motto was “Never Mind the Bollocktics!”   :WTF:
It cost me £500, but I wrote that off as I got to send a leaflet to all of the people who have Residents Parking, which is another cause I think it worth a fight.
Lot of good that did, I got fewer votes than when I first stood in ‘00 and stood just for preserving MI.

My opinion of politics is that it's corrupt and its jobs for the boys.   
But it’s corrupt due to the indifference of Joe Blogs.
They cheated and lied, but we let them.
Would the Ghurkhas have the rights they have now, if a certain Lady hadn't played their game better than them?
The UK public is colour blind and only sees two shades.   ))))

The reason I initially registered my “Swindon Org UK people before profit” party back in '99 was to pull people to the site so they'd see my mechanics website.
The Advertiser did all it could to misreport why I was standing and the name of my party. 
But I did get the MI as an election issue with all parties promising to save it.  None of them did though.

More importantly I got SAVE interested and informed them that the building should be on the ‘At Risk’ Register and used both my website and SwindonWeb’s excellent pages to highlight it. Trevor’s book came out at the same time and the NMIPT claimed all the credit, but they didn’t call SAVE who manage the At Risk list.

When I first walked past the building in the 90’s it was impressive even in its then derelict state.
I saw the BBC TV report done by Kirsty Wark.  I read how the National Theatre got 4 million to restore it.
Why could that not be done for the MI?
The story of the building of Mechanic Institutions across Britain and Canada/US just wouldn't happen in today's society.
Some people with money like the Gates and other billionaires do similar good deeds, but not in the same way the Victorians did.
Today it's the Lottery, feeding of the poor, that grants money to deserving charities, not the w bankers and well off tax evaders.
It's not the lottery's fault these are often in areas where the deserving don't live, is it?

Is it time to act on the MI or is it not?
Walk past it now and you don't see anything impressive, just boarding and crumbling stone. With corrugated roofing sheets.
It looks like its going to collapse sooner or later.
SBC are 'moth balling' the building to stop the rot.  They aren't repairing the building.
EH have £200k for Urgent Repairs if a group has £50k that's the caveat to get those funds.
After that then there are all sorts of ways to raise funds to slowly turn on the light again in MI.   :wakeup:

Just look how people raise £400k+ for the last Tornado.
http://www.vulcantothesky.org/donate

Look at what the Princes foundation for the built environment can do.
http://www.princes-foundation.org/

In regards to the building being a hub of the community?
Why not, at least part of it?  But would the small community around the building be able to keep a restored building?
I personally favour a ‘mish mash’ of 'residents' from restaurant's to pre-school and charities.
Perhaps an actual home to SwindonFreecyle group where people can take stuff and other people can pick it up.
A permanent location for Art exhibitions held by the Art College?
A climbing tower located in the old fly tower or perhaps an indoor garden with a parrot or two?
Maybe an indoor market?  Nah, that’s been done.
Maybe one of the many Rail engineering companies could be enticed to convert one of the 2 halls into modern offices using exhibition technology like Oracle did in a church in Aberdeen.




Using exhibition technology means it’s not a permanent construction and allowed in heritage buildings.
There could be lots of uses for this building, but the initial stepping block is ownership and funding.
I think most people agree it’s more likely to happen if a group of enthusiastic people own the building.
 :clap:

All this back and forth in TS doesn't do anything.   :bash:
If people do want to talk and try to get the MI out of the political mud its stuck in, then my telephone is 616813 and I'll talk to anyone with constructive views willing to think out of the box.



Karsten Evans


Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #46 on: February 25, 2011, 04:56:31 PM »
Thanks for that Karsten. It's answered most of my 'concerns'.
I'm guessing that working a plan, alongside the trust would be out of the question for you (or would it?).
My original offer (still standing) was hoping to see if some other people might put their money where there mouths were etc.
Obviously the current "economic climate" comes into that.
It's a pity the thread got dragged off topic for a while, but obviously where money is involved, people need to know who they are dealing with etc.
Unfortunately the accusations made would also deter others that might be willing to donate. The victim, of that, would then be the building / community.
I realise that renovating the building would take more funding than I would be able to offer, but if others feel motivated it would be a start.
Thanks again for answering the pertinent questions, and getting the thread back on topic.
I'll do a little more pondering, then give you a call
Proud to be gone

Offline Tobes

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #47 on: February 25, 2011, 06:37:11 PM »
Aha, honest open debate and exchange of opinion between two parties - as predicted. We done both.

Quote
Accusing people of doing things solely to 'get elected' and because of their own 'ego' are fairly insulting accusations I'd say. Would you say the same of Bob Wright, Steve Wakefield etc?

Yes. Clearly. And I don't think either would be insulted. 'Doing things to get elected is their job. Both would (given that they're well balanced and not averse to a bit of self mockery) both more than likely conceed to doing things in certain ways because of their egos. It does *rather tend* to go with being a politician, you might have noticed.

Quote
]Would you say it about Chris Watts and his comments over WiFi? No, because they'd be insulted, and rightly so.

Errr, yes, possibly/probably - although the motives for Chris are likely to be the other way round. His ego was tweaked by being on the receiving end of things which are likely to be exposed as untruthes - and thats motivated him to go into politics. He's now 'doing things' to try and get elected.

Anyway, if any of these three are 'insulted', they're more than capable of dealing with it for themselves.

You are a strange one sometimes

 ::)

« Last Edit: February 25, 2011, 08:55:46 PM by Tobes »
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline bobwright

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #48 on: February 25, 2011, 08:24:00 PM »
Tobes - Doing things to get elected is not our job, it is to serve those we represent. Getting elected because we do our job is another matter. Do we set out to get elected, of course, there is no point in standing other wise. There are no guarantees and it can be a precarious way of ensuring a living. It confuses the hell out of the job centre staff. Whilst the allowance is not called an income there is a stamp and tax to pay however there is no contract of emploment in the traditional sense. A councillors rights are limited, they are not called employment rights. It is difficult to tell the job centre the hours you do as it varies and sometimes some councillors do not know how to 'switch off'. Still it is classed as income by the job centre because of the National Insurance contribution.

I think of the Councillors role as one that should be an honour and opportunity to serve. The people decide if you are wanted or if they want you back. Some councillors get a reputation they deserve and some get a reputation they don't deserve. I work and form relationships with councillors based on their character, I am not sure if people realise how often this means working with the opposition when scrutinising policy or working together on projects.

Everyone has an ego of a kind, I hope mine fits the role. I do take things seriously but I also enjoy stripping away pompous nonsense with humour, that includes self mockery.

I am not sure if I can convince you of my motives in print. I usually like to meet up with people for a coffee to convince them of mine. It allows people to see my body language, allows them to check whether there is a conflict between my words and disposition, allow them to see if their assumptions are right. Sometimes this leads to agreeing to disagree or simply not seeing eye to eye.

Offline Karsten

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #49 on: February 26, 2011, 02:59:51 AM »
Anyone up for an online meeting on how to get things going? 

I don't expect a huge turn out, but it will be interesting to try out holding a free online meeting. :fence:

Anyone can join but you have to register with buddymeeting first I think.


        The following online meeting has been scheduled.
       
        Meeting Details
        ===============
        Meeting ID:          695896 
        Meeting Password:    Isambard 
        Description:         Mechanics Improvement fund raising
        Meeting Start:       2011-02-27  18:30:00 EST
        Duration:            01 Hour(s) and 00 Minutes
        Phone:               800-123-4567       
        Phone Passcode:      1234
        Agenda:
        Following items to be discussed :
- Creation of Group/company/charity?
- How to fund raise for the MI.
- Name of group
- Chairman, Treasurer.
- Open account at Nationwide for fundraising.
- action plan to contact institutions and resource possible sources of grants, ideas for urgents repairs and funding of these, etc.
       
        Please click on the link below to join :
        http://www.buddymeeting.com/join.php?id=Njk1ODk2JG10ZyRTMkZ5YzNSbGJrVjJZVzV6NXg1MjA6NTY6MzE=
       
        Thanks!
        Buddy Support
       
        This is an auto generated email, based on the online meeting request submitted by KarstenEvans , in the website www.BuddyMeeting.com
       


Offline Muggins

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2011, 08:24:21 AM »
Not interested Karsten, would not want to join any group, that

1. Duplicated the work of another
2. I did not know who my fellow trustees would be

If you go ahead I think you will discover just how difficult it is for the present Trust and the amount of work involved in setting up and keeping a group like that going, within the law. 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #51 on: February 26, 2011, 09:11:27 AM »
Hmmmm.......
This leads back to an earlier question.

Is it possible to work this plan WITH the trust?
(as opposed to competing with them)

Proud to be gone

Offline Muggins

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #52 on: February 26, 2011, 09:29:38 AM »
ICDT: To do this job they would have to register, as soon as they do the Charity Commission would say, "why are you duplicating the aims and objectives of the other Trust?"   

It's an excellent way of making unnecessary trouble/work for the present Trust. 

I could use a lot stronger words.  If anyone doesn't like the present set up, they can go along to an AGM and raise those questions/objections, if they are members they can vote on them. If they have already done that and been thwarted then they must ask themselves, are they the one's that are in the wrong?

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #53 on: February 26, 2011, 10:09:40 AM »
Makes a lot of sense.
I must admit I haven't contacted the trust since the last children's fete, where I helped out.
Time to pop in and say hello perhaps?
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #54 on: February 26, 2011, 10:59:25 AM »
Thats the way to do it.   O0
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Karsten

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #55 on: February 26, 2011, 01:43:57 PM »
Thats the way to do it.   O0

Whilst your there, ask why they aren't trying to raise funds when in 98 it was set as a priority?
All that is needed to raise funds is a locked account. To get an account you need a group (chairman & treasurer).

It just needs a simple group, a limited company (look at open source programs) or a charity.
It is pretty easy to set up a charity and there isn't much regulation in relation to proper limited companies.
Which is why I think charities are best used where members are involved in providing a service and help out with the day to day running of the charity.
It's up to the charity’s member to police it.  To do that, they have to be properly notified about AGMs etc.
I joined back in 98 and I don't get notice of AGMs.
Trustees should be elected by more than 20-30 of 2000 members.  1% of the electorate isn't being elected.
Gaddafi probably has a higher % of Libya's population that support him.

I don't intend to duplicate the 13yrs of arguing of the NMIPT.
If you noticed it's all about ownership and raising funds (50k important as its the amount in caveat of the 200k Urgent Repairs grant).
I just intend to try to make it easier for EH or SBC to do the right thing.
As I see it the lack of any worthy group and the 50k funds is a bottleneck that will further hinder any restoration.
If nothing happens in regards the ownership of the MI, any funds raised would go to Swindon charities that need it.

The main problem is public apathy about the building and probably raising the money in present climate.


BTW.
Does anyone have photos of the inside of the MI?  Or a url where I can find the ones taken a couple of years ago by someone entering the building on the sly.
Have plenty photos of the outside. Never been inside legally, but have seen the videos by BBC.
In 98 I did squeeze in the gap in fence by the lamp post and ventured inside about 10m..
Boy it was dark and scary.. You could hear things moving around in there.. Didn’t stay long.. Got out of there, pretty quick.
.. Only other place that scary is the crypt and the hidden basement in Slain’s castle north of Aberdeen.

Did ask SBC for theirs but they are not available to the public apparently.
Would public information’s act apply?


Karsten Evans

Offline Karsten

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2011, 02:37:29 PM »

Well the meeting went well with nobody bothering to even view it.
I did mess around with buddymeeting and found it quite useable for having regular meetings
if people did eventually want to bother.

On another note as I read thru all my papers on the MI from 10 yrs ago I came across the WMF.org url.
Remember that the Railway Village, the Works and the track west to the box tunnel are deemed a World Heritage site.

No one has ever nominated the MI?  Battersea Power Station has been.

http://www.wmf.org/watch/watch-sites-1996?country_name=United+Kingdom&tid_1=All

The currect deadline for nominations is March 15th.
Anyone interested in helping me put the MI forward for World monument status?

Has anyone used Google Earth or sketchup before to create 3D models in google?

Karsten

Offline Karsten

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2011, 02:44:24 PM »
taken on SAt.

Offline Karsten

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2011, 02:45:06 PM »
2 more

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Mechanics Institute Antemortem Analysis - Who, What, When & Why
« Reply #59 on: February 28, 2011, 03:10:48 PM »
"Remember that the Railway Village, the Works and the track west to the box tunnel are deemed a World Heritage site.

No one has ever nominated the MI?  Battersea Power Station has been."

Surely The Mechanics' is the centre of The Railway Village?
Therefore nominated by default?
Proud to be gone