Author Topic: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?  (Read 13703 times)

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Offline Critique

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #20 on: February 03, 2009, 01:58:16 PM »

But the dots must be joined. If an agenda is of interest and people turn up to discuss issues, but they go away feeling they haven't been listened to, or discover later that their contribution has been misunderstood, distorted or ignored, which has happened all too often, no wonder participation levels are low. The notion of Communities in Control has to be given solid substance.

Online Muggins

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #21 on: February 03, 2009, 04:30:36 PM »

I remember the old Area panels and I jolly well enjoyed them (but then people tell me I need to get a life) and got the odd (very odd) thing done through them. From what I've heard this is all 'Connecting People' will offer too, i.e.an invitation to a Cluster (chosen from above with no consultation) Forum, once a quarter (with no consultation) with an amount for local councillors to spend (no comment) at a time and place designated from above -probably inaccessible to everyone especially when they had no part in choosing their cluster-mates. Open to all?  We can tell you what the first two priorities will be without calling meetings, Dog Pooh bins and parking on grass verges!  Blast all the work some people have put in finding out their communties priorities.  PS one of the reasons I so enjoyed those old panels, was I was usually one of only five in the audience so had more chance to put our case - bring 'em on, is what I say.  But don't expect them to 'engage' any more than they did before. Off to get dinner now before I go to another meeting.........for no pay!
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Offline Justin Tomlinson

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #22 on: February 03, 2009, 05:36:33 PM »

To be fair I am sure the clusters will be reviewed and could be changed if better fits become obvious?

Offline Mart

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #23 on: February 03, 2009, 08:10:10 PM »

Pardon me for being obtuse, can we go back to the beginning.

Is this, erm, initiative intended to:

Enhance the role of councillor?

Replace councillors, like the eu is instead of national government but you still have to support both?

To tick a box marked 'Consultation' on a local authority league table thingy that will afffect future funding if you do poorly?

Is it of the local government process, or outside of it?

Will the councillors be able to claim attendance allowance?

In one sentence, what does it do?
As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.

Offline ZPW

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #24 on: February 05, 2009, 11:59:22 AM »

To be fair I am sure the clusters will be reviewed and could be changed if better fits become obvious?


And pardon me for being...? clever ?

How can it be that SeePeeToo is starting with a querie?
I'm not sure hwat a cluster is, but I think it's what we out here call a group.
I also think group membership is voluntary ( what with Muggins not getting his £920, the normal rate for a good Consultant). as the Group is volunatry  - how would one propose firing them? How would one select a better fit? A fit for what? A fit for the outcome one desires?

As to Stellar-Mart's questions

Pardon me for being obtuse, can we go back to the beginning.

Is this, erm, initiative intended to:

Enhance the role of councillor?

Replace councillors, like the eu is instead of national government but you still have to support both?

To tick a box marked 'Consultation' on a local authority league table thingy that will afffect future funding if you do poorly?

Is it of the local government process, or outside of it?

Will the councillors be able to claim attendance allowance?

In one sentence, what does it do?


Ditto

And on to Critique's point

But the dots must be joined. If an agenda is of interest and people turn up to discuss issues, but they go away feeling they haven't been listened to, or discover later that their contribution has been misunderstood, distorted or ignored, which has happened all too often, no wonder participation levels are low. The notion of Communities in Control has to be given solid substance.


Ditto and to bleat on a bit.
All vee good and marvellous in engage with the Community...let's pretend more than the 5 normal peeps turn out and are thrilled by an interesting agenda and a well run meeting.
Many urgent and long term issues are raised and discussed with agreed actions ensuing.. How can this Cluster leader ( who is this person again..? A cncllr? A Council worker? ) satisfy the needs of her Community when it may well be at odds with other Clusters. Will there be a Cluster Head Panel?

Offline Alex

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #25 on: February 05, 2009, 12:33:52 PM »

Ditto to ZPW, Mart et all- having been to many similar "Lets get int touch with the real people and make them think they are being listened to and then we'll conveniently forget or ignore or any of the issues they raise" meetings- I can't help but feel this is just another waste of time- no matter how you dress it up- it feels like another naked emperor.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #26 on: February 05, 2009, 01:43:26 PM »

At the risk of sounding like another one of the usual suspects piling in to apply some more shoe-leather to a poorly thought out idea, but ditto the above comments!
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam... 'Sex alleviates tension. Love causes it.' - Woody Allen

Online Muggins

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #27 on: February 05, 2009, 05:15:49 PM »

Justin should ask his leader about the Clusters, we are told stubbornly that the name Connecting People lala is not up for discussion, that the Chief Executive and Leader are passionate about it.  That the Clusters are not up for discussion.   People will only feel and act connected if they want to and will only act and feel connected to a place if they want to - they can't be forced to feel brother/sisterhood with a district that they can't even get a direct bus to. I should think that this will stir up a fair old bit of rivalry too. However if people do attend the Forum's then they will soon see what their councillors are made of and think very carefully before they vote again - we hope! As one councillor said 'This will be an opportunity for us to show what we can do' another older, wiser Councillor replied 'Yes, but we will be under much greater scrutiny' at least one of them had got it!
Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Online Muggins

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #28 on: February 05, 2009, 05:20:23 PM »

Sorry just read the bits about CLuster Leders, the original idea seemed to be tha the clusters would be around the secondary schools and that the Heads would have played a major part. However it now seems that higher up officers are to be 'interviewed' or already have been, (the information/gossip on that changes weekly), and will head one of the clusters.  See, if we were being consulted we would not need to gossip!
Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Offline Critique

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #29 on: February 05, 2009, 05:26:42 PM »

And when the chips are down, councillors will say 'sod this participation lark, you voted for me 1,2,3,4 years ago. Why should I listen to a few people who disagree with my view or what the controlling group on the council has promised to deliver, let alone have a reasoned discussion with them? I represent the people, not this tiresome group.'
There's an awful lot of convincing to be done.

Offline Mart

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #30 on: February 05, 2009, 05:39:45 PM »

I am convinced that the Chief Executive and Leader do not get flushed, sweaty, increased heartbeat, dry mouthed and sensitive in their private personal toilet regions about another eu sponsored load of box ticking bollocks that will cover off all future requirements regarding consultation for any number of madcap schemes for next eleventy seven million years Connecting People. If they are human they sigh with an air of dull resignation at the thought of another truckload of inane cobblers delivered from above, and wish they that could get left alone to concentrate to making the layer cake which is local government licked into shape so it was fit for purpose. If they have gone over to the darkside they will be seeing how they can best manipulate the new batch of smoke and mirrors.

If the truly do get the sound of blood coursing throughtheir ears and unaccountable stirrings in their regions they should seek help.

I for one might go along to a session or two and be an awkward b*stard and assure my councillor I am certainly not going to vote for them next time.

Repeatedly.

I'm passionate about it.
As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.

Offline Critique

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #31 on: February 05, 2009, 05:51:59 PM »

Good to know somebody is expressing passion about an issue and wants to engage face to face, as opposed to just typing of the boredom, cynicism, deja-vu, ennui, irritation/anger they feel towards yet another attempt by the council to convince its voters that they want them to be part of their game playing.

Online Muggins

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #32 on: February 05, 2009, 06:05:01 PM »

I think I'm in a conversation here with people who don't understand what I'm getting at.  So will shut up!
Remember that it was an ordinary family that built the Ark but a bunch of professionals built the Titanic.

Offline Critique

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #33 on: February 05, 2009, 06:09:55 PM »

Before you do, help us understand what we don't get. What are your 10 one liners that will help focus our attention? You seem to be one of the few can clarify what this is all about.

Offline ZPW

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #34 on: February 05, 2009, 08:36:47 PM »

No Muggins, please don't go.
You seem engaged, informed and generous.
Forgive me my scathing words. I am truly confused as to the objective of CeePeeToo and it's implementation.

What  in your opinion is its' aim?
and.. again in your opinion, what is it that will
1.draw people in
2.satisfy them once there
3.get them back

I presume you are not a Cllr.. if my presumption is right then i ask all the cllrs reading this ( and I know you are), why is Muggins explaining CeePeeToo to us?
This being one of the news stops in Swindon... why aren't you using it?
It's free.

Offline Mart

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #35 on: February 06, 2009, 11:55:56 AM »

I'm irritated because I think the people, processes and means are already in place to engage communities.

It is my personal view that self interest, party politics, tails wagging dogs and great herds of jobsworths and bean counters have rendered 'the system' constipated.

Rather than compacting it further with yet another layer, why not flush through, slim down and fix what we have?
As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.

Online Muggins

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #36 on: February 06, 2009, 12:21:08 PM »

Ah! ah! Thanks, no I'm not a Councillor-I like to feel proud of the things in which I'm involved -and who admires and respects local goverment?0-). I am an aging (but not that old) Community Activist with some successes at getting other people active and involved. I do see the sense and necessity for the 'Real People, Real Power' and the links to that document are somewhere in the postings to this conversation. Because I want the things I and the groups I am with to become sustainable - to go on after me and the other very few people (also aging), we need more people to take an interest and anything that gets people up and interested is of interest to me.  I never bothered about what the politians were up to until I got interested in those things. THEN I bothered!, because I could see how the action of goverment and council reflected on our everyday lives. I also learned how things worked, especially locally. OMG!  If our council could find some way of implementing 'Real People' and giving some control to Communites, we may find that people would be more interested, more would become involved and then eventually more would become more political in their thinking. They would then stand for Council, we might eventually have a good choice of who to select then elect. If they were active citizens before they stood, they would go into it with some knowledge - not just what they thought, but what they actually KNEW. Say what you like the options are not good at the moment, especially in local government.  
Me and other like me, (and I stress -there are few enough of them left), are angry that the Borough, trying to implement 'Real People' using 'Connecting People' will not work.  Especially as they have invented the whole thing (without the very consultation that 'Real People' promotes, which is bottom up and NOT top down) and with the very people it will effect the most - those already active and with the experience to help them do it. Even if they by-passed us (troublemakers?), they have still not gone to the communities and asked how it will effect them. At the time when they should be offering more support they are cutting the very jobs that will help them do it well.  They have repeatedly (mis)interpreted prior legisilation to their own ends, so they find us at the start of 'Connecting People' with hardly anyone to connect with in the first instance.  When things don't work they say that's because they haven't had government funding for it.  I could say more about the funding but this is a bit of a tirade, so will leave that for another time. In answer to your question: I don't think - No I'm sure Connecting People won't, do the job for Real People, because it's nothing new and dynamic.  Again thanks for kind words.  Mart:
I think you are right, the old way of developing communties are tried and tested, people have to have a few wins to feel empowered enough to join in and I don't mean 'Awards' or money in hand, but Real People wins like saving the Mechanics, not the sneers and derision we get at present. It's like we are the enemy instead of the hard working citizens they say they want.

 
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Offline Justin Tomlinson

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #37 on: February 10, 2009, 01:53:14 PM »

There's an awful lot of convincing to be done.


I do agree, I too have many, many questions!

I share many of the concerns you have raised, however in theory IF we can improve engagement that would be a good thing.  I will give it my all to support the cluster my ward (Abbey Meads) especially in terms of trying to set agendas of interest to residents, rather than to satisfy central tick boxes etc.

BTW, ZPW - Councillors' can't claim an attendance allowance.  (It is a set amount, regardless of attendance, number of meetings etc)  Though they could claim additional travel expenses if they wished.  (I don't claim travel expenses before you bash me!)

Offline ZPW

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #38 on: February 10, 2009, 07:23:02 PM »

There's an awful lot of convincing to be done.


I do agree, I too have many, many questions!



Oh My God


BTW, ZPW - Councillors' can't claim an attendance allowance.  (It is a set amount, regardless of attendance, number of meetings etc)  Though they could claim additional travel expenses if they wished.  (I don't claim travel expenses before you bash me!)


BTW JT I, ZPW DDNT ? CLLR ALLWNC - SLLR MRT IZ TH CYNC ( ALWYS FRVR)

Offline Mart

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Re: Connecting people and their communities. Is it real power for real people?
« Reply #39 on: February 10, 2009, 09:06:49 PM »

Why in the name of the mischievous deity that watches over us does a ward need a cluster (I nearly finished that word off, but I'm maturing)

I will give it my all to support the cluster my ward (Abbey Meads) especially in terms of trying to set agendas of interest to residents.

Why does a ward need a cluster? 1 councillor equals 1 ward, seems simple enough to me. This is box ticking, it is meaningless to residents who have a councillor who knows their stuff and remembers who the guvnor is in the ward / councillor relationship, (mmmm) this load of fatuous cobblers places another layer of ephemeral, but strangely impenetrable, nonsense between your ordinary punter and their chances to be heard.

By lending this bollocks any support a box is being ticked, enough boxes get ticked and it will be declared successful merely because it exists.

Weekly waste collections, a few bob bunged at Old Town gardens, an Old Town Library or clusters, mmmm, let me think what I'd prefer.

Fatuous self indulgent pointless shite.

Oh, I've stop being mature. Sorry.
As the light changed from red to green to yellow and back to red again, I sat there thinking about life. Was it nothing more than a bunch of honking and yelling? Sometimes it seemed that way.