Author Topic: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007  (Read 26717 times)

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Offline Dougal

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Swindon Borough Council Starts A Six Week Public Consultation On Dog Control Orders Today  (May 25th 2007)


http://www.swindon.gov.uk/latestnews/latestnewsheader/news/newsitemdisplayv2.htm?itemid=85355



The council plans to introduce Dog Control Orders under the Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Act - and members of the public are being invited to give their views before any decisions are made.

The dog control orders provide councils with the power to make dog walkers pick up their pet's faeces in certain areas and dispose of it properly, exclude dogs from designated park areas, and enforce the use of leads in certain parks and other areas.

Once made, if the orders are not complied with, dog walkers could be faced with a fixed penalty of £80 given by the council's enforcement officers.

David Wren, Cabinet Member for Local Environment, said:


Quote from: David Wren
"We need to hear the views of Swindon residents about the proposed Dog Control Orders - we want to make sure we reach the correct decision for Swindon.

"We care about creating an environment where dog lovers and other members of the community can live in safety and harmony. We see this as a way in which everyone can share and enjoy our open spaces.

"The new legislation provides us with an opportunity to update and clarify obsolete byelaws and re-assess other laws. We believe our proposals are reasonable but we need to know what people think of them."






The orders are:

The Fouling of Land by Dogs - This order will require a person in control of a dog to remove faeces deposited from all public spaces in the borough except for agricultural land, marshland, moor, heath, worked woodland and beside any road with a speed limit over 40 mph. However, faeces must be cleared from any defined, surfaced pathway even in these areas.

The Exclusion of Dogs Order - This order will prohibit people taking dogs into any children's play area, cemetery, bowling green or any clearly fenced and signed area stating "no dogs".

The Dogs On Leads Order - This order will require people in control of a dog to keep it on a lead in the following areas: all public roads in the borough and the footpaths, cyclepaths and verges adjacent to these roads; pedestrianised areas on the town centre; Queen's Park; Penhill Park; the Town Gardens; and a designated area at Lydiard Park, which would include the main lawn area around the lake, the cafe and the barbeque field.


There is also an opportunity to identify other locations that may be suitable for dogs on leads.

To take part in the consultation, members of the public can fill in a questionnaire online at www.swindon.gov.uk or pick up an information leaflet and questionnaire from local libraries and council offices.

Alternatively, they can write to Dog Control Orders, Environmental Health, Swindon Borough Council, Premier House, Station Road, Swindon, SN1 1TZ or call 01793 463725 and a leaflet/questionnaire will be sent out which can be returned free of charge.

The council will accept comments in writing only. They must be from persons over the age of 18, and all personal details, such as name and addresses, will remain confidential.


Maps of the affected areas are available for inspection free of charge at Premier House, in Station Road, during the consultation period.


The consultation runs until July 6th . The results are expected to be announced later this year


The Admin Team have been thus far unable to locate the promised online form at www.swindon.gov.uk

Councillor Wrens contact information is publicly availabe here: http://ww2.swindon.gov.uk/moderngov/mgUserInfo.asp?UID=222&J=2

Councillor Wren will shortly be receiving an invitation to visit Talkswindon, (in connection with another project), but members might like to invite him here earlier to discuss the Dog Control Orders consultation.

Talkswindon has not been invited to help Swindon Borough Council with this consulation so members should not assume any comments made on the forum will be taken into account by SBC. The Admin Team will let you know if this situation changes.


Following Information added 23:30 Friday 25th May 2007

SBC Site now updated: Carrying the following information here: http://www.swindon.gov.uk/environment/environment-animal-welfare/dogcontrolorders.htm

Did you read this page before 12:00 on 25th May? If so, please read again as not all the information was up-to-date.

The online questionnaire will be available from next week.

Swindon Borough Council is planning to introduce Dog Control Orders under section 55 of the Clean Neighbourhood and Environment Act 2005.

The Dog Control Orders (Prescribed Offences and Penalties, etc) Regulations 2006, provide for offences which may be prescribed in a dog control order as follows:

    * Not removing dog faeces forthwith
    * Not putting a dog on lead in designated areas
    * Allowing a dog access to designated areas from which they are excluded

Tell Us Your Views

There is a statutory public consultation period from 25 May 2007 to 6 July 2007 during which you can have your say on this matter by completing the questionnaire. There are several ways in which you can access the questionnaire (all of which are free):

    * Use the online questionnaire
    * If you write to us at:
      Dog Control Orders
      Environmental Health
      3rd Floor
      Premier House
      Station Road
      Swindon
      SN1 1TZ

      Please state your name, address and, if possible, your phone number. We will send the questionnaire to you.
    * Download the advice leaflet and reply using the comment form and questionnaire
    * Pick up a leaflet from Council Offices and Libraries


Please note we can only accept comments in writing on the questionnaire from persons over the age of 18. If you are not able to write in or if you require it in a different format/language then please call us on 01793 463725. We are unable to accept anonymous comments but we will always respect your confidentiality.

Our Public Notice contains the full details of our intentions.

We hereby invite representations on our proposal to make the following three dog control orders:

The Fouling of Land by Dogs Order (Proposed
)


This will require a person in control of a dog to remove faeces deposited forthwith from all public spaces in the borough except for:

    * Agricultural land
    * Marshland/Moor/Heath/Worked Woodland, and
    * Beside any road with a speed limit over 40 mph

However, faeces must be cleared from any defined, surfaced pathway even in these areas (please see FAQs - Fouling of Land).

The Exclusion of Dogs Order (Proposed)

This order will prohibit people taking dogs into any children’s play area, cemetery, bowling green or other recreational area as long as they are clearly fenced and have a council approved sign stating “no dogs” (please see FAQs - Exclusion).

The Dogs On Leads Order (Proposed)

This Order will require people in control of a dog to keep it on a lead in these areas:

1. All public roads in the Borough and the footpaths, cyclepaths and verges adjacent to these roads.

2. The pedestrianised areas in the Town Centre

3. Queen’s Park, Penhill Park, The Town Gardens

4. A designated area at Lydiard Park including the main lawn, the area around the lake including the woods to the east, the BBQ/Picnic field, the church drive and verges beside and the area around the visitors centre, in which dogs will have to be kept on lead from 1st April to 30th September from 10am to 6pm. Outside of these times and all day through the wintermonths they may be off lead but under control.

Maps of the affected areas are available for inspection free of charge at Premier House during the Consultation Period or can be down loaded by clicking on the following links; Queens Park, Penhill Park, Town Gardens, Lydiard Park (please see FAQs - Dogs on leads).

Once these Control Orders are introduced, the current byelaws and Dogs (Fouling of Land Act) 1996 will cease to have affect.

Existing Dog Laws that Remain in Force

All other dog laws will remain unchanged. These include the requirement that all dogs in public places have a collar and tag with the owner’s name and address on it, in accordance with The Control of Dogs Order 1992. See our Dog Law section for further details

Frequently Asked Questions

What is a Dog Control Order?

A dog control order is a new piece of legislation that came into force in 2006 under the Clean Neighbourhoods and Environment Act 2005. This law was brought in to deal with low-level 'Enviro-crime' and nuisance such as littering, graffiti and dog fouling. The Control Orders will replace the Dogs (Fouling of Land) Act 1996 and the current system of byelaws.

Why do we need Dog Control Orders?

Introduction of Dog Control Orders provides an opportunity to consolidate the many different byelaws as well as the current fouling legislation. This will make compliance of the law easier for dog owners as well as only one department for the public to contact. They also would allow the Council to enforce contraventions by way of fixed penalty notices; only using court prosecutions as a last resort.

What are Fixed Penalty Notices?

Fixed Penalty Notices may be issued when a suitably authorised enforcing officer believes that an offence has been committed and it is appropriate. Fixed penalties can provide enforcement agencies with an effective and visible way of responding to low-level environmental crimes, and the Government wishes to encourage their use by local authorities and other agencies. Experience has shown that the public generally welcome the use of fixed penalties, provided that they are issued sensibly, enforced even-handedly and are as a response to genuine problems. Funds from fixed penalty receipts must be used to support the enforcement area that generated them. The payment would be £80 within fourteen days (or £50 if paid within ten days). Failure to pay the fixed penalty notice will result in legal action being taken against the alleged offender. This action will be taken in the magistrate’s court with a maximum fine of £1000. The actual fine level and awarding of legal costs is at the discretion of the magistrates.

When will the Dog Control Orders start?

We are carrying out a public consultation period until 6 July 2007. The date for the new legislation to become effective will be announced in the press and on our website after this but we hope they will be in place by Late Summer 2007.

What do the Orders mean?

Fouling of Land

This order requires dog owners to clear up after their pets and dispose of the faeces appropriately. Failure to do this in any area that the law applies is an offence

No Dog Fouling

Areas of land that are covered:

    * Pavements
    * Defined, surfaced footpaths
    * Back ways
    * Playing fields (including school playing fields)
    * Parks and recreation grounds
    * Play areas
    * Grass verges
    * Grassed areas in residential areas

Areas of land that are not covered:

    * Agricultural land
    * Woodland that is worked (commercial woodland)
    * Grass verges to roads with a speed limit in excess of 40 mph
    * Private property

Please note: faeces must be removed from tarmac, gravel, sand or other clearly defined, surfaced footpaths that run through the above areas.

Is anyone exempt from picking up?

Anyone who is registered as a blind person or has a registered disability which affects his mobility, manual dexterity, physical co-ordination or ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects, and has a dog trained by a prescribed charity (listed in the order) and upon which he relies for assistance.

There isn’t a dog bin in the area, do I still have to pick up?

Yes! If a dog bin is not available, litterbins are an acceptable way to dispose of dog waste. Please ensure it is double wrapped. If neither is available it must be taken home and disposed of there.

I didn’t see it happen!

As with current fouling legislation, being unaware of the offence is not an excuse.

Its not my dog/I don’t have a bag on me

If you are the person in control of the dog at that time then you are legally responsible for it. Not having a bag to pick up the faeces is also not an excuse; you should always take a bag out with you

There’s a problem with fouling in my area, who do I report it to?

Please e-mail dogwarden@swindon.gov.uk direct, please do not use the control order questionnaire for any other matter.

Exclusion of Dogs Order

Again this applies to whoever is in control of the dog. They must not take the dog onto the following land: - Any children’s play area, cemetery, bowling green, skateboard park, putting green or any other agreed area that is fenced off and clearly signed "Dog Exclusion Area" The sign may be in words but most would be a picture (please see the example, pictured).

Example sign meaning 'no dogs allowed'

New play areas will all be securely fenced and signposted. To take a dog onto such land would be an offence.

Is anyone exempt from this Order?

Anyone who is registered as a blind person or has a registered disability which affects his mobility, manual dexterity, physical co-ordination or ability to lift, carry or otherwise move everyday objects, and has a dog trained by a prescribed charity (listed in the Order ) and upon which he relies for assistance.

Dogs on Leads Order

This will require those in control of a dog to keep it on a lead when walking along a public road anywhere in the borough as well as any footpath, cyclepath, bridleway, pavement and grass verge that run alongside a public road.

This does not apply to:

    * Private Roads (which must be clearly marked as a private road)
    * Public footpath, cyclepath or bridleway that is not adjacent to a public road
    * Public Open Spaces and Parks (except those listed below)

Persons in control of a dog will also have to keep it on lead in the following town parks:

    * Queen’s Park,
    * Town Gardens
    * Penhill Park
    * A designated area at Lydiard Park with specific restrictions between 1 April to 30 September, 10:00 to 18:00.

Maps showing the location of these parks can be viewed at Premier House and at the bottom of this page to download.

The pedestrian area in the Town Centre will also be included in the Control Order requiring dogs to be kept on leads.

There will be signs at the entrances to the parks and the Pedestrian Areas in the Town Centre showing that dogs must be kept on leads. These may be written signs or in picture form (see example, pictured).

Example sign saying 'KEEP DOGS ON LEADS'

The signs at Lydiard Park will also state the times of the day/months of the year that the order applies to.

Failure to put a dog on lead in these areas would be an offence.

Is anyone exempt from this order?

Yes, dogs trained by a prescribed charity upon which the owner relies on for assistance – see the Dogs on Leads Order  for list of prescribed charities

The order also states that it does not apply if the owner/handler has a “reasonable excuse”. This would be at the discretion of the officer but would usually be acceptable if the dog was being used for working purposes such as:

    * A pack of organised hounds involved in a legal hunt
    * Dogs being used for sporting purposes, e.g. flushing game for lawful shooting
    * Dogs being used for the capture or destruction of vermin with the permission or agreement of the landowner
    * Dogs while being used for the driving or tending of cattle, sheep or other animals
    * Dogs while being used on official duties by a member of Her Majesty's Armed Forces or Her Majesty's Customs and Excise or the police force for any area
    * Dogs while being used in emergency rescue work

I use an extandable lead, is this acceptable?

There are no plans to regulate the type or length of lead required but we do recommend a non-extendable strong lead made from nylon or leather as this gives greater control than the extending leads. Long training leads are available if you wish to run your dog on a longer line.

What about other parks in the town?(eg. The Lawns, St Marks Rec., Faringdon Park, Coate Water etc.)

Only the areas listed are being considered for this order. Dogs may run off lead in the other parks as long as they are kept under control (see Dog Law for details about dogs acting out of control). As part of the consultation you can volunteer other parks that may benefit from this order.

Why do I need to keep my dog(s) on a lead in these areas and not others?

The parks listed in the order are relatively small, some are surrounded by busy roads and all are heavily used by the people who do not own dogs as well as dog owners. It is a way of ensuring that dog lovers and other members of the local community can enjoy the parks together.

Why not keep dogs on leads everywhere in the borough?

It is important for most dogs' physical and mental well-being to have off lead exercise. Many dogs require vigorous exercise that would not be possible on lead and this could therefore compromise their health and behaviour. As stated above, owners/handlers must still keep control of their dogs even when off-lead. Any complaints of dogs acting dangerously out of control should be passed as soon as possible to the police (telephone 0845 4087000) and/or Swindon Borough Council (telephone 01793 466068).

Why is Lydiard Park included in the Order?

In response to many complaints received about dogs acting out of control at Lydiard Park, we have decided to include part of it in the order. The areas covered are those that are exceptionally busy in the Summer months with people having picnics, playing games, sunbathing etc. There are large areas of ground immidiately adjacent to these where dogs can run off lead without disturbing people. The order will also apply to the times when the main lawn etc. is commonly used - i.e. during the summer months and at peak times. Also, Lydiard Park is a National Heritage Site and is actively managed at thiese times with specific events being being held in these areas (e.g. Party in the Park, theatre performances).

Further Information

Further national guidance is available using the following links:

    * The Dog Control Order (Procedures) Regulations 2006
    * Defra Guidance on Dog Control Orders

Documents Available for Downloading

Public Notice

Proposed Control Order Fouling on Land

Proposed Control Order Dogs Exclusion

Proposed Control Order Dogs On Leads

Map of Control Area Queens Park

Map of Control Area Town Gardens

Map of Control Area Penhill Park

Map Of Lydiard Park

 
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 11:28:09 PM by Admin »


www.talkswindon.org is a venue, not a person or political entity. As such, it hopes to encourage input and discussion on any topic, from all walks of Swindon life.   

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #1 on: May 25, 2007, 02:52:40 PM »
Nope....I can't find the online form either.

Q: If SBC are only accepting submissions in writing, where do 'online' form fit in legally?, they're obviously not signed by the individual who submits the  form....

I wonder whether SBC would accept submissions by the Talkswindon survey site, if its the submissions include name, address and email address?, if so TS could help this consultation along quite a bit.

Offline kecl

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #2 on: May 25, 2007, 03:11:40 PM »

While, if this goes ahead after consultation it will be a good thing, the problem is all the new orders, rules, laws or whatever are only as good as the enforcement that goes with it. Enforcement is one department that from my experience lacks the backbone to carry it out. :bash:

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Offline Jarvis

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #3 on: May 25, 2007, 03:33:54 PM »
Only if the consultation is actually a proper consultation and not simply a fig-leaf to cover a pre-determined policy outcome kecl.

I have some immediate issues with this SBC 'consultation'.

1. 6 weeks is noooooowhere near long enough to consult the public.

2. David Wren is single-handedley responsible for foisting an unneccessary council tax increase on Swindonians....just when the cabinet had agreed upon the budget he, in his role as vice chairman of the fire authority, voted against his colleagues in cabinet and added 1% to the fire authorities precept. What did this mean to our council tax bill?....about £16 a year for band D and £10.20 a year for band C houses. Average those figures across approximately 58,000 houses in the borough and we're talking a lorra, lorra money.

This was odd behaviour from Councillor Wren, especially when you consider that the Fire Authority didn't actually manage to spend it's budget last year.

3. Councillor Wren was all for 'Chipping' wheelie bins in the Borough, (as preparatory work for 'pay as you throw' waste charging), and only appeared to back down after being challenged by several Conservative Councillors.

From what I can gather Councillor Wren has a delightful habit of happily adopting Central Government, (i.e Labour), policies and trying to slip them through quietly and without proper scrutiny.

There's no harm in examining dog ownership and the manner of exercising them, providing it's examined in a fair and transparent manner. I have no confidence that this consultation will be either fair or transparent, its time frame is just too damned short for starters.


The manner in which this consultation has been unveiled, rolled out or however you'd like to describe it, is worryingly similar to the way New Labour 'consult' the public. Perhaps this is a habit Councillor Wren dragged with him when he crossed the floor from the Labour Party?.

I'd like to be involved in any campaign to get the consultation period extended to sensible time period, e.g six months to a year, (look at the residents parking consultation, about a year old and still going), and publicised/promoted in such a way as to attract and invite opinion from every corner of the Borough.

Standing outside Debenhams on every Friday for the next six weeks and advertising an online form which doesn't seem to exist is NOT consulting the public Councillor Wren.

Councillor Wrens email address is d.wren1@ntlworld.com  and I would urge both members of Talkswindon and guest viewers to email him directly and get the timeframe of this consultation extended.

I'll also be emailing/phoning my own Councillors to discuss this, and see whether they are prepared to exert some pressure to get the consultation period extended to something sensible.

Admin note: post edited at the request of the member to correct a typo. (members self-edit time had elapsed)
« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 05:46:44 PM by Admin »

Offline kecl

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #4 on: May 25, 2007, 04:17:38 PM »
Only if the consultation is actually a proper consultation and not simply a fig-leaf to cover a pre-determined policy outcome kecl.

Agreed, I was thinking on a personal level.

Living with a dog boutique at the back of my property, the path at the side of my house and the alley ways are a toilet for many of the pampered pooches. It never ceases to amaze me at the amount of people who are outraged if you dare to have a quiet word with them about cleaning their dogs mess up or asking them why they feel it is ok to let their dog piss on my back gate,  because funnily enough, by the rules of physics, gravity allows it to flow into my back yard.


Quote
I'll also be emailing/phoning my own Councillors to discuss this, and see whether they are prepared to exert some pressure to get the consultation period extended to something sensible.

Not much chance of being able to ask at least one of the Central Councillors to do this, as she is Mrs Wren. This is the same Mrs Wren who also by 'coincidence'  thinks it is quite acceptable for everyone in terraced houses to have a wheelie bin.
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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #5 on: May 25, 2007, 05:23:51 PM »
We understand that the online questionaire will look like this.


Order 1: Fouling of land


              Questionaire Statement                                                                                         Allowed Answers
The areas of land covered by the order are acceptable                                                 Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
The areas excluded from the order are acceptable                                                     Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this






Order Two - Exclusion of Dogs from Land
              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
The areas described in the order where dogs will be prohibited are acceptable               Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this






Order Three - Keeping of dogs on leads
              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
It is a good idea for dogs to be on lead next to a road                                                       Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
It is acceptable for dogs to be kept on lead in:
1. Queen's Park                                                                                                           Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
2. Faringdon Park                                                                                                         Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
3. Town Gardens                                                                                                         Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
4. The pedestrian area in the Town Centre                                                                       Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
5. Penhill Park                                                                                                              Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
6. At certain times: a designated area at Lydiard park including the main lawn
BBQ field, visitors centre and the woods to the east of the lake                                             Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this
It is fair for dogs to be on leads in the stated area at Lydiard Park between:
1st April and 30th September each year from 10am to 6pm                                                   Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this




              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
Are there other Parks or Areas in Swindon that you feel would benefit from this order?                      A comment box is provided here





              Questionaire Statement                                                                                                        Allowed Answers
The orders are a good idea                                                                                              Agree   :   Disagree   :   No Feelings on this



We do not yet have an example of the 'on the street' version being offered in the town centre or supporting maps/documents detailing exact areas.

« Last Edit: May 25, 2007, 10:51:26 PM by Admin »
www.talkswindon.org is a venue, not a person or political entity. As such, it hopes to encourage input and discussion on any topic, from all walks of Swindon life.   

rob-magic

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #6 on: May 25, 2007, 08:47:16 PM »
I am aligned with your aproach Jarvis, and would like to add the perspective of the increase of laws and restrictions being pushed through the system to reach us all, to now include an official interference and policing strategy involving the time spent with man's best friend. Another fundraiser and attack on freedom legalised, like speed cameras, speed humps.

Sure, nobody wants to see mess everywhere but is £79.99 a fair jump from number one (spending a penny) to number two?

A heavy handed attempt at a solution if you ask me. What about the owners having to give up some time (like an hour or two) instead?

Fines only affect the poor.


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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #7 on: May 25, 2007, 09:28:27 PM »
I welcome this consulation but agree that 6 weeks is too short.  It's difficult to comment on the quality of the questionnaire without seeing the maps etc, but in general I support the council's approach and also the need for some form of penalty on lazy dog owners, after all they're the only ones that need to worry about this...I just hope that it's not toothless and there will be people to enforce this.

the health consequences of dog shite are quite disturbing and there's nothing worse than walking in it.   >:(

Offline Alligator

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consulation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #8 on: May 25, 2007, 09:30:55 PM »
Not much chance of being able to ask at least one of the Central Councillors to do this, as she is Mrs Wren. This is the same Mrs Wren who also by 'coincidence'  thinks it is quite acceptable for everyone in terraced houses to have a wheelie bin.

Well she'll be more interested in North Swindon, after all that's where her political future lies....I don't think she ever really understand the issues of Central residents, so roll on April 2008 when we can say good riddance to her.

Offline Lynda

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #9 on: May 25, 2007, 10:36:24 PM »

I am missing a piece of intelligence: what constitutes a consultation?

The six week survey in the town centre is, I assume, part of the consultation process not the whole of it. What does the rest comprise of?


Lynda  NO2ID 07802 151464  Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Offline Tig

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #10 on: May 25, 2007, 11:22:32 PM »
 I think they are being very cleaver with this, most people including responsible dog owners would agree with clearing up after their dogs, but not with the other two points.  i can't help but notice that most responces on here have reffered to the dog poo issue and not the other two, now if this is what happens generally over the 6 weeks then the result will be seen as all 3 should be inforced were actually most will be commenting on the poo and not the exclusion of dogs and keeping them on leads. by inforcing the last two could see more agresive dogs as they are not getting the nessary exercise. the poo issue should be delt with separate to the ohers.

Offline Jess

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #11 on: May 25, 2007, 11:34:39 PM »
I am aligned with your aproach Jarvis, and would like to add the perspective of the increase of laws and restrictions being pushed through the system to reach us all, to now include an official interference and policing strategy involving the time spent with man's best friend. Another fundraiser and attack on freedom legalised, like speed cameras, speed humps.

Sure, nobody wants to see mess everywhere but is £79.99 a fair jump from number one (spending a penny) to number two?

A heavy handed attempt at a solution if you ask me. What about the owners having to give up some time (like an hour or two) instead?

Fines only affect the poor.



Rob-Magic - yes, better to get the owners of shite machine to empty dog-do bins for a couple of saturdays.

Offline James

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #12 on: May 25, 2007, 11:48:37 PM »
Quote
The six week survey in the town centre is
...
Going to miss a lot of dog owners, as they will be walking their dogs...

James

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #13 on: May 26, 2007, 12:26:38 AM »
I think they are being very cleaver with this,

I wouldn't call it clever, I'd call it arrogant.

This 'consultation' is described as being a 'statutory six week consultation'.  Six weeks isn't long enough, nor is the 'questionaire' designed to do anything other than funnel the respondent into reponding in a positive fashion to the proposals.....which aren't really 'proposals' at all. In the mind of David Wren the proposals are already a reality.

The key to this style of consulation is in the first three letters of the word. It is a CONsultation.

Fundamentally there several good points in the 'proposals'......it's probably not a good idea to have loose dogs running around the town centre, next to highways and across the lawns at Lydiard Park on a Sunday afternoon when people are enjoying a picnic.  I know I wouldn't entertain letting our three mutts do any of the above.

But.....apart from vague reference to 'many complaints', what's the empiral data being offered to support the need for blanket laws?.  What is appropriate for Old Town Gardens may not be appropriate, or needed for Lydiard Park.

Haven't we already got laws for Dog Fouling?....£1,000 fine if I'm not mistaken, how many prosecutions have there been in the borough for dog fouling offences in the last 12 months?, is the law even being enforced currently, if not, why not...and what will make these new laws more effective?.

How many incidents of dog bites and dog fights have there been in the last 5 years?.

I'm a dog owner and I have no problem at all with a borough-wide consultation on what the non-dog owning population expect from me, and what I expect from the borough in return for my responsible behaviour....

....but I do have a problem with a faux-consultation.

Like the Identity Cards Act 2006 I believe Dog Control Orders are being introduced without empirical evidence to support the claims being made to justify their imposition.

I'm not denying for a moment that central might have a dog shite problem.....but Lydiard certainly doesn't, in fact you'll often see dog owners picking up fox shit, (dirty disgusting smelly stuff that it is), because they don't want da townies mistakenly identifying it as Pekinese Poo and blaming dog owners.   

No one likes Dog poo on pavements....it's a fact...and it's possible that no one hates it more than the vast majority of decent dog owners. It reflects badly on all of us.

Dog control orders and this CONsultation don't allow for any separation of the various issues, they are all or nothing.

Jarvis was onto something with his remarks about David Wren....his socialist roots are showing through...and this is the third time since I moved to Swindon that his name has been attached to a scheme being handled in a Nu Labour fashion.

1. Chipped wheelie bins....only halted by the swift and passionate intervention of his cabinet colleague.

2. Central must have Wheelie bins....despite most of centrals residents quite reasonably voicing opposition to Cllr Wrens plan.

...and now this.

Lets see what develops, but I'd be surprised if this consultation goes as smoothly as he undoubtedly hopes.

God knows it doesn't deserve to.

 

Offline Tobes

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #14 on: May 26, 2007, 01:23:54 AM »
This is an example of CLASSIC spin.

Invent a problem, a classic potential folk devil - ie 'out of control dogs' - propose a solution, 'consult' (selectively) with the public, using a loaded questionaire, an unrepresentative sample in an unrepresentative area - and an impossibly short timescale (which as James so eloquently expresses, does not target dog owners for starters!)... then using potentially skewed results and in a fanfare of 'we're helping YOU' publicity, wheel out a 'solution', which as usual is characterised by YET ANOTHER set of authoritarian rules which will be imposed by jobsworths wielding a revenue generating system of fines...

Its positively Snelgrovian - just like the issue of mini-motos, the solutions already exist under statute: Its already against the law to leave your pooches uncollected crap on the pavement (just like we already have rules regarding MOTs, driving licenses, road tax and insurance to target the mini-motos). Once again, we have exitsting rules which simply aren't being enforced. But hey, lets just rubber stamp a whole new bunch of bylaws - and get the council tax payers to fund a new team of 'dog spys'!

As for regarding every dog as some sort of out of control killing machine, thats the stuff of overly protective paranoid dog-o-phobics. Come back Dwokin with her theory that every man is an inherent rapist! I mean, come on: we've been living quite happily with dogs in urban environments for hundreds of years: Dog owners are part of the community - and animal welfare demands that just as they should be responsible about their charges, so should their dogs have the right to run free within public spaces. Should dog owners be responssible? Yes. Does anyone like dog poo? No. Are any of these things any worse than they've been in the past? No. But lets not extent some sensible tollerance and let that get in the way  of another council department, some more employees and some nice headlines involving the phrase 'cracking down'! Honestly, the farting aboiut of some of them is going to diminish the good work that others have done of things like tackling taggers!

From what I understand, given the population of Swindon, any incidents involving dogs and the public rare - serious incidents are incredibly rare. As there's no groundswell of lobbying or opinion on this issue either way, it would seem that someone somewhere is doing a pretty good job of trying to create one. It wouldn't be the self same people who are sitting on a ready made soultion, courtesy of those sponsors of authoritarianism in central government, would it perchance? Is it cooincidental that the Adver featured a ridiculously overblown story a few weeks back about some woman who's daughter was accidentally knocked over (but apparently completely unharmed) by a boisterous dog? (presumably, she would like to see the same restrictions applied to exhuberant kids and see them permanently muzzeled and reigned in public too?)

I'm disturbed that Wrens name is apparently associated with yet another policy which appears to have had its roots in Labour. HE has socialist roots? Is this true? His public views on the forthcoming stink-a-thon acertainly seem to have provided the bedrock for potentially believing that link. This sort of things is just the icing on the cake. Why have the tories given him such a high profile role, when he apparently seems so concerned with applying the guidance of central government?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline swindon lad

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #15 on: May 26, 2007, 05:39:57 AM »
Jarvis was onto something with his remarks about David Wren....his socialist roots are showing through...and this is the third time since I moved to Swindon that his name has been attached to a scheme being handled in a Nu Labour fashion.

1. Chipped wheelie bins....only halted by the swift and passionate intervention of his cabinet colleague.

2. Central must have Wheelie bins....despite most of centrals residents quite reasonably voicing opposition to Cllr Wrens plan.

...and now this.

Lets see what develops, but I'd be surprised if this consultation goes as smoothly as he undoubtedly hopes.

God knows it doesn't deserve to.

 

IMHO David Wren is the most effective Labour Cllr - seems to be introducing as much unpopular Labour legislation under the cover of being a Tory in Swindon as he can!

I do have a lot of time for Rod Bluh as leader of SBC but I think he's been done here...

Lucky for the Tories that neither Kevin Small's ever reducing band of followers have the ability David Wren has.

Offline Jarvis

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #16 on: May 26, 2007, 06:20:32 PM »


Why aren't existing by laws being properly enforced?.

Dog owners are already required to pick up their dogs droppings, (and most of them do), and if they don't the penalty is either £500 or £1,000 isn't it?.

The dog control orders carry a much lower penalty...£80. Why?....if a really ignorant and inconsiderate owner won't scoop da poop to avoid a £1,000 fine, why would £80 worry them?.

Why don't SBC try enforcing the existing laws for a while before rushing to implement every last little bit of the Clean Neighbourhoods and environment Act 2005?

Many of the anti-dog brigade might be surprised where implementing section 55 (dog control orders) will lead. What will the enforcement officers be doing when there's no poochs pooing on their patch?, they'll be watching, and fining, everyone else for any other offences under the Act, that's what.

 

 

Offline Tobes

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #17 on: May 26, 2007, 07:32:12 PM »
We seem to be living in an age where we are developing TWO police forces - one which concentrates on statute - and another more insudious one, devised to implement local government bylaws and which manages council parking, and the enforcement of local bureacracy. The danger with the council 'pseudo police' is that they have to show something of a financial return for their efforts - to balance budgets, they have to be essentually self-funding through the fines they place. The argument will be that they don't make a profit - but all of these new 'forces' seem most definately to concentrate on activity which generates an efficient return - which then justifies their continued existance. I guess thats why the parking nazis can justify sticking tickets in a quiet residential street at 6.30 in the morning - but you won't EVER see one doing the same on a Sunday.

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #18 on: May 27, 2007, 03:12:35 AM »
Perfect Jess!

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Re: SBC Dog Control Orders Consultation Starts Today - May 25th 2007
« Reply #19 on: May 28, 2007, 12:13:31 AM »
 :( :(

I have to agree with previous postings that this all this has the hallmark of a New Labour initiative and I thought we had a
Conservative Administration in Swindon, still I could be wrong!! :WTF:

This is yet another example of ten years of 'sticking plaster legislation' which will be on the statute books but will be UNENFORCEABLE AND NOT SUPPORTED BY THE COMMUNITY IT IS SUPPOSED TO SERVE.  Or is this more sinister in as much that it is designed to raise funds for the council's coffers?

Surely it would be more effective to invoke the legislation that is in place, LEGLISLATION THAT PRODUCED A SUCCESSFUL PROSECUTION OF THE PRINCESS ROYAL WHEN HER DOG ATTACKED A MEMBER OF THE PUBLIC. 

Point made I think!!

And while we are about it if the police cannot attend to burgleries and criminal damage why should we dissipate an already ineffective police force by adding to their legal responsibilites?

Just get on with dealing with the reported £8,000,000 worth of Grafitti first, Council - you have an awful long way to go to remove Swindon's reputation of being the Grafitti capital of the South West!! 

And you could also empty the overflowing and replace wrecked doggy bins while you are about it!!

I wonder if the Lib Dems have an opinion on this subject? - They are obviously being deflected elsewhere like trying to justify their lack of interest and attendence of the Scrutiny Conference or was that because Stan 'the man' Pajak wasn't given the Chair of Scrutiny having expressed interest in it?