Author Topic: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?  (Read 7110 times)

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Offline Tobes

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The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« on: September 16, 2015, 11:35:22 AM »
As someone not waving either or red or blue rosette, its been highly amusing to watch the extreme naivety and hopes and aspirations of my more lefty friends projected onto his bearded face.

Personally speaking, I like the idea of a man for whom principals are more important than popularity... but even before he steps up to his first PMQs today, I can't help but think that the first very obvious cracks are starting to show in the positive rendering which so many desperately hopeful people have plastered him.

What are principals in this context?

He is a famous republican. Fair enough... Though mid way through his leadership campaign, it became known that pursuing republicanism 'is not a fight he's going to pursue'. Oh? And whys that then Jezza?

... and now we have images of him attending an official ceremony in the guise of his new role. He's chosen to attend... he chooses to stand for the National Anthem.... but *not* to sing.... and then its reported today that he's decided to sit on the Privvy Council, despite it requiring him to utter an oath which any serious republican would clearly see would make him an overt hypocrite...

Seems to me at least that his principals are as rubber as any of the rest of his political bed-fellows - and that flexibility will be made even more obvious by the lionization by the new wave of lefty hopefuls who've joined the party.

Life isn't simple - but the politics and ideology of the left often seem to want to try and make it childishly so.

Chickens in this instance, appear to be coming home to roost.


I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Tobes

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #1 on: September 16, 2015, 02:11:52 PM »
Just seen PMQs

Gotta say... Corbyn has played a blinder. Its not about his personal performance - but the sheer genius of asking questions from the public. Not only is that a laudable example of democratisation, but its also a very welcome reintroduction of context and reality into the chamber.

so its a  :clap: from me on that front
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Donian

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #2 on: September 16, 2015, 03:55:12 PM »
As Laura Kuenssberg put it:

Quote
For David Cameron it was a chance to expound on the government's justification for doing what they are doing. In essence, "thank you for that very interesting question about our changes to the welfare system my right honourable friend. Now let me explain, as I have on many occasions, why I think my approach is terribly sensible".

David Cameron could smoothly field questions like that all day. And without questions that bite, the prime minister is not really held to account


http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-34272331

Corbyn was just giving Cameron a platform and didn't appear to disagree with his answers.

Offline Tobes

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #3 on: September 16, 2015, 05:16:25 PM »
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Corbyn was just giving Cameron a platform and didn't appear to disagree with his answers.

I couldn't disagree more. The 'platform' argument presumes on this occasion that those answers were persuasive.

Were they?

Just because Cameron's bottom jaw was flapping, doesn't mean the answers he gave carried any weight to those watching or listening outside the chamber. In fact, posing the question (real questions, from real people who are living with the effects of Cameron's policies) was actually quite revealing. Allowing Mr C to trot off the party line showed the disengagement between his ideology and its real life impact.

PMQs importance ought actually be about much more than the pantomime of the chamber. If every PMQs, 20 or 30 thousand people's questions and concerns are given such an airey brush off, Cameron might quickly have cause for future regret.

Lets see
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #4 on: September 17, 2015, 08:32:57 AM »
I was impressed, he kept his cool, Cameron's face was a picture sometimes and although the questions he asked did indeed give Cameron a platform - I fancy those answers are going to come back at him again and again. 

I was smirking - but Corbyn wasn't - much to his credit.

Cameron was forced to play it straight and he didn't blessed well like it.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Donian

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #5 on: September 17, 2015, 04:31:28 PM »
Cameron was forced to play it straight and he didn't blessed well like it.

I would disagree - Corbyn did not hold Cameron to account. He just accepted his answers and went off to read another question. £125k per year plus a car and driver to read out emails - nice job.

Offline Muggins

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #6 on: September 18, 2015, 09:03:33 AM »
Slowly, slowly, catchee monkey Donian.  He'll be back! 

The look on Cameron's face said it all - he didn't like it.

AS to the fee's don't they all get that!!  And haven't they all been at it longer - come on........

The performance of some is an even bigger waste of money.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Richard Symonds

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #7 on: September 18, 2015, 11:09:29 PM »
Corbyn was just giving Cameron a platform and didn't appear to disagree with his answers.

You would say that!!

but perhaps he is more subtle that his public school adversary who took his frustration out on the Scots Natss!
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Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #8 on: October 10, 2015, 01:40:28 AM »
I have watched the Jeremy Corbyn show with interest.

I was a traditional Labour voter driven away by the Gordon Brown fiasco and unappealing Ed Miliband option. For me Jeremy Corbyn is too left wing, but I was prepared to give him the benefit of doubt and admired the fact that he is a man of principle rather than a career politician.

I don't really care whether Jeremy Corbyn is a republican or a monarchist, but and it is a very big BUT, I have a real problem with his apparent hypocrisy.

On the one hand he seems reluctant to sing the National Anthem or shake the Queen's hand.

On the other, he is happy to shake hands and socialist with Gerry Adams and Martin McGuinness, and considers the likes of Hezbollah and Hamas as friends.

Jeremy argues that he has to treat these people as friends in order to debate and negotiate with them, but despite being leader of the opposition he is reluctant to extend this courtesy to our Queen.

Having giving him a bit of time to settle in, I have reached my verdict. He is a DANGEROUS NUTTER.


Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #9 on: October 10, 2015, 01:59:40 AM »
Just seen PMQs

Gotta say... Corbyn has played a blinder. Its not about his personal performance - but the sheer genius of asking questions from the public.

C'mon, I can't believe anyone has fallen for this con trick.

Let's assume Jezza receives 10,000 emails from Labour supporters, and he cherry picks 5 and raises them at PMQs. These are no longer random public questions, they are hand picked questions that appeal to Jezza. To the easily swayed it's clever, to the cynical it's lazy.

Based on my observations and previous post, I don't think Jezza is swayed by public opinion or anyone else. He has his own mind, his long established opinions and his own agenda.

This isn't a man who is going to represent the public. He has strong opinions and isn't going to be influenced by anything as trivial as public opinion. He is only going to ask for opinion or advice from people that he knows to agree with him.


Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #10 on: October 11, 2015, 12:45:06 PM »
in the papers today, corbyn has very strong IRA links and his current attitude with the queen leaves a lot to be desired, and his deputy, the cretin Watson, who has put the finger on innocent people for abuse claims, himself has an uncle who has been convicted of child abuse, who is going to vote for them now....

Offline Alex

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #11 on: October 17, 2015, 06:22:41 PM »
Corbyn seems to me to be getting better and better in PMQs, a rational reasonable debate rather than hurling abuse and guffaws seem to be unappealing to the Tories and Cameron is flummoxed.

Many of the Labour MPs don't seem to be able to contain themselves either, but the people who have voted for him in their thousands seem to be very appreciative.

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #12 on: October 17, 2015, 08:14:23 PM »
Corbyn seems to me to be getting better and better in PMQs, a rational reasonable debate rather than hurling abuse and guffaws seem to be unappealing to the Tories and Cameron is flummoxed.

I haven't seen any of the recent PMQs to comment, but I do find it odd that at a time when the government are introducing more and more cuts, the media are more interested in Jeremy Corbyn's potential flaws that anything the government are doing. The unions might like him, but it appears that the media don't. I am sure that many more people read the papers than watch PMQs.

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Many of the Labour MPs don't seem to be able to contain themselves either, but the people who have voted for him in their thousands seem to be very appreciative.

To those many thousands of far left wing voters, he is the Messiah. I am not sure that is particularly relevant though as appealing to those many thousands has resulted in him being unappealing to many millions. Labour need to win supporters, not lose them. Jeremy Corbyn seems to appeal to the converted.

Corbyn was introduced as a man of principle, but I am seeing a lot of hypocrisy.

Take Trident for example. Jeremy Corbyn is clearly a supporter of CND and against Trident, but it isn't Labour policy. Why? Because there are a lot of jobs tied up in Trident and he won't upset his union buddies.

In the unlikely event that Jeremy Corbyn there is a possibility that we will keep Trident to keep the unions happy, but Corbyn has made it clear that he would never push the button. So we spend the money on a nuclear deterrent that isn't a deterrent because we have told the world that we won't use it.

For me this is a problem for the man of principles. It is easy to have principles whilst in opposition and wave lots of placards. But, in practice some of these principles will conflict.

Whatever anyone's opinion on Trident, I think most people would agree that the decision and debate should be about defence rather than pandering to the unions. I think there are already signs that the 'Man of Principles' might actually be the 'Union Puppet'.

In my opinion, the Tories seem to be growing in confidence. They won a modest majority over a reasonably unified Labour Party. The Tories now seem to have a modest majority over a split Labour Party. The Tory position seems to have strengthened.


Offline Tobes

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Re: The New Messiah - aka Corbyn - quickly showing feet of clay?
« Reply #13 on: October 18, 2015, 11:35:25 AM »
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Let's assume Jezza receives 10,000 emails from Labour supporters, and he cherry picks 5 and raises them at PMQs. These are no longer random public questions, they are hand picked questions that appeal to Jezza. To the easily swayed it's clever, to the cynical it's lazy.

You're the first person to ever say I'm 'easily swayed'... certainly on TS!

I still hold by the rationale of asking 'real life' questions from constituents rather than the endless procession of rhetorical / ministerial jibes. That said...

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I do find it odd that at a time when the government are introducing more and more cuts, the media are more interested in Jeremy Corbyn's potential flaws that anything the government are doing. The unions might like him, but it appears that the media don't. I am sure that many more people read the papers than watch PMQs.

Indeed - but as we all know, much of the media has an in built prejudicial element, stemming from the editorial guidelines 'suggested' by their owners. Not being liked by the media is not necessarily an indication of anything except an overt attempt to slew public opinion by those pulling the strings. That said, picking on Corbyn's obvious and manifest flaws is a somewhat easy challenge, isn't it?

I also expect some media commentators would also point out that examining Corbyns flaws is essential to show that he's A) not fit to hold power and B) - if A is quickly accepted, he's not likely to perform a useful function in reigning in the worst excesses of the conservatives (which, lest we forget is the ultimate danger to all of us, pretty much regardless of our politicial allegances). unmitigated, unchallenged power is the biggest danger of all - and as we know from our experiences in microcosm in Swindon, tory politicians in particular seem to think that ruling by consent through democratic consultation is a 'needless burden', just as long as they can arrogantly point at their supposed electoral mandate to do as they please...

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To those many thousands of far left wing voters, he is the Messiah. I am not sure that is particularly relevant though as appealing to those many thousands has resulted in him being unappealing to many millions. Labour need to win supporters, not lose them. Jeremy Corbyn seems to appeal to the converted.

I think that comment about 'appealing to the converted' is true for the most leftie, but its certainly not true to the myriad of 'champaign socialists' who loved Blair and Brown so much. It seems to me that (for the short term at least) his appeal to certain people goes a little wider than than the reddest of the red too. Doing my penance on the doorsteps this spring, I was amazed at the number of people fully prepared to flip-flop between all sorts of apparently diametrically opposed ideologies - Labour voters fully committed to voting UKiP or BNP, conservative voters deciding to vote Green - etc. Whilst its true the ideologues who'd vote for an ape if it wore the right rosette were also still their in abundance, I was still bemused by the scramble for voters to grab hold of something new and different. Principals and conviction (however misguided!) seemed to be something they were searching for.

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Corbyn was introduced as a man of principle, but I am seeing a lot of hypocrisy.

This is the aspect which will ultimately doom him. Real Politique will inevitably destroy the very aspects which made him appeal to labour members in the first place. 
« Last Edit: October 18, 2015, 12:17:29 PM by Tobes »
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'