Author Topic: How will the EU Referendum play out?  (Read 7659 times)

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Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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How will the EU Referendum play out?
« on: May 22, 2015, 05:28:35 PM »
David Cameron is starting initial talks with other EU leaders next week about what changes he wants to EU. How is this all going to play out? Discuss please.


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Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2015, 05:30:37 PM »
Would also be interested in a straw poll of peoples voting intentions at the moment? IN or OUT? :froggy:
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Offline Muggins

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2015, 06:10:46 PM »
In, for the same reasons I voted that way in 1970? Whatever it was?
Still got the original leaflet from then.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2015, 06:27:22 PM »
I'm pretty neutral. Obviously a globalised world requires trading blocks - but the evidence of my travels and conversations with EU citizens seems to indicate a fundamental difference of cultural interpretation as to the entire purpose of the experiment. Unfortunately, we have a nasty habit of enforcing restrictions, rules and laws in this country - and many other members seem to have a far more 'flexible' and dare I say, latin laise-faire attitude. We joined because of the trade advantages - but many others see it as a real federal precursor to what effectively amounts to a super-state.

The examples of pretty brazen corruption within the functioning of the EU are legion - not to mention the self-interest of the innumerable b-EU-rocrats who are riding a very lucrative gravy train.

Perhaps it might benefit from one of its major members raising the very real possibility of leaving to wake them from their long complacency.

Britain's history, culture, law and social attitudes are very different to the rest of Europe. The Eurocrats attempts to make one size fit all clearly haven't enamoured them to a sizeable chunk of the UK population.

Lets see what comes out in the debates - and lets hope they are clear, open and truly honest.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2015, 06:54:38 PM »
Here, here Tobes, I've had enough nudge nudge, wink wink, from the old boys club this week to keep me going for another ten years.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2015, 06:57:05 PM »
Would also be interested in a straw poll of peoples voting intentions at the moment? IN or OUT?

I would vote to stay in.

Hopefully the government can negotiate a few reforms to push the EU bureaucrats back a bit, but overall I would stay in.

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2015, 07:12:23 PM »
Unfortunately, we have a nasty habit of enforcing restrictions, rules and laws in this country - and many other members seem to have a far more 'flexible' and dare I say, latin laise-faire attitude.

It certainly feels like that, although I know that the UK is struggling to keep up with legislation in the construction industry and has been threatened with fines if we don't comply.

For example, the UK has been slow to respond to some H&S legislation and has been rapped on the knuckles. As a result, the CDM2015 regulations have been rushed through and no one knows what they mean. I have heard that the EU actually prefer our old system and are likely to adopt it in the near future, but they are going to make us change first so that we don't have a commercial advantage and aren't rewarded for non-compliance.

There are other cases where we have very good construction standards and are being forced to change to less robust ones in the interests of 'fair trade'. I suspect that other countries with high standards, eg. Germany are experiencing similar frustrations.

I also get the impression that the UK follows the rules more rigorously than some other countries, but I sometimes wonder if this is just media propaganda.

Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2015, 08:39:33 PM »
Spunky - the construction industry is a classic example! A British site run by any large national contractor is ridiculously over-regulated. Go to a typical site in somewhere like france, Spain or Italy and you'll see the same rules flouted with an almost casual disregard.

The difference is the Anglo Saxon love of rules and bureaucracy - because the law over here is basically still respected culturally, it's enforced. Talk to a French or Belgian about the same rules and you'll get a shrug and a 'but they're guidelines' - as though their cultural view is that the law is some kind of flexible ideal to aim for.

It that kind of fundamental cultural difference which illustrates why a 'one rule to bind them all' kind of approach is simply incompatible with the different ways people across Europe perceive governance.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2015, 08:46:55 PM »
Spunky - these stats seem to clearly indicate that the UK leads Europe as regards almost all the hse criteria; http://www.hse.gov.uk/Statistics/tables/index.htm#europeancomparisons

I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2015, 09:54:11 PM »
I will vote no for the following reasons:

1. Democracy. I don't like the fact that laws in EU can only be made by non-elected representatives (commissioners). We can only elect MEPs to vote yes or no to legislation made by commissioners. Fundamentally undemocratic. I don't believe my ancestors fought for this!
2. The majority of other EU member states are interventionist in nature and tend to over-regulate. The UK simply does not have enough bums on seats in the European Parliament to counter effectively this interventionist agenda.
3. The UK cannot make its own trade arrangements with the growing economies of the world and is tied to the non-growth EU market. Hence our hands are tied.
4. We need to control immigration so that we can restore more sensible levels in tune with our infrastructure. For example a recent survey by Knight Frank says only 13% of housebuilders say we can build the 230,000 houses per year current net migration levels would require. They say only 160,000 per year is currently possible. While this continues house prices will continue to rise and be out of reach of the working class leading to increased inequality compounded by wages kept low.
5. Finally, and not least my pet hate of having to stand in an EU passport holders lane at Heathrow and Gatwick behind hundreds of EU citizens trying to get into my own country! I want the old British passport lanes reopened!
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Offline moley

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2015, 09:58:16 PM »
I will vote no for the following reasons:

1. Democracy. I don't like the fact that laws in EU can only be made by non-elected representatives (commissioners). We can only elect MEPs to vote yes or no to legislation made by commissioners. Fundamentally undemocratic. I don't believe my ancestors fought for this!

Although arguably a lot of the law in this country is established by case law coming from judges' (unelected?) interpretation of the law. 

I'll be voting "In".

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Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2015, 10:08:08 PM »
Churchill famously said once if given a choice between Europe and the sea Britain will always choose the sea. It will be interesting to see if Britain has changed so much and vote for Europe.
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2015, 10:43:59 PM »
4 questions,
 1, do we wish to keep the pound, when every other country in the eu would prefer us to have the euro.
2, do we wish our gov to have absolute control over who we are able to admit and who we are able to expel from the uk.
3, do we wish to move towards european fiscal control and unification.
4, do we wish to remain a member of an organisation who since is inauguration has been unable, as a result of theft and corruption, to have any form of independent auditors sign off its acounts>??? :wakeup:

Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2015, 11:34:11 PM »
Moley - but as you say, thats case law, NOT legislation.

Legislation is proposed and passed or rejected by the commons before passing through to the Lord's for their say. At least the commons are elected and the Lord's only ratify or reject, rather than draft or propose.

Case law is about the interpretation of the law, not the making of it (ie. What's legal or not, as per EU legislation)
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2015, 12:07:41 AM »
Hey Terry, have a celebratory pint... ;) I agree with the points you've made - if the EU can't be reformed to the point that they are properly addressed - and the leaders of the rest of the union show no intent to change, then I think a no vote is both inevitable and perfectly understandable.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #15 on: May 23, 2015, 12:55:53 AM »
Spunky - these stats seem to clearly indicate that the UK leads Europe as regards almost all the hse criteria; http://www.hse.gov.uk/Statistics/tables/index.htm#europeancomparisons


Tobes, you are missing the point. The HSE criteria are not relevant. The statistics are comparing safety records  not compliance with EU procedures.

The HSE are in trouble for not enforcing EU rules. The UK might have a better accident record compared with other EU countries, but that doesn't mean that it complies with EU procedures.

This is my point. There are cases where UK standards are better than EU standards, but we are threatened with prosecution or fines for not complying with the inferior EU standard.

For example, in the UK, the Highways Agency only permit the use of spray applied bridge waterproofing systems which have undergone rigorous testing. Only two companies have gone to the expense of completing the process, so only two products are approved. The EU don't like this as they want the UK to accept inferior Greek or Spanish products (sheet systems - i.e. glorified roofing felt). The UK is being penalised for using superior products.

Greece doesn't get a lot of snow and ice and probably aren't interested in providing waterproofing membranes which protect against de-icing salts. The problem is, the EU want the UK to give Greek manufacturers a fair chance of winning UK contracts.

The EU rules may be inferior, but they override UK rules.

With regards to H&S, the UK has a good record but is being forced to drop a tried and tested system in favour of an EU compliant system.

Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #16 on: May 23, 2015, 10:10:00 AM »
Quote
Tobes, you are missing the point. The HSE criteria are not relevant. The statistics are comparing safety records  not compliance with EU procedures.

The HSE are in trouble for not enforcing EU rules. The UK might have a better accident record compared with other EU countries, but that doesn't mean that it complies with EU procedures.

This is my point. There are cases where UK standards are better than EU standards, but we are threatened with prosecution or fines for not complying with the inferior EU standard.

.. Then its yet another example of British companies being fined/required to apply extra unnecessary costs for an inferior set of standards which we both fund nationally and will be fined nationally for not conforming to!

Sounds like another reason to vote to leave then!  :o
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #17 on: May 23, 2015, 10:43:12 AM »
Sounds like another reason to vote to leave then!  :o

I agree that this is one of the worst aspects of the EU and is one reason to leave.

On the other hand, the UK economy is doing well and I would be cautious of change. Staying in is a safe bet, leaving is a gamble. We might be better off, but we might be worse off. The fact that the UK is doing well means we don't need to take the risk in my opinion.

I don't have a strong opinion either way, but on balance I would vote to stay in.  :froggy:

Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #18 on: May 24, 2015, 09:57:00 AM »

When I hear arguments that go the economy is doing well right now so why do anything to take a risk I am perplexed. Economies go up and down - ask Gordon Brown? Basically if you take that view it is like saying I like democracy but not at all costs. If it affects my personal standard of living then Count me out. I am going to be slightly provocative here and say if the country would have that attitude in 1939 where would be today?

For me the ability to remove the people who govern me and who set the laws by which I must live at the ballot box is non-negotiable and sacrosanct. It is a right people have died for to preserve.
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Offline Tobes

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Re: How will the EU Referendum play out?
« Reply #19 on: May 24, 2015, 11:38:14 AM »
Quote
When I hear arguments that go the economy is doing well right now so why do anything to take a risk I am perplexed. Economies go up and down - ask Gordon Brown?


Yeah - I think thats a fair comment.

I am reminded that the same voices in business were clamouring to get us to join the Euro, perceived that it was a risk to remain outside it.

But thank god we did, eh?

I've also not been overwhelmed by the number of UK manufacturers stating that we 'MUST' remain within the EU (despite being asked to) - and interested to see that companies like Silver Cross and JCB saying we'd be perfectly fine re-negotiating independently from the EU.

For me, a yes vote is dependent upon major concession and real commitment huge reform - starting with the EU parliaments own accounts being signed off for the first time...

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/11209248/EU-auditors-refuse-to-sign-off-more-than-100billion-of-its-own-spending.html
Quote
According to the annual report of the European Court of Auditors, seen by The Telegraph, £5.5 billion of the EU budget last year was misspent because of controls on spending that were deemed to be only “partially effective” by experts.
The audit, published this morning, found that £109 billion out of a total of £117 billion spent by the EU in 2013 was "affected by material error”. It means that the Brussels accounts have not been given the all clear for 19 years running.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'