Poll

With less than one week to the election, who do you THINK will form the next government? (Note. Who do you THINK will win, not who you WANT to win)

Conservative Majority
0 (0%)
Conservative Minority
4 (30.8%)
Conservative - Lib Dem Coalition
2 (15.4%)
Conservative - UKIP Coalition
0 (0%)
Labour Majority
0 (0%)
Labour Minority
4 (30.8%)
Labour - Lib Dem Coalition
1 (7.7%)
Labour - SNP Coalition
2 (15.4%)
Other
0 (0%)

Total Members Voted: 13

Voting closed: May 07, 2015, 03:25:33 PM

Author Topic: General Election Outcome  (Read 4781 times)

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Offline Muggins

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Re: General Election Outcome
« Reply #20 on: May 10, 2015, 08:56:58 AM »
I don't think its an either/or situation.  Its not that easy. 

Having any other party in control doesn't mean you would automatically lose your job.  People will still be consuming. 

Remembering Dads old adage, that robot can make cars but they cant buy them still is true.

It is the ATTITUDE that is so bad. The Mantras about the unemployed, as if they have had no success getting them back to work in the last five years building, I might add, on the success of Labour to do that  in the 5 years previous to that. 

We are constantly asking for the latest figures, because it's obvious by the empty street, empty pubs, empty community centres etc. that people are not seeking other things to fill their time. 
So where are they?  At blessed work is where they are,  and too knackered when they get home to come out and play.

Even in the worst stage of unemployment back in the 80's Penhill figure stood at 19% which meant 81% were working.   Between 6/10 years ago that figure was down to 9% unemployed which meant 91% were working. 

I think we may be reaching the point of the actual unemployable. Those we really do have to look after, not just the feckless. Translated into actual people, maybe it's time to look at them case by case with a view to coming to a proper conclusion for each individual rather than frightening and worrying the masses.

And stop wasting money on useless, silly projects that get nowhere but only employ a few for a short while.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Geoff Reid

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Re: General Election Outcome
« Reply #21 on: May 10, 2015, 10:51:46 AM »
How anybody can think the Greens are credible with their policy manifesto is beyond me - and goes to show it takes all sorts to make a world. I for one want to leave the EU in its current format because it is an undemocratic organisation and when you think of the long struggle to extend the democratic franchise in these islands I am always stunned how blasé and relaxed many British people seem to be about our current membership of the EU where only unelected politicians (commissioners) are allowed to make laws. In any case even someone without an economics degree knows that if you put a tariff on imports from another country that country is likely to reciprocate and that a free trade deal is always the preferred option.

What the manifest actually said was:

Quote
"Europe
The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia.

Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.

However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy of subsidiarity.

We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living.

So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an
additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year."

The actual policy document is fuller in detail and a good read.  I liked it.

People disagree on politics and policy. That is the nature of politics and personal opinion.  What I find quite interesting about the 2015 general election is the manner in which most commentators agreed that the Green party had no real chance of gaining more than a handful of seats under the FPTP electoral system yet spent a disproportionately greater amount of time attacking Green policies, (usually without reading them first), than they did promoting the policies of the parties they represented, (or wanted to see elected), or dismantling the policies of their genuinely major political rivals.  The old saying that the British 'love an underdog' is clearly wrong when it comes to politics  :wink:

Why is that.....could it be that the trend towards demonising 'difference' has become very deeply ingrained into the British Political mindset?, if so we're psychologically much further down the road to fascism than I'd previously feared.

Anyhow, this time around I've spent more time watching and commenting on campaign behaviours and tactics than I have arguing policy with people who can't be reasoned with and who won't politely agree to disagree.  I think of them as 'Greenhalghs' - for whom nothing short of an argumentative annihilation will suffice :)

As far as policy is concerned I think the politics of competition, suspicion, division and envy are fabulously destructive. Instead I have drifted contentedly towards a socially and psychologically fulfilling view which is a better, more sustainable fit for me as I enter my second half-century.



Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: General Election Outcome
« Reply #22 on: May 10, 2015, 01:08:47 PM »
I don't think its an either/or situation.  Its not that easy. 

Having any other party in control doesn't mean you would automatically lose your job.  People will still be consuming.

I agree, it is about confidence and security. Personally, I feel that my job is more secure under the Tories. I worked at SBC from 1987 to 2008. During the last 12 years (approximately) we were threatened with redundancy every year. I was earning a reasonable wage but I was scared to spend it because we were constantly being told that our jobs were at risk. When they final offered voluntary redundancy I took it because I realised that it had become a horrible environment to work in.

Working in construction, my employment prospects are strongly linked to economic prosperity and government spending. I am in my late 40's and have reached a level where I now earn a good salary, but many younger staff or site workers aren't so lucky. There is a lot of talk about zero hours contracts in recent years, but the majority of construction workers are self employed and only know if they have work one week at a time. They have to work hard and for long hours in all weathers otherwise they don't get invited back next week. Personally, I think those people feel more secure under a Tory government. They might be wrong, but it is about confidence and perception.

Quote
Remembering Dads old adage, that robot can make cars but they cant buy them still is true.

Very true. It is equally true of imports/exports. Unions often (or used to) complain that cheap foreign imports undermine the British industry. We couldn't buy these imports if we weren't selling them something in return. It is only a problem if you are the person replaced by the robot or your if it is your industry that is uncompetitive.

Quote
Even in the worst stage of unemployment back in the 80's Penhill figure stood at 19% which meant 81% were working.   Between 6/10 years ago that figure was down to 9% unemployed which meant 91% were working.

I think this partly why Labour lost out at the election. By appealing to the non working, they were appealing to the 9% and turning off the 91%.

In 2010, I was concerned about the prospect of a Tory government. I had voted for Tony Blair and remember feeling that Gordon Brown had been made a bit of a scapegoat having gained power in a recession. I remember thinking that winning in 2010 was a poison chalice and might result in the winners becoming so unpopular that they wouldn't get back in to government for decades.

Looking back I now think the Tories have performed far better nationally and locally than Labour would have done.

Quote
And stop wasting money on useless, silly projects that get nowhere but only employ a few for a short while.

 :clap: :clap: :clap: I think we all agree on that.

They was a lot of talk during the election campaigns about how much each party would spend. Very little talk about whether they would spend it wisely.

This election was all about fear. Fear of immigrants, fear of austerity, fear of Scottish influence. A very negative campaign by all. Hopefully the economy will pick up and in 2020 we will be able to vote for the candidate we want to win rather than vote against the candidate we fear.

Offline Muggins

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Re: General Election Outcome
« Reply #23 on: May 10, 2015, 07:17:27 PM »
"During the last 12 years (approximately) we were threatened with redundancy every year."

You're telling me, but I won't go into that again, suffice to say 6,000 employed in 2005, 3000 in 2012, and that's getting towards the 1,500 ambition.  It was as bad for us out here trying to get things done, when they were largely expecting the Voluntary sector to take up the slack.  You might be able to do that with resources and support, but FOR NOTHING, WITH NOTHING almost impossible, no one wants to be told what to do for no pay - there has to be a 'passion' 'doggedness' involved somewhere top stay the course.

I think we can agree Spunky that in the 70's the Unions overdid it, but their power went ages ago. One of my experiences on Polling Day was trying to convince a tipsy person that what he was yattering about was 40 years out of date. Another Mantra that needs batting out the water.

I don't know about the performance much, but where I am sitting, it is the attitude:  dictatorial, secretive and sometimes spiteful action of the Tories  attitude that would lead me to not vote for them. 

Personally, like I said, I can't do much now about my situation or finances. We both paid our share when we were at work, Mr Muggins worked and hard, all his life was honest and paid his dues, in the hope that he - and I - would be looked after in later life, so far so good, but for how long will that carry on, and if we have to watch our family, neighbours and our community not doing so well, what joy is there in us being OK. Having said that we aren't greedy and keeping us would be reasonably cheap, but we will shortly be costing more. 

Our family has grown into fine citizens all employed, paying their way after receiving a pretty good education.  I'm hoping for the same for my two grandchildren, who seem set to be worth educating and for my little great nieces and nephews. In fact on the whole we must be  contributing more than we are costing 

How much will you enjoy your middle age prosperity - and I don't begrudge you that at all - if those dear to you were in want. 

So it's not only about finances, but the 'attitude' and you are right, we might be safe, but we certainly don't feel it, and neither do those in the family that are working and contributing. They don't have a choice but to carry on.   
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: General Election Outcome
« Reply #24 on: May 10, 2015, 08:56:18 PM »
How much will you enjoy your middle age prosperity - and I don't begrudge you that at all - if those dear to you were in want. 

I am doing okay but still have a mortgage so that is why I am concerned about job security.

I know that my middle aged prosperity is short term. I also know that I will be paying for my old age care regardless of who is in government. Both Labour and Tories are encouraging those of us in work to provide for ourselves. Is it any surprise that we as a nation are becoming a bit more selfish?

I don't have children, but do have a niece and nephew who will be faced with tuition fees, difficult job market and expensive housing. I don't think that either Labour or the Tories will do much to help them. Perhaps, if I am slightly better off under the Tories, I can help subsidise my niece and nephew in their early adult life.

There is the old saying that charity begins at home. Perhaps we are entering an age where welfare begins at home.

At the end of the day Muggins, I think we both want similar things. We just disagree about which party is best able to provide those things.

I also think that we all have a distorted view of the world based on personal circumstances. Most of the people around me are doing quite well, so I haven't really seen anyone suffering. I work in a profession with high employment, so most of colleagues are in a similar position to me. Most of my friends were met at university or at work, so they also in a similar position. My neighbours live in similar houses and are therefore in a similar position. Of all my friends, only two have ever been unemployed (both for about a year) and their redundancy payments just about covered them. 

I haven't really witnessed the plight of vulnerable people and I appreciate that my opinions are distorted by that fact. However, I have witnessed my girlfriend's hard working parents have to sell their house to pay for extortionate nursing care. Despite our taxes, the government has done little to help them.

My parents are likely to suffer the same future as will I in later life. Instead of worrying about vulnerable strangers in the present, I am worrying about vulnerable family members in the future whether those are elderly relatives needing care or young adults getting a decent start on the rat race.

Perhaps I am selfish, but I am not alone.

Offline The Oakhurst Avenger

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Re: General Election Outcome
« Reply #25 on: May 11, 2015, 12:51:31 AM »
What the manifest actually said was:

Quote
"Europe
The Green Party recognises that the UK is part of Europe and that we cannot cut ourselves off from our geography or its political realities. Our message on Europe is positive, not based on fear and nostalgia.

Much EU action has been progressive: safeguarding basic rights, peace and security achieved through mutual understanding, environmental protection, the spread of culture and ideas, and regulation of the financial system. And in other areas, such as welfare policy, open discussion and coordination are useful.

However, we prioritise local self-reliance rather than the EU’s unsustainable economics of free trade and growth. We would not adopt the Euro, which cannot work properly without much deeper political integration, and this would be contrary to our policy of subsidiarity.

We support the proposal to have an in–out referendum so that the British people can have their say. This is because much has changed since the UK joined the Common Market in 1974. Endless debate on membership is a diversion from more important matters, such as ending inequality and adapting our economy to One-Planet Living.

So it’s yes to Europe, yes to reform of the EU but also yes to a referendum. This is the policy that led to the election of an
additional Green MEP, Molly Scott Cato, in the South West last year."

The actual policy document is fuller in detail and a good read.

Switzerland is geographically even more bound to Europe than the UK and yet it does not feel the need to be a member of the EU, yet enjoys a free trade deal with the EU.

Has the EU increased peace and security internally or externally? Look at the situation in Greece. Look at the the interference in Ukraine and the resulting fall out from that with Russian MIGs now buzzing up and down our coastlines as well as Scandinavia, Poland and the Baltic Republics.
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