Author Topic: Prison Sentences  (Read 5198 times)

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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Prison Sentences
« on: February 16, 2015, 10:10:19 AM »
Tobes, If you can get someone to hold the daily mail for you, while you read,( I know you wouldn't want to soil your hands), there is an excellent article in today's paper about prison sentences, from Dominic Lawson.. makes interesting reading..



Offline Tobes

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #1 on: February 16, 2015, 10:55:37 AM »
 :wink:

This one? - http://www.dailymail.co.uk/debate/article-2955052/DOMINIC-LAWSON-Letting-sneering-young-thugs-just-caution-makes-law-look-ass.html

I've read the article.

Yup. Utter common sense observations from the writer. No issue at all with what he says.

(I just wish the Daily Mail would be more considered in many of its articles; its a shame that when it does produce good journalism, people just dismiss the story or the editorial because of where it comes from. Unfortunately, its editorial is to blame for that for promoting so many over the top or plainly prejudiced articles...  :-\ )
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Muggins

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #2 on: February 17, 2015, 09:08:03 AM »
Noting the article starts off with the inevitable sexual references and tries to compare child molestation/grooming etc. etc of yesteryear with young on young violence of today.

The one has little to do with the other - probably to show that child molesters have to answer for what they have done, they are imprisoned, (and who says they gave up years ago)  they are maybe put away for their own safety??  Probably lascivious old gits by now. 

The young thugs have to answer for their sins, too, do you think they get off because some cruel whacky hand shaking goes on??

The lets start talking about those who kill whilst driving?  Why does that appear to be a lesser crime?

AS to the drunken brawl - 18/19 times aye, that woman has a drink problem.  Will prison help her and her victims?

   

 

Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Phil Chitty

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #3 on: February 17, 2015, 01:23:24 PM »

AS to the drunken brawl - 18/19 times aye, that woman has a drink problem.  Will prison help her and her victims?

 

No it won't help, but that is not the point. With a record like that she needs to be jailed, clearly nothing seems to work in that case. Let her jail sentence be a deterrent to others.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #4 on: February 17, 2015, 02:50:53 PM »
Quote
The young thugs have to answer for their sins, too, do you think they get off because some cruel whacky hand shaking goes on??

No, they get off because there isn;t the funding to punish them - prison sentances cost money.

Consider this, both Labour and the conservatives are proposing mandatory work schemes for youth unemployed, to give them 'a sense of responsibility' (apparently)...

Now, can anyone explain to me the difference between community service for a serious assault.... and community service for simply having been unemployed as an 18 year old for more than six months?

Where's the actual punishment?

And if there's no punishment, where's the deterrence?

As the article rightfully points out, the future danger for society really doesn't lie in assuring the prosecution of 80 year old ex-celebs who touched up young boys and girls 30+ years ago (however distasteful and an abuse of position that might have been). Prosecute them by all means, even lock them away - but for gods sake, make sure its a proportionate punishment to the kind being awarded to the types of people who are seriously injuring people in unprovoked attacks and apparently getting away with nothing more than suspended sentences, tags or community service.

Surely no one with any sense of justice thinks that can be right?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #5 on: February 17, 2015, 06:22:02 PM »

AS to the drunken brawl - 18/19 times aye, that woman has a drink problem.  Will prison help her and her victims?

No it won't help, but that is not the point. With a record like that she needs to be jailed, clearly nothing seems to work in that case. Let her jail sentence be a deterrent to others.

Agreed.

It might not help the attacker or her previous victims (although it might give them a sense of justice), but it might help her future victims. With a track record like that it is inevitable that she will do it again. Locking her up might save her next victim.

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #6 on: February 17, 2015, 06:51:25 PM »
Consider this, both Labour and the conservatives are proposing mandatory work schemes for youth unemployed, to give them 'a sense of responsibility' (apparently)...

Now, can anyone explain to me the difference between community service for a serious assault.... and community service for simply having been unemployed as an 18 year old for more than six months?

I am not against the principle of requiring the unemployed to do community work in exchange for benefits, but I agree that it contradicts community service as a punishment. I also think the Tories are wrong in expecting 30 hours work in return for the £57.35 benefit. How can the government prosecute a private company for failing to pay minimum wage and then do the same?

Minimum wage for someone aged 18-20 is £5.13/hour, so get them to do 11 hours community service in return for it. If the unemployed youth are all working 30 hours cleaning streets etc, a lot of existing council staff will made redundant (is this an over sight or part of the plan?). Will public sector jobs be replaced with unemployed staff working for a pittance?

If criminal is ordered to do 120 hours community service as a punishment it should be unpaid and in addition to any work in exchange for benefits. Under the current system, community service is a greater punishment for those in work than for those who are unemployed. Giving up 120 hours of free time when you are working is a punishment. Giving up 120 hours when you are unemployed is less so.   

Looking at this another way. If the government values 30 hours community service at £57.35, then giving a violent thug 120 hours community service is equivalent to a fine of £229.40. Potential ruining someone's life is worth £229.40 !!!

Offline moley

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #7 on: February 17, 2015, 07:12:24 PM »
and if they have to work 30 hours, when are they going to find time to actually look for a job (which can be a close to full time activity in itself).

I could buy into one day a week, or a couple of half days but 30 hours is IMO ridiculous.  And is anyone going to keep an eye to make sure they aren't causing mischief?

Moley

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #8 on: February 17, 2015, 08:12:50 PM »
and if they have to work 30 hours, when are they going to find time to actually look for a job (which can be a close to full time activity in itself).

Also if they are working a 30 hour week on a wage equivalent to basic JSA, the government will need to pay their travel expenses too.

I could buy into one day a week, or a couple of half days but 30 hours is IMO ridiculous.  And is anyone going to keep an eye to make sure they aren't causing mischief?

I reckon 2 days per week is fair. 10 hours community work at minimum wage (ie equivalent to JSA) and a further 5-6 hours unpaid in the office with access to a computer, stationary, stamps and someone to help write letters, CVs.

Offline Tobes

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #9 on: February 18, 2015, 09:50:23 AM »
2 adults beat up two men for daring to ask them to be patient in a takeaway, then steal a wallet and credit cards.

Their pathetic, insulting and utterly pointless sentence?

http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11798171.Drunken_teenagers_who_attacked_men_after_takeaway_dispute_are_spared_jail/
Quote
He imposed two-year jail terms suspended for two years with 180 hours of unpaid work, £500 compensation and £100 surcharge and said Bowen must also do a thinking skills programme.


Small fine aside, this is essentially LESS inconvenience to them than the apparent 'crime' of being young and unemployed...

The justice system in this country is an utter joke, is it not?
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #10 on: February 18, 2015, 09:56:09 AM »
With some youth of today already emulating "gangsters" as a fashion it's complete madness forcing them to share an activity with known criminals
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Offline Muggins

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #11 on: February 18, 2015, 10:14:00 AM »
Tobes quote "Now, can anyone explain to me the difference between community service for a serious assault.... and community service for simply having been unemployed as an 18 year old for more than six months?"

Couldn't agree more with the point you are making there Tobes.  The unemployed should be nowhere near offenders, we all know good should conquer bad, but we also know it doesn't usually.  Unemployed are not 'bad' they are simply unemployed, not unless they have started categorising them!

I learned yesterday that there are going/are already to be changes in the law, we were talking repeat offenders here, and the quote was "And they are not going to like it!" 

I can tell you who they hope will supervise it - the voluntary sector.  At least I think there is an expectation that the Vol Sector will be involved.  They didn't say if they would fund the sector to do it. Probably not I think, they have figured out that nice people give money to the grant givers, I suspect that is given without realising it will be spent on what we would normally accept as statutory activity. As I write I'm working out what they might be thinking and how that might be accepted by the Vol Sector, desperate as much of it has been to just survive lately. 

I did ask if there were 'targets' for repeat offending. i.e. did they have to come up with a certain figure of success stories.  Yes they do. 

'Targets' are the bane of the century as far as I'm concerned, it's not always possible to reach a target when dealing with volunteers and real people with real problems.


 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #12 on: February 18, 2015, 10:22:21 PM »
Interesting story on the BBC about a shortage of prison officers.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-31525794

There are now 10,000 less prison staff compared with 2010 and 5,000 less than in 2013. The voluntary redundancy bill for 2013 came to £56.5 million, but the government appear to have been over zealous in culling staff as there is now a shortage and plans to recruit 1,700 new officers by April.

In January 2013 there were 6,800 empty beds in UK prisons, so plenty of space for violent criminals if the judges were so inclined.

I wonder if Lucy Beale's killer will get a prison sentence or community service.


Offline Tobes

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #13 on: February 20, 2015, 01:47:07 PM »
http://www.swindonadvertiser.co.uk/news/11806295.They_got_away_Scott_free___victim_feels_let_down_by_lenient_sentence/

Stupidly, unfairly lenient sentences like this make it an utter inevitability that victims, families and friends will not only feel let down, but will increasingly seek to ignore the law entirely and will take the application of justice into their own hands.

And the sickening irony of that, will be the police investigating and judges handing out the harshest of sentences to those people instead.

The law isn't just an ass, it often appears to be completely broken to me  :(
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Phil Chitty

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #14 on: February 20, 2015, 02:06:29 PM »
And the sickening irony of that, will be the police investigating and judges handing out the harshest of sentences to those people instead.

The law isn't just an ass, it often appears to be completely broken to me  :(

Sadly Tobes I think you've hit the nail on the head. The Police can only police with our consent, lenient Judges will erode that consent and the resulting breakdown will be catastrophic.

To my mind there is only one way to reduce this sort of crime. A large probability of being caught and the maximum unpleasantness when actually caught. There is unfortunately a section of society that will always commit crime, nothing cn be done to stop them short of throwing the key away. By far a bigger majority can actually be deterred.

Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #15 on: October 24, 2015, 08:36:42 PM »
To carry on this saga, in the last two weeks I have approached both of our MPs with a view to getting a sentence which was passed, uprated or more stiffer.  Justin passed me onto Robert, so I sent him an email as he is the attorney General, and it is to him you have to make the request, and I am told that if just one person makes such a request, it has to be taken up, so I made my request, this was about the man from Park South who was caught over a 4 year  period down loading indecent pictures of children and also going on chat lines and telling others what he had done to children or what he wanted to do to them.  He first went to the magistrates court and gave false information about where he lived etc,
he was sentenced for that, and was then passed onto the crown court for further punishment over the pictures etc. The first reply I got was that as it was dealt with by the magistrates court, there was nothing more the AG office could do, So I went back and pointed out that he also was tried in the crown court, I also pointed out that his defending lawyer, at the CC trial stood up and said that any previous was not relevant and he should be sentenced for only the matter in hand that day.  The judge said he needed treatment and so gave him a 10 month suspended sentence and had him put on the register for offenders, (like, we are told, his parents also),  The AG office them came back and said it was not a serious case and there was nothing they could about the sentence given or what the lawyer had said in his defence. Surely proof the inmates are now running the Asylum....  :2funny:
Ques: Is everybody else on holiday??

Offline I Could Do That

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #16 on: October 25, 2015, 12:50:29 AM »
It is quiet isn't it
 :weed:
I hope everyone re-appears when the future of the speedway stadium is in the gallows
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Offline Terry Reynolds

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Re: Prison Sentences
« Reply #17 on: October 25, 2015, 12:50:22 PM »
thanks for the reply, and yes I would bet that once the planning goes forward all those on the 'Andrew ridge etc' will be out moaning about the noise and smoke etc..
tale care..