Author Topic: Danger to free speech - the difference between objection and the taking of offence...  (Read 7285 times)

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Offline Spunkymonkey

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Most laws change and evolve with time. Even the obvious laws like 'thou shalt not kill' have evolved to distinguish between murder, manslaughter, self defence, corporate manslaughter etc.

If someone believes or is taught to believe that the Quran or Bible is the word of God, then in their eyes it will trump man made laws. Unfortunately, god hasn't updated his rule book for several centuries.

The bible says 'thou shalt not take the name of the Lord thy God in vain', but modern laws concerning freedom of speech say that you can.

Most of us see these religious texts as outdated, but extremists don't. To them obeying gods law justifies breaking man's law (or woman's law .... phew ..... that was a bit non pc). A huge problem, but I am not sure what anyone can do to change it.

To some even debating the issue is probably seen as blasphemy. That is why freedom speech is important and so fundamental to our culture and democracy. Without it, no one can challenge or debate existing laws and without this debate these laws will never evolve. Religious extremists seem to be caught in this trap.

Offline moley

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I didn't study law at University, but I did share with 3 law students (and had many late night discussions / arguments with them).

One thing that always struck me as being dodgy was that (effectively) one judge could lay down an interpretation of the law which would set case law and precedent for other cases after it (unless the judgement was appealed and overturned).

So effectively as the number of judges increased, the chances of one striking a dubious interpretation would increase.

I'm not always convinced that the judiciary are aligned with the views of the wider population, or with the intent of  Parliament when the laws are laid down.

And added to the gradual erosion of legal aid funded challenges, meaning that the cases brought are increasingly being done at the behest of the best-off in society... a potent mix to me.

Moley

Offline Tobes

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What makes them more susceptable?

Unchallenged cultural practices. And lets make that clear; these are long held traditions and modes of thinking (another reason to question Iftis ideas on maintaining or even reinforcing that sense of apartness)... In recent years, in a struggle to show their piousness and their committment to their culture, they are becoming more overt and literal in their observances, it seems

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The thing that is denied by many. is that these documents do tell people to behave in exactly the way the Taliban, Al Quaida, Islamic State and Boko Haram  behave. In other words, they are following the doctrine of Islam exactly as prescribed

Sadly, this is an undeniable truth which liberals often fail to acknowledge. Judaism, Islam and Christianity all subscribe to The Old Testament for example. Whats unclear or unambiguous about the following text to a real believer?

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And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ... he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:13-16

... modern Zionism and orthodox Judaism certainly shows similar (though thankfully and for the time being) less extremes of belief, as do the flat-earther creationists stateside who's numbers are swelling. religious fundamentalist principals appear to be on the increase all around the globe.

Make no mistake folks, the new Dark Ages seem to be coming...
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Tobes

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To some even debating the issue is probably seen as blasphemy. That is why freedom speech is important and so fundamental to our culture and democracy. Without it, no one can challenge or debate existing laws and without this debate these laws will never evolve.

Which is why we must never, NEVER allow the excuse of 'offence' to stop people saying what they believe.

This is something which any potential Labour voter really ought to think about before contemplating giving a mandate back to the likes of Snelgrove, whatever else you think might be wrong with the current administration. Things like the Religious Hatred bill would advance the cause of fundamentalists far quicker than any atrocity.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Terry Reynolds

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we cant give the mandate back to annie, theres no carrier bags left.....

Offline Muggins

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I still want an answer to the question "What leads them to this" in the first place, what makes someone go anywhere to be brain washed?

I think Tobes, that I am going to vote for party that invites me in to ask my opinion and doesn't force it's negative opinions on me.  The Conservatives most certainly are a brick wall upon which to bang your head.   

This 'hate' that's going about is particularly pronounced since they took power.  Even if it's not their fault, but lambasting the poor, sick and needy is not helping and is breeding/and resurgence all sorts of other prejudices. 
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline the gorgon

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I still want an answer to the question "What leads them to this" in the first place, what makes someone go anywhere to be brain washed?

On one hand you've got the confirmation bias sort of brainwashing, someone thinks X and finds fellow people who think X, but then they brainwash them into thinking Y and Z as well.  The internet has been a BIG enabler here as it helps people find other like-minded people (forget terrorism just look at anorexia websites that effectively promote it).

On the other are those that fall into it by accident.  Someone is homeless and starving, they go to a soup kitchen and get food and friendship and so the brainwashing begins.  Religious groups have been doing this for ages, when it's a fairly moderate religion it's not an issue. The problems start when it's fundamentalists.

Finally there is Stockholm Syndrome were people who have been kidnapped/imprisoned end-up sympathising with their captors.

Offline Outoftowner

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I'm afraid that I have no answer Muggins. I just observe and comment on what is going on. I cannot look into the mind of a robotic maniac.


https://hra-news.org/en/soheil-arabi-still-risk-execution

An Iranian, Soheil Arabi, dared debate Islam on Facebook. I believe that he was hung a few hours ago.


Meanwhile, The Organization of the Islamic Conference (OIC) are doing their best to get the United Nations to prevent anyone criticising Islam or the member countries of OIC.
What's it all about?

Offline Simon

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Sadly, this is an undeniable truth which liberals often fail to acknowledge. Judaism, Islam and Christianity all subscribe to The Old Testament for example. Whats unclear or unambiguous about the following text to a real believer?

Quote
And the LORD spake unto Moses, saying ... he that blasphemeth the name of the LORD, he shall surely be put to death, and all the congregation shall certainly stone him. Leviticus 24:13-16

... modern Zionism and orthodox Judaism certainly shows similar (though thankfully and for the time being) less extremes of belief, as do the flat-earther creationists stateside who's numbers are swelling. religious fundamentalist principals appear to be on the increase all around the globe.

Leviticus is completely bonkers, although it's a good source for poking fun at religious types. But (although I'm no theologian) wasn't all that swept away when Jesus was crucified for all of our sins? I suspect quite a lot of christians would agree, although personally I'm sceptical about the bit where he came back to life afterwards, and about his mother being a virgin. I still know quite a few christians who are also good people.

Zionists have utterly failed the average jew. The Israeli government's actions towards the Palestinian people in the last few years deserve condemmnation. Yet comdemnation of the Israeli government is apparently anti semetic??? Congratulations, zionists, you've spread a little more hatred (although I refuse to hate jews just because they are jews).

The jihadist types who claim to be acting for Allah have utterly failed the average muslim. Just what do you hope to achieve by cutting people's heads off, or kidnapping a bunch of girls to stop their education? Congratulations, jihadists, you've spread a little more hatred. And yet I still refuse to hate muslims just because they are muslims.

Could we please stop the hating? I may be an atheist, but I recognise that most religions start with instructions to not murder each other, not steal from each other and to take care of those less furtunate than you.
We are all in this together, but some of us are more in it than others (with apologies to George Orwell)

Offline Muggins

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Cheers, Simon. children are not born hating or having a religion. They have to be taught to hate. 

What life have they been brought into, what family, what circumstances and fate, lead them to join sects? 

Going out to murder innocent people and kill yourself in the process is NOT a normal or natural condition of the human being.  The internet won't shift their stance if they do not have it in them already.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Tobes

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Sorry Simon, but I have to correct you.

The Old Testament still forms the basic tenets upon which all three religions are based. Modern theologians may pick and choose which bits appeal on any given day and whatever is convenient to the theological point they may be trying to make - but the ten commandments are there, writ large, and still form the basis of law in this country even to this day.

And as for the promotions of 'love'? I guess that depends upon whether you were lucky enough to live in the relatively enlightened last 200 years - though even then, you'd still be likely to be a victim if you demonstrated any non conformity, even if you didn't pay with your life. Before then, for nearly two millennium, the ledger of love versus hate has to be weighed against the crusades, the inquisitors, the witch burnings, the pogroms and forced conversions, the persecution of heretics, the persecution of homosexuals, the persecution of pagans, the subjugation of women, widespread corruption, institutionalised hypocrisy, institutionalised sexual misconduct with minors, excommunications, the selling of indulgences, political intrigue, the gathering of vast wealth whilst the poor starve and the whole plethora of evil thoughts, words and deeds conducted at the very highest levels within the organisation of all three major faiths.

Whether or not similar evils are committed by secular organizations is immaterial to the grossest hypocrisy of all; that in the case of religion, they are committed in the name of a loving, forgiving and supposedly merciful God.

I have no doubt that mAny good honest people are influenced to do good by religion. But the saddest thought of all is that it requires religion to encourage them to do it in the first place. MAny fantastic things have been done because of religion - but much evil too. But when I look the world now, I see good deeds which are done increasingly for the sake of doing good, not for after-earthly reward... whereas I also see an ever increasing number of foul acts committed in the name of God. Belief is not a carte blanche for irrational or destructive behaviour anymore.


our culture faces some choices - evolve or go back to our caves.
I do not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it - [attributed to] Voltaire... 'Entia non sunt multiplicanda praeter necessita' - William of Occam.... 'You have a right to feel offended, but just cos you are offended doesn't mean you are right'

Offline Spunkymonkey

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Before then, for nearly two millennium, the ledger of love versus hate has to be weighed against the crusades, the inquisitors, the witch burnings, the pogroms and forced conversions, the persecution of heretics, the persecution of homosexuals, the persecution of pagans, the subjugation of women, widespread corruption, institutionalised hypocrisy, institutionalised sexual misconduct with minors, excommunications, the selling of indulgences, political intrigue, the gathering of vast wealth whilst the poor starve and the whole plethora of evil thoughts, words and deeds conducted at the very highest levels within the organisation of all three major faiths.

Thought you were talking about the BBC during the 70's for a minute.

Offline Geoff Reid

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Today is a Sunday so, ss many 'people of faith' attend the various 'houses of [their] god', and some of their offspring are subjected to Sunday 'school', here's some nourishing atheist food which also touches on the subject of offence.


Offline Mart

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I went to the tip, it was well attended.

I also went to Halfords (part of my ongoing quest to bring light to all parts of my dashboard, I had to remove the entire centre console to replace the cigar lighter bulb. Halfords do not stock it. Truly the road to enlightenment is strewn with potholes.) it too was well attended and I had to queue patiently to make a donation.

I have been watching many episodes of Ancient Aliens on H2, it seems to me the programme makers view of the world is as credible as anyone else's . It also appeals because self denial and martyrdom are not required. Also there is no singing, self flagellation presumably optional.
Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.

Offline Muggins

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Well Mart, I think that's a fine religion you follow there. 

Thou shalt keep your house and garden clean.

Thou shalt bring light to the world. (Yes, one man can make a difference!)

Home watching tele, doing no one any harm? - Blessed are the peacemakers.
Oi! Listen mush. Old eyes, remember? I’ve been around the block a few times. More than a few. They’ve knocked down the blocks I’ve been around and rebuilt them as bigger blocks. Super blocks. And I’ve been round them as well.  The Doctor (Night Terrors)

Offline Mart

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I am indeed a peaceful soul.

I rebel by resolutely not rebelling about anything anyone else is rebelling against.

I'd prefer to rebel against stuff like weather forecasters who inform me that up to 'a centimetre of snow is going to fall'. I object to that on many levels.

So wrong.

Sometimes I think you have to march right in and demand your rights, even if you don’t know what your rights are, or who the person is you’re talking to. Then, on the way out, slam the door.